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Seaward wrote:

Right, the one written in first person? By that logic, it's also completely canon that the orks will in fact fight and kill everything in the galaxy, because they constantly say they will. That seems contradictory to the notion that the Imperium eventually wins, yet they're both published in the rulebooks!

Some sections of the book are written from the perspective of the faction they represent. Generally speaking, whenever the author uses "we" rather than the third person, such is the case. Of course the Imperium doesn't think it's going to lose. Napoleon thought he was going to win Waterloo. Simply believing something doesn't make it factual.

Somehow, you ignore the orks disability to spell defeat....
And it is canon ( for orks ) to think they win. Since every single faction is entitled to believe in their ultimate victory.

Didin't refute the possibilty to loose ( which is unlikely and you should remember what happened when GW put cadia on stake )
but I deem to claim the same chance as all the others. Thus official backup in a BRB is canon.

The Imperium is not in the position of Napoleon Bonaparte.
It may look like a point to make, but you know what: chaos is as wrong as everyone else since its creatures also believe they win.
So now were back to possibilities.
N°1 undisputable contender is GW's intend to keep the eternal war setting. There is no interest in a winner. Guess its a draw and always
will be. Fact: The timeline is in a stasis field.

Happier with facts?

@Seaward: I totally disagree. The audience experiences drama by assuming perspectives. They can, of course, assume multiple perspectives throughout a story. Indeed, the resulting tension heightens drama. But if the audience identifies with neither the protagonits nor the antagonists, the result is a dramatic failure. With regard to the conflict, the audience says "so what?"

Manchu wrote:To echo OP along a slightly divergent strand of thought, I don't like all this "CSM are actually anti-heroes" stuff. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is doing this with the Night Lords and, while his writing is good, it's pretty annoying to see these evil-doers portrayed as noble.

Even back 20 years ago in the Lost and Damned and Slaves to Darkness books, one of the big themes of Chaos is that the chaos powers feed on corruptions of positive motives. I think it's always been implied that the traitor legions originally fell for what were noble reasons (other than the Wold Eaters, who have always been just bloodthirsty).

I think that having villains who are Evil just to be Evil is boring - villains who think they're heroic are much more compelling. Plus, in the real world you don't have moustache-twirling villains who are Evil because they are Evil; most people see themselves as good, or as defending themselves while being no worse than anyone else, or are just indifferent to morality. Good 'ol Adolf in WW2 believed that he was saving the German race from destruction, he saw himself as the last desperate hope for salvation, not as any kind of villain.

Warprat wrote:[quote=Seaward
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

This from Warhammer 40 Wiki:

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, most of the Alpha Legion does not reside in the Warp, but rather roams the galaxy in warbands of warriors, each of which is trained to act independently of each other in pursuit of their greater cause. In this way the Alpha Legion was by and large the only Traitor Legion not to succumb to the mutations of Chaos, an outcome that may also have been dictated by their continued secret loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I'm sure many of the warbands believe they are fighting only for Chaos...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Warprat wrote:
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

This from Warhammer 40 Wiki:

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, most of the Alpha Legion does not reside in the Warp, but rather roams the galaxy in warbands of warriors, each of which is trained to act independently of each other in pursuit of their greater cause. In this way the Alpha Legion was by and large the only Traitor Legion not to succumb to the mutations of Chaos, an outcome that may also have been dictated by their continued secret loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I'm sure many of the warbands believe they are fighting only for Chaos...

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Er, wrong.

The problem is that the old background is now entirely thrown into doubt by the new background.

This is why all the stuff you'd like to see hasn't been seen.

And, sadly, GW/BL haven't seen fit to illuminate us further, instead thinking that we need TWO Dark Angel HH books that still really haven't told us anything we didn't already know...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Opinion stated as fact is still, sadly, only opinion.

Say, opinion is close to onion, isn't it?

Furthermore, why all the hate on the Legion?

Did they shout out "Definitely and most assuredly NOT For the Emperor!" when they were stealing your lunch money?

BearersOfSalvation wrote:I think that having villains who are Evil just to be Evil is boring - villains who think they're heroic are much more compelling.

