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Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

My take on pre-measuring:

I don't have any problem with not doing it, I can guess pretty well these days.

When I teach newer players, it is a major and frustrating hurdle for them to overcome.

Anything that makes it harder for new players to enjoy the game means a chance that that player won't continue in the hobby, or will lower his involvement. (like sticking to the painting and modeling aspect).

So, no pre-measure gives an advantage to vets, and a disadvantage to new players. By that alone I am inclined to support the removal of that rule. Vets already have huge advantages (at least they should) in model collection, play experience, and tactical techniques. Why should they get such a minor/major boost just because their spacial ability is more honed?

SaintHazard wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

Errm... No? Guess Range has been gone since 3rd ed. They were not in 4th. What you are thinking of is the designation for Barrage Weapons, which used to be a "G" before the Range (even in 4th). You didn't guess the range for them in 4th, it was the same mechanic that we use now for all Blasts.

Gwar! wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

Errm... No? Guess Range has been gone since 3rd ed. They were not in 4th. What you are thinking of is the designation for Barrage Weapons, which used to be a "G" before the Range (even in 4th). You didn't guess the range for them in 4th, it was the same mechanic that we use now for all Blasts.

I know that.

I was checking to make sure you were paying attention.

You have passed the test.

/shifty glances

Gwar! wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

Errm... No? Guess Range has been gone since 3rd ed. They were not in 4th. What you are thinking of is the designation for Barrage Weapons, which used to be a "G" before the Range (even in 4th). You didn't guess the range for them in 4th, it was the same mechanic that we use now for all Blasts.

*sigh* They should add a page or two at the beginning of the BRB saying: "ATTENTION: The following things have been radically changed from previous addition". Otherwise, I just assume there was a rule I overlooked rather than the complete removal of a mechanic.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out! Maybe it's time to dust off my Dark Reapers and D-Cannons.

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

There's no dumbing down, it has nothing to do with intelligence to begin with.

AlexHolker wrote:

kirsanth wrote:That explains the scope on Sororitas flamers. . .where did that link go?

Here you go.

Excellent, thank you.



I think not being allowed to measure is annoying, but it is because I am not very good at it.
I would prefer random ranges, but am fine with things the way they are. It would not change much for me, I miss about as many shots/charges as I think dice would cause.

That said, I do think it is a silly, gamey mechanic and the fantasy rulebook line regarding measuring that I quoted makes it quite blatantly so.

"3 year veteran Skirmisher x can eyeball that a guy is 47.34 feet away and his bow only reaches 47 feet so does not fire"

"300 year veteran Space Marine x thinks that a guy might hopefully be within range of his bolter so wastes a few shots checking and alerting the enemy to his exact range and location"

Ordo Dakka wrote:In WHFB guess-range is out, because random charge range is in. If 40k removes flat movement distance, then i'm all for removing the no pre-measuring.

QFT. This is why WHFB hasn't become a mechanical bore (I would imagine, as I don't play). There's still risk involved. (Although the risk is much more in the hands of dice than with an overzealous opponent being lured into a charge that they can't quite make).

Allowing premeasuring would be fine if they adjusted the move/charge system to compensate.

SaintHazard wrote:From a rules standpoint, you may not pre-measure because there are rules and wargear that allow you to pre-measure. Allowing pre-measuring without these items would not only put people who paid for them at a disadvantage, but would also change the game significantly. It's not a throwback, it's a good rule that more tabletop games should utilize.

Those objections are a bit forced. If pre-measure became the rule, people simply wouldn't take that equipment. And as for changing the game, meh, that's what happens every edition.

As someone else pointed out, random charge ranges in WHFB do mitigate the effects of pre-measure somewhat. Then again, running in 40k also keeps assault units from being kited too badly by shooting units.

Okay.

Then I object to pre-measuring because that's not how it's done now, and I fear change.

SaintHazard wrote:Okay.

