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cromwest wrote:Oh and the TFC has no redeeming qualities. And before you insert X quote about how your buddy uses it in his army and slays everyone tell your buddy to stop playing little kids who just put together their first battleforce.

Like your own captain america that used a TFC in ETC? Jeej for narrowmindedness and "if there's no easy-button, I won't play it"

The TFC is really good, and while it can be taken out by one shot, so can any tank. I won't bother going over all the good pts again, or some ways to vastly increase it's survivability as several are already mentioned in this thread. IMO, the whirlwind can't compete against the TFC, 4 small blasts and the ability to choose between 3 different rounds with nice abilities trump the large blast and indirect of the whirlwind

100 points isn't dirt cheap in my book when it costs a HS slot too. If it took up an HQ slot? Yeah, I would run one with no issue, since i only ever use the one slot normally. But HS has things in it worth taking, while HQ only really should have one taken out of it at most points levels.

Getting a tech marine and making a big deal about it is like saying you like cereal for the crappy toy that comes inside of the box.

On the issue of a dakka pred vs a whirlwind: Sure, a dakka pred only kills about 2 guard and 1 marine a turn.... Which is about the output of that whirlwind in normal situations. Sure the whirlwind can get lucky, and do a bit more... but not very much more than what the pred can do. But can a whirlwind put multiple wounds on a MC? Have a good shot at taking out light armor? Survive getting shot at? Have things it can do if their is no infantry on the board? My preds have killed infantry units and vendettas, can a whirlwind claim the same?

My money is on just about anything before these 2 units.

I took them twice - it killed maybe 5 gaunts the whole game (this is with the blast template). It was never shot at, but it never made it's points back.

I want to love the TFC. I own one and would like to run 2 or 3 since they look so cool and will bust it out when playing a fun game. But come on lets be real people. Your essentially paying 100 points for 4 str 6 templates that can be fired once or never if you go second. The only way i can get that stupid thing to work is if I put two razorbacks with a small gap between them for the TFC to fire through so that i can shoot at something without getting shot back. I normally screen my razorbacks with predators but if im screening TFC's with razorbacks im just covering one soft target with another. Sure it might last a couple more turns but if someone immobilizes my razor or even shakes it I have 100 pts worth of heavy support not doing anything and i still cant harm tanks. Which means the rest of my list that can harm tanks just became higher priority and are now easier to single out. SM don't need units that can slay infantry since every FOC has plenty of units that can harm infantry and vehicles in one unit. At best TFC competes with things that are cheaper and more versitile at worst they are VERY potentially useless if some one brings all mech (and you shouldn't be list tailoring and take it out) and has to be baby sat more than a freaking vindicator to not die.

Oh and stop talking about the free tech marine. If you are running the TFC which I have you are going to take full advantage of the 60 inch range and put him where he can do max damage and not take a ton of return fire so hes often close to the board edge if the other army cant outflank meaning when the TFC does die usually sooner than later your tech marine with his 6 inch move has to move from the FURTHEST possible spot away from the enemy to actually do anything.

If you think you can make a real all commers list with multiple TFC's and not just be cheap and list tailor by sticking on in against orks or nids please write a tactica because I would love to read it and not feel like I wasted 50 bucks on an admittedly cool looking model.

All I know about Thunderfire Cannons is that they fit my army's theme, so I'm going to try and use at least one of them sometimes. The included Bolstered ruin will help keep my Devastators and/or Snipers safe, too, so it's a bargain. If only you could take them in Squadrons like vehicles, which would minimize the "it costs a valuable HS slot" problem, and since they're Artillery, putting them in a squad would have no particular downsides.

Of course, $50 for the model kit is absurd, so naturally I'm scratchbuilding it and fluffing the thing as a somewhat oversized Thudd Gun paired with a 2nd Edition Techpriest model I picked up somewhere. Hooray for retro models!

I don't see any reason to bother with whirlwinds in 5th edition, not when you can get a vindicator for 30 points more or a predator for the same price in the same slot. Vindicator scares anything on the table - hordes, light vehicles (speeders) medium vehicles (transports), heavy vehicles, marines, terminators, nob bikers, MCs, characters, nothing can really disregard S10 AP2. Meanwhile S5 AP4 hurts light infantry as badly as the vindicator, but is easily shrugged off by heavier targets and all vehicles. A Dakka pred does high damage to hordes, decent and is really painful to light vehicle squadrons, which whirlwinds used to brutalize. A vindicator has a 30" range, and can give up one round of firing to pop smoke and get a 42" range, which should be able to hit anything if you set up decently, so the range isn't that big of a deal. With TLOS, completely blocking LOS to a vehicle is hard now, so indirect fire isn't that great of an advantage, and is horribly inaccurate to boot - I'd rather have AV13.

If they didn't take a heavy slot, or you could take a squadron of them they might be more worthwhile, but as it stands I can't see giving up a vindicator or predator for one.

1) tank charge. Sure the template may scatter over you're tank oh but who cares its not really going to hurt.