Done. To. Death. Seriously, it's like everyone wanting to play the one noble dark elf after R. A. Salvatore's books took off. And as it turns out, the Drow in general are far more interesting than Drizzt. Same is true of the CSM, IMO. Word Bearers don't think what they're doing is "good" at all. They act according to a set of principles, of course, but none of them could be articulated as "good" except with the dullest sense of irony. There is a such thing as doing something for the sake of evil.

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Warprat wrote:
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

This from Warhammer 40 Wiki:

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, most of the Alpha Legion does not reside in the Warp, but rather roams the galaxy in warbands of warriors, each of which is trained to act independently of each other in pursuit of their greater cause. In this way the Alpha Legion was by and large the only Traitor Legion not to succumb to the mutations of Chaos, an outcome that may also have been dictated by their continued secret loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I'm sure many of the warbands believe they are fighting only for Chaos...

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Er, wrong.

The problem is that the old background is now entirely thrown into doubt by the new background.

This is why all the stuff you'd like to see hasn't been seen.

And, sadly, GW/BL haven't seen fit to illuminate us further, instead thinking that we need TWO Dark Angel HH books that still really haven't told us anything we didn't already know...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Opinion stated as fact is still, sadly, only opinion.

Say, opinion is close to onion, isn't it?

Furthermore, why all the hate on the Legion?

Did they shout out "Definitely and most assuredly NOT For the Emperor!" when they were stealing your lunch money?

No, they shouted "For The Emperor" when stealing my lunch money ironicaly. That's why I need to get the word out there that they were lying.
Anyways, like I said originally there's a lot of thread and posts popping insinuating there's some other intersting motive or side to the Alpha Legion to which I reply no there isn't. They really are just some traitor legion and btw that's fine. Indeed threads like this usually draw out proof to the contrary of the original post but so far there's been none becasue the Alphas are brocholli.....or perhaps Vanilla is a better term?

Maybe, and in the end you might actually be right.

But right now... no one knows!

I am glad that DA wrote LEGION, as it has created a lot to talk about and ponder.

But I'm a bit worried that DA will never actually continue that story and we'll be left with a mess!

I dunno. I think the "maybe they're good . . . ?" line is just another aspect of their villainy. People inside the 40k universe might be confused by their subterfuge (although the Imperium doesn't seem to buy it) but I see no reason why IRL people shouldn't see through it.

OP is 100% correct, IMO.

OP and Manchu are 100% something.

Maybe even right.

Ignoring the 'game changer' that DA threw out there though is a bit 'sour grapes' and 'rain on parade' but, hey, whatever!

The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

Alpharius wrote:OP and Manchu are 100% something.

In agreement.

Alpharius wrote:The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

They've always been interesting. If they weren't interesting already, there's nothing Abnett could have done for them.

Manchu wrote:I dunno. I think the "maybe they're good . . . ?" line is just another aspect of their villainy. People inside the 40k universe might be confused by their subterfuge (although the Imperium doesn't seem to buy it) but I see no reason why IRL people shouldn't see through it.

OP is 100% correct, IMO.

Seriously you took the words right out of my mouth. I can see why Imperial Citizenry get confused. They don't have a list of Legions with Traitor and Loyal boxes checked but what's with the real life people?!! We do have a list!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:OP and Manchu are 100% something.

Maybe even right.

Ignoring the 'game changer' that DA threw out there though is a bit 'sour grapes' and 'rain on parade' but, hey, whatever!

The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

He made their history more interesting but I would say nothing at all has changed with what they do post-heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Ok its not bad, its terrible.
The galaxy is screwed if any race fails like the eldar did. So how do you expect to save the galaxy in absence of mankind?
Because, chaos don't need them and there is no guarantee of chaos ceasing to exist as they may find new victims.
The rulebook clearly put M41 at the point where the IoM's fall would ruin the galaxy.
I agree it was reasonable to contact the AL, but then I would not buy into visions as those aren't of a pre-set future but a possible one.
And chaos seems to be aware of the use of visions and alters them sometimes. IMO the cabal was screwed when they attempted
to know of the future and alter it. Eldar try this all the time, and did they prevent their fall?

