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so... fun question.

If the librariran is in a rhino, can the rhino move and then the librarian use such powers before it decides to deploy or not?

The rhino's movement doesn't take the place of the unit's movement inside, does it? it simply limits it post deploymet.

i.e. units with heavy weapons, even if the vehicle has not moved, are consided to have 'moved' if they deploy from the vehicle... though I suppose that is a limitation on the shooting phase ...

*sigh* brain HUrTz.

Thoughts?

I don't understand the question.

How is he in a rhino if he's deepstriking?

er, probably should've clarified, but let's run with it... suppose he uses the transportation power that lets him and his unit deepstrike up to 24" away.

This power has to be used at the start of his movement phase.

The Dragon wrote:er, probably should've clarified, but let's run with it... suppose he uses the transportation power that lets him and his unit deepstrike up to 24" away.

This power has to be used at the start of his movement phase.

Not His movement phase; Your Movement phase, is you begin moving any models you are no longer at the start of your movement phase therefore if you move the Rhino, or attempt to disembark from the Rhino it is then too late to use gate of infinity.

2 further notes:
1)Models do not have individual Phases; you the Player does. You start your Movement phase, and in your movement phase you complete any actions for your models including the activation of abilities, and those models movement.

2)Gate of infinity moves the Librarian and any squad he is joined with; this will never result in the movement of a transport vehicle. However, you may use the power while embarked in a transport, but the transport stays put and you place your unit via the deepstrike rules.

There is no specific answer in the rules, however;

If the vehicle moves, the passengers count as moving for firing purposes, but of course the movement phase takes place before the shooting phase.That being said;

If the vehicle has moved, passengers may disembark but may not move any further. Sounds like that means the have made use of their movement phase with the vehicle moving. Here I would say that the Librarian would be prohibited from using a psychic power that must be used at the beginning of his movement phase.

If the vehicle has not moved, the passengers may disembark and then move normally. In this instance I would say that the Librarian could disembark and then use a psychic power that could be used at the start of his movement phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not His movement phase; Your Movement phase, is you begin moving any models you are no longer at the start of your movement phase therefore if you move the Rhino, or attempt to disembark from the Rhino it is then too late to use gate of infinity.
2 further notes:
1)Models do not have individual Phases; you the Player does. You start your Movement phase, and in your movement phase you complete any actions for your models including the activation of abilities, and those models movement.

Except that in the Space Marine Codex it states under Gate of Infinity, "This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."

Kommissar Kel wrote:2)Gate of infinity moves the Librarian and any squad he is joined with; this will never result in the movement of a transport vehicle. However, you may use the power while embarked in a transport, but the transport stays put and you place your unit via the deepstrike rules.

Yes, the Librarian could never move the rhino since transports and passengers are two separate units.

I'd just like to point out that, that in does indeed say His movement phase, just like Might of the Ancients is done at the beginning of His Assault phase.

Aside from that...I was never even suggesting that he could move the Rhino, but rather the possibiltiy that the vehicle could move ...say 12" and then he could use his psychic ability to move himself and his unit up to another 24".

I'd also like to point out that his inability to "move further" as debated is coming from the disembarkation rules for vehicles.

In this instance he and his unit are NOT disembarking.

If a unit were to stay in a moving vehicle through the movemement phase, the only thing the rules are stating is that for the explicit purposes of shooting, they are treated as having moved.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If we are going to say the teleport is using the movement rules per disembarkation then does that intimate the possiblity of being able to telelport from a static vehicle and then being allowed to move/shoot/assault normally/

-- I certainly think not.

time wizard wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not His movement phase; Your Movement phase, is you begin moving any models you are no longer at the start of your movement phase therefore if you move the Rhino, or attempt to disembark from the Rhino it is then too late to use gate of infinity.
2 further notes:
1)Models do not have individual Phases; you the Player does. You start your Movement phase, and in your movement phase you complete any actions for your models including the activation of abilities, and those models movement.

Except that in the Space Marine Codex it states under Gate of Infinity, "This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."

The librarian's movement phase and the librarian's player's movement phase are the exact same thing--the movement phase in which that player moves his models.

Are you trying to claim that Librarians would also get individual Assault and Shooting phases, since other powers reference "the Librarian's Assault Phase" and "the Librarian's Shooting Phase" as well?