Then I object to pre-measuring because that's not how it's done now, and I fear change.

CHANGE IS BAD!

Except when it is good.

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

I have to admit, I don't love premeasuring. The old edition was fiddly, and I think it's good that a person's ability to operate war machines is now based on his ability to position his batteries and prioritise targets, not his ability to guess the distance between models. Similarly, charging without premeasuring, when coupled with wheeling to begin the charge then wheeling to face the enemy produced some nightmare results - I'm more than a little happy to see that replaced with the simple 'if distance between units is enough then charge'.

But both of those rules could have been fixed without going to complete pre-measuring.


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SaintHazard wrote:Okay.

Then I object to pre-measuring because that's not how it's done now, and I fear change.

That's way too honest a way to approach talking about a rules change.

You need to declare that you've been in the hobby for years, that you remember back when it was complex, sophisticated game that rewarded tactical play, and that everything GW has done since those halycon days has dumbed the game down. Then you need to wander off into a rant about pricing, the UN or how long it's been since McDonalds made the McRoma, before winding up with a threat that the proposed rule was ever adopted you'd quit the hobby once and for all.

kirsanth wrote:"After all, our warriors are all led by experienced campaigners and we can assume that they can accurately judge the range of their weapons"

Yet 40,000 years later with all that hardware, they need range finders.

/boggle

More like /thread.

I like pre-measuring, if only for removing cheating and fudging during movement/charges, etc.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

Exactly. One of the guys in our local 40k group is a sniper when it comes to guessing ranges. Now that guess weapons, like Whirlwinds, are not currently used, he is still a beast when it comes to figuring out exactly how far things are from each other. It's a skill he probably developed being a mechanic!

This thread was probably started by someone who constantly gets nerfed by not deploying and maneuvering properly, and gets busted trying to shoot or charge a tenth of an inch outside of range...

Can I have a clear definition of what people believe pre-measuring is?

But the question still stands, with pre-measuring would you actually help remove cheating/fudging?

Like I said earlier, I have seen good players who dont cheat make compound movement errors that result in several extra inches of movement. Heck I am sure I have done it. Premeasuring wouldnt change this, as we usually have our tape measure extended as we move anyway.

For me, it would be measuring before declaring your intention to shoot, move, or charge and where you intend to do so.

I have played against kids who have tried to check the range of their weapons to find out what they have the range to hit. We have told them it was not allowed and they stopped.

Sometimes, you just have to risk the shot. I have misplayed and been in a position where premeasuring a move or whatever would have prevented that, but that's the nature of the game.

Long story short: declare, then measure. If you come up short, well, that's the chance you take...


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DevianID wrote:But the question still stands, with pre-measuring would you actually help remove cheating/fudging?

Like I said earlier, I have seen good players who dont cheat make compound movement errors that result in several extra inches of movement. Heck I am sure I have done it. Premeasuring wouldnt change this, as we usually have our tape measure extended as we move anyway.

I don't think it encourages cheating, but it is cheesy to check all your ranges and work from there. It also wastes a lot of time, especially with a heavily shooty army.

In Warhammer FANTASY archers are allowed to measure the distance any time they want to. You can always measure distances.

I guess all those people who really enjoy fantasy must be wrong and the game lacks interesting situations or skill somehow?

Somehow 40,000 years in the future, people with high tech scopes and lascannons and tanks and BINOCULARS (points to imperial guard squad) cannot tell distance?

well consider the proportion of shooting units in Fantasy... and the fact that the game is being overrun by kids who min-max and mathhammer their games, 6th edition might as well give them one more thing to do while playing...

I have no Depth perception, so I play Tau. When you can shoot people on thier side of the Board, you don't need to measure.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

There's no dumbing down, it has nothing to do with intelligence to begin with.

Yeah, it kind of did.

Ordo Dakka wrote:Can I have a clear definition of what people believe pre-measuring is?