You sound like you actually think humanity ultimately wins in the 40K universe. It doesn't.

Chaos does in fact need humanity. Think of human emotion as the engine that powers Chaos; without it, would Chaos cease to be? Dunno. I think so, though. Someone better-versed on what exactly Chaos is could probably answer that.

If your point is that Alpha Legion could've been duped by Chaos into switching sides, sure, it's entirely possible. It doesn't change their motivations, though, nor the fact that they avoid the Eye of Terror, aren't favored with a bunch of mutations, and pretty generally just do their own thing without regard to what the Ruinous Powers would want them to be doing.

Correct. Chaos is actually one of the only factions that can never win. It needs sentient life to exist. The basic theme of Chaos is that it is always destoying itself (hence the the name chaos - no plan here). As for why the big 4 were around 60 million years ago you guys seemed to be really brainwashed by your eccelsiarchy sunday school. Despite what they may tell you there is other sentient life in the galaxy besides humans.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OP and Manchu are 100% something.

Maybe even right.

Ignoring the 'game changer' that DA threw out there though is a bit 'sour grapes' and 'rain on parade' but, hey, whatever!

The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

He made their history more interesting but I would say nothing at all has changed with what they do post-heresy.

OK, sure.

Because it hasn't been written yet.

It is now an UNKNOWN.

The old background may or may not be relevant or even true anymore.

That's true, Alpharius, to the extent that GW could revamp any aspect of the (un)canon at any time. Yes, we live in fear! The general rule I use is "if it hasn't been explicitly contradicted, it stands."

It is known! That's what I'm saying!

Look I'm willing to throw you a bone here. It written many times that fully half of the legions went traitor. Now most just chalk that up to 9/9 and are done with it but those in the know know that when you take a closer look at those Dark Angels guys it was more like 8.5 loyalist to 9.5 traitor. Seriously, bad times for the Emperor.
So I could fully see them going down the route of Alphariius and Omegon having a Lion and Luthor type split (think I mentioned this before) but just like the Fallen any loyalist Omega Legionaires are pretty much just scattered and useless. Probably, hunted to the edge of extinction by the Alpha Legion.
Anyways, that would be a cool way for the story to go and hopefully they will do that but right now they're just vanilla CSMs.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:


As for why the big 4 were around 60 million years ago you guys seemed to be really brainwashed by your eccelsiarchy sunday school. Despite what they may tell you there is other sentient life in the galaxy besides humans.

You guys? Now I feel included in that message...

There is other life besides humans....for now. But there is and too.

BTW, the big 4 weren't always 4 (except you count Frazz and its big 5 actually..), if this 'how to save the galaxy from unneccessary pests'
dataslate i got from this nice brother marine in blue-green PA is correct.

right, and when the 4th came into existence humans were still running around stabbing each other with swords in never-ending war.

Ah, how times have changed.

Well, that's a complicated issue. The Chaos enties are non-temporal. So "when they came into being" or "they were no always around" is . . . inaccurate language at best. It's bizarre because, regarding the Materium, there is a point before and after the birth of Slaanesh. Regarding the Immaterium . . . ai, all best are off.

More correctly, the Chaos Gods are a-temporal, as their actions within space-time are bounded. The birth of Slaanesh into the Materium, for example.

It's been said before the Old Ones started meddling with it the warp was peaceful and tranquil. Then the Old Ones basically weaponized it to give them an edge over the C-Tan and that's when things literally went to go to hell.

Manchu wrote:Done. To. Death. Seriously, it's like everyone wanting to play the one noble dark elf after R. A. Salvatore's books took off. And as it turns out, the Drow in general are far more interesting than Drizzt.

Anything remotely realistic has been 'Done. To. Death', because even history books will have examples. I'm not sure what Drizzt has to do with this, he's nothing like what was being discussed. He didn't act thinking he was doing good but actually doing the opposite, he was just a 'good aligned' guy who's race is normally 'evil aligned'.

Same is true of the CSM, IMO. Word Bearers don't think what they're doing is "good" at all.

