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Driving up to go to this sortie, gods help me.

WhiteRaven wrote:

Jay_Daboyz wrote:
We are pre-judging composition.

I originally had concerns with the subjective system. However, what Jay didn't clearly lay out is that they are not only pre-judging comp, but they are willing to do it multiple times for each player providng a score and feedback each time so that the player can adjust their list and come away with a comp/power balance that they are comfortable with prior to ever attending. It is also not simply 1 or 2 people's subjective opinions, it is a hefty 6 person council.

Having had to do simply list verification for Warmasters, I cannot imagine how much work an undertaking like this will take, but I applaud the effort!

I look forward to a tournament not over run by Interweb lists and people who can spam the latest mechanic with the best mathematical edge. Instead, I am looking forward to games against good generals who are thinking outside the box and using the tools they have selected within the system Da Boyz lays out.

Its still a competitive system, it just changes the angle of attack for this particular competition.

Later,
WR

For those who haven't gone and read the document here is the direct link: https://daboyzgt.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/comp-write-up.pdf

Thing is, their examples have already told me I would be hosed on comp. I run gunline IG, two 35 man platoons, instead of the prevalant mech-vet spam. They've already declared that gunline IG will recieve a bad comp score. "Gun lines are a perfect example of this “abusive factor”. The council will score this type of list accordingly." I'm not going to change the core of my army because they don't like it comp-wise. I'd rather not attend and save my self the time and effort. Oh, and those two blobs are the only similar units in the list. Two different HQs. Two different Elties. No Fast. Three different Heavy, even the platoon Commands are configured differently. But because it's gunline and they have a personal dislike of that style army, I would be hosed.

Still have that Lizardman IG army too. Used it at the Nova Open.
Seriously, I've been attending the US GTs (over 20 of them) ever since the first US GT in 1997. This style of comp is NOT what I think of when I think of "old-school GT". Jay, I don't recall them ever using subjective comp, but I'll take your word for it. At lest until I go through all the packets I still have............ I do hope the event does well, but as long as subjective comp is a large part of the scoring, I will not like it.

Blackmoor wrote:
Isn't this the Australian comp system and what they do at their GT's down under? It sounds interesting and I would like to give it a try.

I know on the Fantasy side, they use comp differential to modify the battle scores and affect matches. Comp isn't a lump score that is added on at the end of the tourney.

I think the problem with your guys seemed comping style is that it hurts armies without a lot of choices severely. I could still make a solid SW's list that would probably comp out pretty well while those poor bastards running DH, WH, SM, DE, Tau, and Orks pretty much get boned simply by playing. Or if they take a list that gives them a decent chance the comp hammer smacks it

Good luck though. Just expect a lot of 3+ armor save armies due to the comp rules. Let me know if I'm wrong. I don't mind being wrong in the least

Weekend isn't booked for once but refuse to play in composition events. Ditch composition please.

http://daboyzgt.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/comp-write-up.pdf

Ride the "Toilet of Judgment" and win?

Hi

Hulksmash - if you read their composition guidelines, they factor age of book into their marking. Therefore old books with very limited useful selections are given leeway compared to newer books when it comes to repetition.

The leaders of Da Boyz are very experienced, and every attendee gets the chance to get feedback early. I trust them to be fair and consistent

Cheers,
Nate

I'm looking forward to this GT, should be blast.

I've been going to GT's since around '99 or 2000. I do remember there comp being subjective. I remember bringing my Eldar to my first GT was practically all troops and 1 or 2 aspect warrior's and I got low to mid comp.

I don't see the big deal, they are letting you know what your possible score will be before you go. If you have any hesitation before going why not send in your list and see what you get? I've been to daboyz GT for the last 3 years and the attendance has done nothing but go up. Last year was in the eighties, so there doing something right!

You have to be registered and paid for the list pre-judging to take place.