And just to drive the point home, look at Storm Caller in the Space Wolf codex: "At the beginning of his turn, the Rune Priest ... Until the beginning of the Rune Priest's next turn, he ..." If you're going to claim that the Space Marine wording gives the Librarian his own movement phase, then I look forward to you explaining how the Rune Priest's own separate turn works.

How about the librarian's movement phase begins when you have the opportunity to move him (or choose not to do so). This is a subset of the player's movement phase. Other subsets could include the rune priest's movement phase and/or the madd dok's movement phase and/or etc..

Hmm... if your argument is "the Librarian may not use this power" because "after he has deep struck" "it is no longer the start of turn" A, B, C respectively, Librarian denoted a.
if aB then C therefore not A

I will make fun of that argument by saying that a different unit is the subject of B named b.
if bB then C therefore not A

Or put differently, if your argument is that you aren't allowed to use the psychic power at the start of the movement phase because the Librarian has deep struck, it can be argued that you aren't allowed to use the any "at the beginning of the movement phase" if ANY unit has been rolled for reserves, since this is exactly the same cause-effect. The rules on page 94 is very specific that you may not delay reserve rolls nor delay deploying them at all, so psychic powers at the beginning of the movement phase either happens after reserves has been rolled and deployed or they don't happen at all.

There is an alternate interpretation in that there is a subsection of the movement phase we'll call the "start of the movement phase", and that since you aren't allowed to do more than one thing per phase, unless the rules specifically tell you to, then a Librarian which has not had a mandatory effect happen to him may use his psychic power.
This interpretation is the one I'm most comfortable with, but it has no firm ground in RAW.

yeah okay... see where we are now?

So in other words, if you ever have ANYTHING come in from reserves, you can't use any model's power which would have been used at the start of the movement phase since THAT is when Reserves/Deepstrike,etc. occur.

So certainly you can't have the beginning of your movement phase....after... the beginning of your movement phase can you? lol, unless... and we're reaaaaallllly stretching here ... Reserves happen at the beginning of YOUR movement phase.... and their powers happen at the beginning of THEIRS...

which woulf of course intimate that the Player's Movement Phase really consist of A) The Player's Beginning... i.e. Reserves, certain powers, then B) Individual Models' own movement phases within the Player's movement phase

BTW, good fun poking there with the logic argument.

Mahtamori wrote:Hmm... if your argument is "the Librarian may not use this power" because "after he has deep struck" "it is no longer the start of turn" A, B, C respectively, Librarian denoted a.
if aB then C therefore not A

I will make fun of that argument by saying that a different unit is the subject of B named b.
if bB then C therefore not A

Or put differently, if your argument is that you aren't allowed to use the psychic power at the start of the movement phase because the Librarian has deep struck, it can be argued that you aren't allowed to use the any "at the beginning of the movement phase" if ANY unit has been rolled for reserves, since this is exactly the same cause-effect. The rules on page 94 is very specific that you may not delay reserve rolls nor delay deploying them at all, so psychic powers at the beginning of the movement phase either happens after reserves has been rolled and deployed or they don't happen at all.

There is an alternate interpretation in that there is a subsection of the movement phase we'll call the "start of the movement phase", and that since you aren't allowed to do more than one thing per phase, unless the rules specifically tell you to, then a Librarian which has not had a mandatory effect happen to him may use his psychic power.
This interpretation is the one I'm most comfortable with, but it has no firm ground in RAW.

except delay here means that you can't keep them in reserve longer when you want them to be in reserve....

at the start of the movement phase the librarian is not on the table, and isn't on the table until it has already moved. therefore.... it can't use the power.

So, how do you start your day?

The Dragon wrote:So in other words, if you ever have ANYTHING come in from reserves, you can't use any model's power which would have been used at the start of the movement phase since THAT is when Reserves/Deepstrike,etc. occur.

Pretty much, yeah.


The usual workaround is to allow all your start of phase effects to apply for different units. So if you have multiple units that all have to do something at the start of the phase, you can perform all of those actions and assume that they happen simultaneously.

But that would mean that any of those start of phase actions can not be used as a trigger for other start of phase actions (ie: you couldn't Deep Strike a unit and then cast a psychic power on them that needs to be cast at the start of the phase, as the two things are theoretically happening at the same time... but you could Deep Strike a unit and still cast a start of phase power with a Librarian that is already on the table on a unit that was also already on the table).

So that also doesn't allow the Librarian himself to take any other action before casting the power, as if he does, then it's no longer the start of the movement phase for him.