Word bearers thought what they were doing was "good" at the time of the original Heresy. They simply serve chaos now, but their original motives were not just 'oh HAI lets be EVUL today'.

They act according to a set of principles, of course, but none of them could be articulated as "good" except with the dullest sense of irony. There is a such thing as doing something for the sake of evil.

Articulating things as "good" in 40k is always filled with irony. Evil for the sake of evil is boring and really kind of silly.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Word bearers thought what they were doing was "good" at the time of the original Heresy. They simply serve chaos now, but their original motives were not just 'oh HAI lets be EVUL today'.

Just like the Alpha Legion!

KamikazeCanuck:

As mentioned in Codex: Chaos Daemons, while the birth of Slaanesh 'created' It, It had always existed. It's a chicken-egg paradox. If the Old Ones got the ball rolling, chances all they did was get the attention of the Ruinous Powers and bring them to wakefulness in the Materium. Mind you, that's another essential rede in 40k: you muck about with the Immaterium and sooner or later everything literally goes to Hell.

One of the things that Chaos is good at is concealing its true nature: Sarpedon is convinced the Architect of Fate is the Emperor, Ravenor habours a nascent Greater Daemon right under his nose (after demonstrating the same technique on some else), Horus is convinced the Emperor is planning to deify himself, and so on. Then there's the insinuation that the Emperor himself bargained with the Dark Powers to create the Primarchs. Just about the one thing you can be assurred of in 40k is that stuff happens because it amuses the Chaos Gods (this might just be an allegory...).

I think by that they mean the emotions and thoughts existed to create Slannesh but all of the gods had a point were those psychic energies reached critical mass and became sentient.
and yes everything Immaterium related is a perpetual chicken-egg paradox.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Word bearers thought what they were doing was "good" at the time of the original Heresy. They simply serve chaos now, but their original motives were not just 'oh HAI lets be EVUL today'.

Just like the Alpha Legion!

Now you're just trolling.

But as long as you're having fun...

The way I imagine it is that the Warp is at all times at once. Slaanesh has always been around, it's just he needed the power of the Eldar to fuel his ability to interact with the space-time continuum. I think there are thousands of small chaos gods, just waiting for people to give them enough energy to interact with the matereum. Yes, even good ones.

@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

I, sadly, agree with the OP.

The Alpha Legion is just running around killing Imperials. There's not delicate balance, there's no ulterior motives, they're just a secretive legion. If anything, they're probably using this confusion to their advantage, striking down the Imperium's few morons who believe they're some sort of loyalist.

Alpha Legion is Traitor.
Alpha Legion is Chaos Space Marine.

But not Chaos Worshiper.


I believe Alpha Legion use powers of Chaos to own plan.
They think they are using Chaos but truces are unknown.

I have a personal conspiracy theory about the Alphas, and I think it fits the facts, but then again who doesn't?

Anyway, it goes like this.

After the events of Legion, the Alphas get together, talk it out, and decide to try to get Horus's trust and get close to him so they can take him out before the climactic showdown on Earth. This obviously fails, but explains the way they didn't seem to go for the throat as much as they could have during the Heresy itself. Meanwhile, to prove their loyalty, they're hanging out in warrior-cults, doing blood rituals, etc. all to "proove their loyalty" 'cause Horus knows how the Alphas roll about as well as anyone else.

This backfires. A lot of the Alphas start to seriously go over to Chaos as the taint sets in.

After the Heresy, the Alphas slowly regroup outside the Eye of Terror and try to decide what to do next from here. This is where it all goes to hell, and Alpha Legion civil war breaks out. You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting? That was the Alpha Legion version of Istvaan 3 where the loyalists and the heretics of the Alpha Legion break company and settle their differences in classic Warhammer fashion. The Ultras don't remember it because they were never there. After that fight, the renegades become the vile heretics we know and love/hate in the 41st millenium, and the surviving loyalists probably vanish into the many chapters created in the 2nd founding as deep cover, throwing away their previous identity as they continue to fight for humanity.

So, really nothing more than a theory that happens to fit the facts, but I like it and it hasn't been disproven yet, so I hope it continues to fit the facts.