I don't see how tank shocking helps much, since it only bunches up the guys in the spot where the tank ends, not the whole crowd the tank goes through. And while the whirlwind may not hurt your tank, sticking it in the middle of a bunch of melee guys probably will. Plus if I'm in range to tank shock some guys, I'd be in shooting range for vindicators if I brought them instead.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Vindicator scares anything on the table - hordes

How so?

Gavin Thorne wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Vindicator scares anything on the table - hordes

How so?

Large Blast is a , especially when it is str10 and taking out your tanks as well as your hordes.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Gavin Thorne wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Vindicator scares anything on the table - hordes

How so?

Large Blast is a , especially when it is str10 and taking out your tanks as well as your hordes.

if it gets in range. I'll at least get 2 turns to shoots it.

Gavin Thorne wrote:How so?

How does a whirlwind?

ST10 AP2 does at least as much damage as ST 5 AP 4, hordes are not immune to high strength weapons. Both use the same size blast, after all.

That 48" range and Barrage ability really makes them more effective against hordes.

Yeah, by the time your Vindie is in range of that Ork horde, it's either too late or dead (quite tough to keep the side armour out of Rokkit range from at least someone). I don't love Whirlwinds, but the ability to kill 3-4 Orks a turn from Turn 1 can really help. And there are very few enemy armies that don't at least occasionally rely on infantry in cover somewhere.

Ian Sturrock wrote: visitorsYeah, by the time your Vindie is in range of that Ork horde, it's either too late or dead (quite tough to keep the side armour out of Rokkit range from at least someone).

usually it's within 30" on the first turn, I don't understand what you mean by "by the time". It's easy to keep the front facing most of an army especially if you have some terrain. Plus, orks shooting my vindicators aren't shooting my rhinos. And 2/3 of the time (either long edge deployment) the orks will be shooting the front of a whirlwind anyway.

I don't love Whirlwinds, but the ability to kill 3-4 Orks a turn from Turn 1 can really help. And there are very few enemy armies that don't at least occasionally rely on infantry in cover somewhere.

A vindicator also kills orks from turn one, and can hurt nobz and other targets that laugh off whirlwind shots. Any maine army that doesn't use solo scouts (asl of the ones in my area), chaos marines, and other very common armies don't use light infantry in cover.

I`ll take the heavy support choice with more armour that threatens everything over the one that only saves 30 ppoints but is laughable to most targets and is only more survivable on corner deployments against a short range army with no scouts or outflankers.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote: visitorsYeah, by the time your Vindie is in range of that Ork horde, it's either too late or dead (quite tough to keep the side armour out of Rokkit range from at least someone).

usually it's within 30" on the first turn, I don't understand what you mean by "by the time". It's easy to keep the front facing most of an army especially if you have some terrain. Plus, orks shooting my vindicators aren't shooting my rhinos. And 2/3 of the time (either long edge deployment) the orks will be shooting the front of a whirlwind anyway.

I don't love Whirlwinds, but the ability to kill 3-4 Orks a turn from Turn 1 can really help. And there are very few enemy armies that don't at least occasionally rely on infantry in cover somewhere.

A vindicator also kills orks from turn one, and can hurt nobz and other targets that laugh off whirlwind shots. Any maine army that doesn't use solo scouts (asl of the ones in my area), chaos marines, and other very common armies don't use light infantry in cover.

I`ll take the heavy support choice with more armour that threatens everything over the one that only saves 30 ppoints but is laughable to most targets and is only more survivable on corner deployments against a short range army with no scouts or outflankers.

a vindicator killing orks turn one is a vindicator being charged by orks turn 1. (ok turn 2 if the orks are on foot)

It's also a Vindicator out where Lootas and Tankbustas and Kans, and Mork knows what else can see it. AV11 is exactly the same as AV13 if neither are visible to opposing guns.

I'm not a fan of vindicators at all. They have to press too far forward, and don't kill enough to avoid retaliation. If you had 3, in a line, with rhinos blocking each flank... then MAYBE, that would keep their sides safe. It is also very inflexible.

cromwest wrote:Oh and the TFC has no redeeming qualities. And before you insert X quote about how your buddy uses it in his army and slays everyone tell your buddy to stop playing little kids who just put together their first battleforce.

Why don't you stop playing against little kids that don't know how to use a TFC correctly?

notabot187 wrote:I'm not a fan of vindicators at all. They have to press too far forward, and don't kill enough to avoid retaliation. If you had 3, in a line, with rhinos blocking each flank... then MAYBE, that would keep their sides safe. It is also very inflexible.

Other than Land Raiders and Rhinos I don't really care for Space Marine tanks at all.

I'd rather spend the points on Terminators, Sternguard and Landspeeders.

Monster Rain wrote:

cromwest wrote:Oh and the TFC has no redeeming qualities. And before you insert X quote about how your buddy uses it in his army and slays everyone tell your buddy to stop playing little kids who just put together their first battleforce.

