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Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:How many vehicles are there with invulnerable saves?

Lots, now the DE codex has come around.

At first it was just Bjorn, now every single vehicle in the DE codex can have one.

Well, which? How does it work? I thought they only had three vehicles.

That still leaves 90% of the codexes in the game without invulnerable saves.

Do you think that it is a new idea (I use the term loosely) from GW and we will see the next two or three codexes having invulnerable saves for vehicles?

Isn't it a vehicle upgrade that gives 5++?

The Dark eldar have 5 vehicles which can get the Flickerfield upgrade for 10 points.Flickerfield connfers a 5+ inv save

And those are what, AV10 vehicles?

>< HTF do you kill AV15?

Lotsa dakka

it's fine as it is imo. most good players ignore them and go for phase out anyway. clean up the rules to a 5th ed. standard and bob's your uncle.

Orks have 4+ cover saves on their vehicles from the KFF, which is basically the same as a 4++ invulnerable given that most things which ignore cover aren't good at damaging vehicles.

Tau get a obscured target upgrade for vehicles as long as it is being shot at from further than 12". That is a 4+ Cover from any weapon outside 12".

Gwar! wrote:
I actually like the idea of a AV15 vehicle..

I've been toying with re-writing the superheavy stats (for the ones we have in my game group at least) to allow armour 15+

I'm really not a fan of Titans, Leviathans and the like having worse armour then a Land Raider, hell even the Baneblade and such used to be better protected in Epic then the Land Raider.

Jack

hemingway wrote:it's fine as it is imo. most good players ignore them and go for phase out anyway. clean up the rules to a 5th ed. standard and bob's your uncle.

Technically I'm Uncle Bob, but I think you're right.

KFF and Disruption Pod are slightly different things though.

The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover, or by destroying the Big Mech unit carrying the KFF generator.

The Tau Disruption Pod can be ignored by getting inside 12 inches.

If the DE vehicles have a 5++ save and AV 10 it means you just need to hit them with several heavy weapons and get a bit lucky.

Are the DE vehicles all still open top?

*is still confused.* Wouldn't str 9 only glance meaning only str 10 could pen? and str 16 would be must glance with str 10... so it'd be invulnerable?

Well unless they change how weapon destroyed results work on it, then essentially yes.

AV 15 but no living metal. That's the catch!

@Kilkrazy: Yes, the Raider, Ravager and Venom are still open topped. The two new vehicles, Razorwing Jetfighter and Voidraven Bomber are closed top.

And don't forget, Cover saves for vehicles can be ignored by a big ol' Power Fist, Invulnerable saves cannot!

Kilkrazy wrote:KFF and Disruption Pod are slightly different things though.

The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover, or by destroying the Big Mech unit carrying the KFF generator.

The Tau Disruption Pod can be ignored by getting inside 12 inches.

If the DE vehicles have a 5++ save and AV 10 it means you just need to hit them with several heavy weapons and get a bit lucky.

Are the DE vehicles all still open top?

Killing a Big mek when he is inside the battlewagon in question is really hard. Most wagons have deffrollas and are moving at full speed. Thus they are hard as hell to hit w/ close combat weapons as well.

The last time I played against Orks with a KFF it was before the Deffrolla had been clarified as being awesome, so people weren't using them.

Sort of off topic (someone mentioned it earlier), what do you thing Gauss weapons will be changed to? Some theoies that we had included reducing it to S3, but making it rending. We figured that S4 rending might be a little too powerful for rank and file troops to have.

Ranged Rending full stop is too powerful.

I have no idea what they will change it to tbh. The only advantage Gauss has against non-vehicles is against T8+, which there is little to none anymore.

When you put it like that it does seem overpowered. It definately needs a lot of thought.

As for the monolith, I think dropping living metal and making the monolith AV15 is a fantastic idea. It would really make it unique compared to other vehicles as well.

Maybe with a 5+ Invul as well?

That could work - though I shudder to think what the point cost of the "Newlith" would be. Especially if it retained the Particle Whip + Gauss flux arcs.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the 'newlith' ended up being Av14, revamped Living metal and end up just adding a structure point or somthing

Although for what my opinion is worth, I think the Monolith is fine, if they want to upgrade it to compete with invun saves, just make it immune to glancing or somthing along those lines.

Its fine as is. Slow, huge (so easy to hit), immune to anything that would get bonuses pretty much (a melta could still wreck it however)... Its honestly fine. Its weaponry is right where it should be as well. Keep the lith as it is!

I'm inclined to agree with Zid, though it does need some rules overhauling/clarification, I don't see the big issue with monoliths as they are. Yes, they're tough to kill, but they're also slow and have a limited amount of weaponry, are a HUGE target and rarely ever benefit from obscured saves and it is extremely easy to block the ONLY exit point on the vehicle (for what that's worth, anyway).

Agreed, it needs little change just updated rules for clarification. Much like the entire codex IMHO. Cheaper warriors and better abilities on the currently useless units and they're fine.

I like Living Metal as it is....although the thought of AV15 is tempting as well!

I actually toyed with the idea of makign a "minilith" a whiel ago. It was go to be a smaller 'lith, with the portal and a single gauss flux ar projector. With AV12 and Livign Metal. I was also goign to have it be a normal "Skimmer"

I thought it sounded pretty good. Tough but limited weaponry.

I think i was going to call it a Nexus or something like that.

Kilkrazy wrote:The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover

Most of which can't penetrate vehicle armor very well anyway.

i just like the idea of a vehicle that is meltaproof

And that is exactly the problem I have with it.