@Carlos

I read the examples which scared me because most of the lists I saw in the "hardcore" category were anything but. I'm sure it'll be an excellent event for thos attending. The format just isn't for me. Limiting what I can bring by lowering my chances to win if I bring the list I like means it's just not worth flying across the country for. But I bet it'll be a great local event

Good luck to everyone attending!

That was my only problem; that a lot of the lists shown as "hardcore" were ... well, not optimized or netlisted at all, and a lot of the lists shown as only middling comp were downright "bad." It was hard to decipher what you'd actually get when the commentary did not match the lists.

That said, the fact that they've provided examples of what is and isn't ok is pretty much the kicker here - the tournament is fine, b/c there's utter transparency; people passionate about running their events should be given leeway to do so as they see fit, so long as they share what's to expect with those paying good money to attend. This has been more than accomplished ... so it may be a little much for those of us not going (or even going haha) to carp overly on their approach.

Exactly MVB. I have no problems with the event because everyone going in is going to know what they've got. Transparency for the win!

You are correct. Composition is not used that much anymore (I agree there is a lot of negative with it) and the goal is to be as transparent as possible. I want this to be on the same level as painting.

You never really sure what you are going to get in painting for an event, but you have a good idea before you go. For example if you have only three colors then you are going get a lower score or if you army is well painted, based, and converted army then you are going to receive a higher score.

We the examples and pre-judging I hope we can be as transparent as we can be.

The only important thing to consider is whether it will accomplish what you want it to (the whole field bringing varied and fun lists), or if it will simply cause the two "bad" results of composition ...

1) Hardcore competitors "break" the comp by repeatedly pre-submitting until they have the most subtly badass list possible, while people with less free time on their hands bring the best list they can, get nailed on comp, and can't win regardless of their performance

2) Casual players bring super fluffy lists to max comp, and get their teeth mauled in by both the hardcore competitors and the stronger players that didn't have time to "fluff out" their lists around the comp system

You *CAN* end up with a stratification of "usual suspect" GT winners who game the system, followed by casual but strong competitors who lost comp points by not having the time to learn a "different" version of 40k list building, followed by really pissed off casual players who are angry at all the hardcore lists at a "comp" tournament kicking their teeth in.

I think the transparency helps with that, and you've got a lot of people giving you and your crew praise for the veteranship of the council ... so I think it'll be fine, but make sure you're accounting for those inherent risks of comp. Pissed off people with fluffy lists in last place is never fun for anyone TO-wise after the fact.




Caveat, b/c the internet is toneless - totally in support of this event, for its transparency and the commitment visible in its TO(s), regardless of my own personal hesitations about comp.

How will DaBoyz feel about using models outside of the 40k/GW range? I am planning using WW2 scale models (1/35) scale to represent my Hydras and Colossus Siege Mortar.

My problem with a 'comp' event is that the points you gain in comp are not equal to the points you lose when you inevitably get massacred by some top-tier netlist.

A list that is mid-comp (60 points) will almost definitely get massacred by a top-tier list (comp 0) So there goes 48 of the 60 points they gained by being 'fluffy'.

But if you read the info packet, you'd notice "best general" for this GT is comp+BP.

As such, there is absolutely nothing to gain by bringing an optimized list. Unless you want to pay $50 to win 5 games.

hyv3mynd wrote:But if you read the info packet, you'd notice "best general" for this GT is comp+BP.

As such, there is absolutely nothing to gain by bringing an optimized list. Unless you want to pay $50 to win 5 games.

OR you could get rid of a lot of work/drama by dropping comp...

Just sayin....

Chumbalaya wrote:I'm on the fence over bringing my optimized Loganwing and just screwing comp or taking the gimpiest of all gimp lists EVAR and getting max comp.

Either way, I'd be all for getting a game in. If all the internet celebs show up Friday we could do our own Whisky Challenge

There will be open gaming Friday night.