Why don't you stop playing against little kids that don't know how to use a TFC correctly?

notabot187 wrote:I'm not a fan of vindicators at all. They have to press too far forward, and don't kill enough to avoid retaliation. If you had 3, in a line, with rhinos blocking each flank... then MAYBE, that would keep their sides safe. It is also very inflexible.

Other than Land Raiders and Rhinos I don't really care for Space Marine tanks at all.

I'd rather spend the points on Terminators, Sternguard and Landspeeders.

I like dakka and auto cannon lascannon preds, and razorbacks with las/plas, and don't really like sternguard (though they are required to make many lists work)

I'd rather have dreadnoughts doing the same job as the predators. That way you can move 6 and still shoot, which can mean a lot if you need to reposition your fire base while still shooting.

With out list tailoring and sticking a TFC only in lists that go against hoards how do you use the TFC properly in an all comers list. I especially want to know what your doing with your TFC against an all mech list to make it worth its points over the other things you could be taking for heavy support.

-Kill transport with other elements of army
-Kill unit inside with TFC

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Fetterkey wrote:-Kill transport with other elements of army
-Kill unit inside with TFC

Lather, rinse, repeat.

+1

Also, depending on the flavor of mech, four strength six blasts isn't bad. And then there's the vastly underrated Tremor Rounds...

So it doesn't matter that the TFC is going to live for only one turn and you managed to only use it on one unit in a transport? How does this make up for what you didn't use your heavy support slot for since all of them could of done the same thing some with more damage and some for less points.

This seems simplistic and pretends like the TFC exists in a vacuum. That's like saying vindicators are awesome because you can pop a land raider and put a pie plate down on terminators. That is an obvious maneuver that doesn't take in to consideration that you will likely loose that now over extended vindicator next turn. When you play do you just let on of your units die every time you kill one of the enemies? Because space marines in my experience loose wars of attrition and combinations of units need to work together to stay alive and accomplish goals.

cromwest wrote:So it doesn't matter that the TFC is going to live for only one turn and you managed to only use it on one unit in a transport? How does this make up for what you didn't use your heavy support slot for since all of them could of done the same thing some with more damage and some for less points.

This seems simplistic and pretends like the TFC exists in a vacuum. That's like saying vindicators are awesome because you can pop a land raider and put a pie plate down on terminators. That is an obvious maneuver that doesn't take in to consideration that you will likely loose that now over extended vindicator next turn. When you play do you just let on of your units die every time you kill one of the enemies? Because space marines in my experience loose wars of attrition and combinations of units need to work together to stay alive and accomplish goals.

You asked how the TFC is effective against Mech. Tactics weren't a part of my or Fetterkey's answer. Suffice to say that 3+ Cover saves tend to make the TFC a little more survivable, and if you're as good at the game as you seem to think you are you'd realize the value of something that is such an extremely high value target that a lot of enemy shooting is allocated to destroying it. Of course, YMMV.

I'm sure there's threads on TFC tactics you could search for. This seems to be getting beyond the scope of whether or not Whirlwinds are useful.

cromwest wrote:So it doesn't matter that the TFC is going to live for only one turn and you managed to only use it on one unit in a transport? How does this make up for what you didn't use your heavy support slot for since all of them could of done the same thing some with more damage and some for less points.

My TFCs usually either live for many turns or soak up inordinate amounts of firepower, both of which are wins for my army. That said, even if they get killed in one turn, that doesn't mean they've failed, since TFCs can easily make their points back with one or two shots.

cromwest wrote:This seems simplistic and pretends like the TFC exists in a vacuum. That's like saying vindicators are awesome because you can pop a land raider and put a pie plate down on terminators. That is an obvious maneuver that doesn't take in to consideration that you will likely loose that now over extended vindicator next turn. When you play do you just let on of your units die every time you kill one of the enemies? Because space marines in my experience loose wars of attrition and combinations of units need to work together to stay alive and accomplish goals.

I often outnumber my opponents in terms of units, so one-for-ones are quite all right with me.

I thought when you shoot at a TFC on a roll of 1-3 you hit the techmarine on 4-6 you hit the TFC. So all this free tech marine stuff is a moot point right? The techmarine can be killed and the TFC turned into scenery

Holy~Heretic wrote:I thought when you shoot at a TFC on a roll of 1-3 you hit the techmarine on 4-6 you hit the TFC. So all this free tech marine stuff is a moot point right? The techmarine can be killed and the TFC turned into scenery

On a 5-6 the Techmarine is hit, yes. Which unless the hit is AP2 is actually better than the gun being hit.

This thread blows my mind on so many levels.

Here's some of the ridiculous points I've seen:

-4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast
-TFC being competitive.
-TFC being resilient.
-Str7 weapons killing AV12
-Tremor rounds being "underrated"
-TFC being dirt cheap.

There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.

we are doing a comparative analysis between the TFC and the Whirlwind.

we all agree both are sub-par at best.

the argument is which one is worse.

Grey Templar wrote:we are doing a comparative analysis between the TFC and the Whirlwind.

we all agree both are sub-par at best.

the argument is which one is worse.

I see, ill be leaving you guys alone then =)