Pre-measuring is, to me, being able to take any sort of measurement you like at any point in the game, like checking distance between yourself and enemy units in your movement phase.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

There's no dumbing down, it has nothing to do with intelligence to begin with.

Yeah, it kind of did.

Your list of talents must be quite sparse if you cling to visual estimates of 6" intervals as your claim to intelligence.

Terminus wrote:
Your list of talents must be quite sparse if you cling to visual estimates of 6" intervals as your claim to intelligence.

No, in fact I am very poor at guessing correct range. But, it's the very fact that I have to rely on guesses (however educated they might be). It's good to be throw out of your depth, to not be entirely sure if that Trygon is more than 18" away, praying that it fails on fleet. Likewise, it's funner when you have to think "should I stand here and go full range, or are those fellows close enough to risk moving forward and getting the Rapid Fire."

I don't know, plenty of games allow pre-measuring and work just fine (Epic, Flames of War, et. al.).

And I'm not exactly sure how guessing at the right answer is somehow more cerebral than making fully-informed decisions?

Terminus wrote:I don't know, plenty of games allow pre-measuring and work just fine (Epic, Flames of War, et. al.).

And I don't play those. Why should I care?

And I'm not exactly sure how guessing at the right answer is somehow more cerebral than making fully-informed decisions?

Cerebral? I'm not saying you need extra bloody IQ points if you have to guess, but it does add another element into the gameplay. "Have they been moving a steady 6 inches per turn? They were in range with their boltguns, my vehichle should be able to move this far and still fire the heavy flamer." By just 'knowing' and having all the info, you don't have to put any of the pieces together becuase someone has just handed you the thing on a silver platter. Takes the fun out of it.


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Then again, a friend of mine who played Empire always boasted (to some degree) about his "skill" in guessing the correct range for his cannons.

I'd also like to see pre-measuring partially removed. When I beat an opponent, I'd like it to be because my strategy and tactics was superior to his/hers, not because my opponent is simply poor at eyeballing 6". Other games that I have played allow measuring at all times, and it simply did not affect gameplay for better or worse.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Cerebral? I'm not saying you need extra bloody IQ points if you have to guess, but it does add another element into the gameplay.

Yes, but it's neither a particularly fun not particularly sensible element. It's removal would actually make gameplay more fun, I think. Fluffwise, it's just completely strange.

I find it hard to believe Necrons don't know how far away something is at all times, or that Chaos Terminators - veterans of nonstop war for literally centuries - don't have a good eye for how far they can shoot, something most first year conscript soldiers have a good handle on.

The only exception I'd like to see for no-measuring-allowed is for drop pods/deep striking/etc etc. Those should be inherently riskier then anything else.

Especially given, fluffwise, bolter link information gives you the exact range at which targets are viable. Many BL novels state this piece of info. It's part of the many details about the environment supplied by the helm.

In all the games i've played that we've allowed premesuring it hasn't affected the game much at all....

Well, the obvious reason it's there is the battlefield isn't presighted. There aren't little red flags every 10 meters, and even the best shooter in the heat of combat will misjudge how far away something is unless he's taken the time to take a direct measurement with some fancy thingy.

But yes, I'm all for allowing premeasuring if you change the rules to make distance shooting, and charge distance a bit more random. BUt then you'd have to rework a lot more, as well as remember that alot of the codexes will still be built around the old 'no pre-measuring' rules.

Just out of curiosity, how did WHFB solve this problem with older Army Books?

They didnt need to. Fewer unique machines so common rules for stone throwers etc can be changed in one go. Still have some oddities (some stone thrower alike machines are still hella powerful, like the Bret trebuchet) but as it was core rules changes not much needed changing on the army book side.

Biggest change was stone throwers no longer disallowing armour saves, and dropping to S3 basic meaning while you get more hits (they got rid of partials as well) you wound less often than previously. Murders cheap troops, less effective against Chaos Warriors.