Tabletop Hooligans and the WarBanner plan on doing some interviews through out the weekend. We also plan on doing our own video and taking a lot of pictures throughout the weekend.

There is also going to be old grudge match on Friday night between 2008 AdeptiCon Team Champions to see what will be taken to next years AdeptiCon team tournament. The winner gets to choose.

I'm pretty stoked for this. As a local, I'm looking forward to getting steam rolled by some of the heavy hitters.

MVBrandt wrote:1) Hardcore competitors "break" the comp by repeatedly pre-submitting until they have the most subtly badass list possible

IIRC, you can only submit two lists beforehand.

I'm thinking about making the long trip for this one, all depends on my hockey schedule. A Sunday night game will torpedo the whole plan.

Looks like you're of a similar mindset/playstyle as the DorkaMorka guys in Boston, and their last event was a blast.

Less than 10 spots left for 40k (we have 73 spots filled to date)

It's gonna be HUGE, Rochester, HUGE.

I will be making the long trek out to New York and I'm looking forward to this one. I haven't been to a GT since 2004 (Detroit) and right now Cleveland has nothing going on tournament wise for the rest of the year. I'll do my best to not let my KOS get annihilated. As I type this, someone, somewhere is reviewing my ork list for comp.

Was there an example of a lousy ork list or did I miss it??

Ach, comp hasn't been needed since the Rhino Rush!

But my personal feelings on comp aside, good luck to everyone! It's great to see these Indy GT's getting so large. Have fun everyone.

hyv3mynd wrote:But if you read the info packet, you'd notice "best general" for this GT is comp+BP.

As such, there is absolutely nothing to gain by bringing an optimized list. Unless you want to pay $50 to win 5 games.

No see... that just proves my point.

Lets run the numbers.

Joe brings his Marines of UltraFluff (a little known chapter). He scores a 60 in comp. But he is a good general and knows how to use his list, so he wins his first 4 games. getting massacres in 2 of his games, (48 points) and getting the Primary and secondary in his other 2 games. (35 points) for a total of 166 battle points.

Dan brings is Marines of DikStomp (a well known chapter... at least at tournaments) and scores a 0 in comp. A list like this has little problem totally dominating the first 4 games when everyone else is bringing lists that are comping in the 60s.

so these 2 lists meet in the finals. Joe's UltraFluffs have a difficult time holding back the cheese of the DikStomps and Dan gets another massacre.

Totals: Joe has 166 battle points plus his 60 comp is 226. Dan has 240 battle points and a 0 in comp for a total of 240 points. So...because Joe gave up a full 48 points to Dan, he can only give up another 12 between ALL 4 GAMES. So if he misses so much as a secondary objective once in 4 battles, he is out of it.

THAT is why I don't like comp. The points you give up in comp by bringing a top-tier list are never equal to the points you give up in battle by bring a comp-friendly list.

You want a comp system that works? You have to make comp and battle have equal value either by having them worth the same number of points, or decreasing the margin between a win and a loss

Believe me mate, you're preaching to the choir. I'm not a fan of comp, mostly because without hard restrictions, it's hard to objectively score armies from different codexs.

I do support the event and already registered because for the most part, the club members are great guys and fun to play with. They also provide some of the best terrain you'll ever play on.

They held a 3 round primer last weekend that drew 24 players from buffalo to ithaca. Only 1 of 24 brought an optimized competative list, scored almost max bp and it still wasn't enough to place after all soft scores were in(he did lose out in painting and some sports).

So I guess the comp format accomplished its goal. There was no drama that I saw, they gave out several hundred dollars in prizes, and the comp judges took time to discuss anyones score 1 on 1 if they wanted.

Based on that, I think the event will be great. I was one of the top 5 comp scores and my only loss was due to my own blunders and my opponent's dice rolls being on fire.

Only 2 Months To The Event!

Only two months to go to the 2010 DaBoyz GT. Tickets are going fast. In fact, as of today, we have only 5 tickets left for the 40k event. Plenty of tickets are still available for the 40K Apocalypse, Warhammer Fantasy, or the WarMachine/ Hordes events, but players planning to participate should get their tickets before the events are sold out.

The source of this impressive interest might be the free cookies or the raffle tickets you receive every time you lose a game. At this point we are not sure, but we can state that we have over a $1000 in loot to give away in our raffle! The ETC players will also giving out free T-shirts throughout the weekend! Who wouldn’t want one of these gems?

In addition, Tabletop Hooligans and The Warbanner Podcasts will be there throughout the whole weekend to catch all the grudge matches between internet personalities.

Here is the critical information again:

DaBoyz GT November 12th – 14th , 2010


DaBoyz GT is featuring a two-day (13th-14th), 80-player Warhammer 40,000 Grand Tournament, one day 30-player Warhammer Fantasy Independent Tournament, a Large Apocalypse event, and a 32 player Warmachine/Hordes event. Since both of the Warhammer tournaments are Independent Circuit Qualifying events, the respective winners will be extended invitations by Games Workshop to attend the National Tournament in 2011, which will be held in Las Vegas, Nevada.

This is the fifth year in the row we have run this tournament. The event will be held on the campus of the University of Rochester. Awesome terrain, prizes, and opponents; awards include hand painted trophies. So, bring your best 40k, Warhammer Fantasy, Apocalypse and Warmachine/Hordes game to compete at the DaBoyz independent Grand Tournament!

More information can found at the following website:
http://daboyzgt.wordpress.com/da-boyz-gt/

You never really sure what you are going to get in painting for an event

HUH?!?! Hehe JK

I agree with Hive. I played in the primer as well and it was fun. Jay and the group ran a great event on great terrain so I am really looking forward to the event.

I am hoping to have my small light booth set up to take pics of models for the site on the Friday of the event. Jay would that be okay? It frees up more time for me to play on sat and sun hehe.

hyv3mynd wrote:Believe me mate, you're preaching to the choir. I'm not a fan of comp, mostly because without hard restrictions, it's hard to objectively score armies from different codexs.

I do support the event and already registered because for the most part, the club members are great guys and fun to play with. They also provide some of the best terrain you'll ever play on.

They held a 3 round primer last weekend that drew 24 players from buffalo to ithaca. Only 1 of 24 brought an optimized competative list, scored almost max bp and it still wasn't enough to place after all soft scores were in(he did lose out in painting and some sports).

So I guess the comp format accomplished its goal. There was no drama that I saw, they gave out several hundred dollars in prizes, and the comp judges took time to discuss anyones score 1 on 1 if they wanted.

Based on that, I think the event will be great. I was one of the top 5 comp scores and my only loss was due to my own blunders and my opponent's dice rolls being on fire.

This is a strange bit of logic....

Lets take this logic to the logical conclusion in other ways...

1) The best Students shouldn't be hired for the job if they came from the top schools. WHOA buddy! you graduated from princeton?? sorry thats cheesy! you can't be hired... where did that beaver college resume go? it smelled like apples so he gets hired for creativity...

2) Sorry... Giants. You can't win the superbowl this year because you run plays that are on the internet. Yup. Turns out Everyone likes to run pass and block. You can only win if your team does something original.

3) OH! look you have a calculator! you can't earn more than a C on this math test now....

I mean, honestly If I was more awake... I could come up with a more coherent argument and even more absurd but logical conclusions... But I've been up for 20 hours and can't now.

I mean seriously... you are using comp to PUNISH.... you really should try to reward people for things... like offer bonus points for taking weird things into their lists... like 20 free bonus points for running a maxxed unit of vespids. Ord 20 bonus battle points for taking no transports in a marine list...

I hate comp, but I hate comp that punishes people for bringing what they want more. Rewarding people for taking challenges is more acceptable for me... but still undesirable.