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Only one Phoenix Lord has Eternal Warrior, that's Asurmen. It's totally piss-pants that the other's don't.

Skarboy wrote:Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper.

I agree with you somewhat, but there are still a large handful of units (and pretty much all the SCs) that are never worth taking in any list, and that is unacceptable.

Tek wrote:Only one Phoenix Lord has Eternal Warrior, that's Asurmen. It's totally piss-pants that the other's don't.

I'm sorry, but "Codex Eldar" disagrees.


this profile applies to ALL the phoenix lords...

Duke Sliscus

baron Sathonyx

Trueborn x4
4 blasters, venom

Hellions x 20
stun claw

reaver x6
caltrops
heat lance x2

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x9
hydra gauntlets x1
hekatrix w/ power weapon/blast pistol
raider w/flicker field

2000

I think the statement that a single vindicator will destroy an entire army is not entirely accurate DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Tek wrote:Only one Phoenix Lord has Eternal Warrior, that's Asurmen. It's totally piss-pants that the other's don't.

I'm sorry, but "Codex Eldar" disagrees.


this profile applies to ALL the phoenix lords...

The only problem is that you're arguing phoenix lords to be "viable". At over 200pts a piece, they really aren't for what they give. Similarly, since when did Rune Priests ever use Saga of the Bear?! I don't think they could even take it let alone bother doing so if they could.

I agree with much of what Skarboy said, DE seems to be more of a thinking-mans codex that is tricky to master but devastating once it is mastered. There will be a wide variety of themes and units that can be used in friendly or non-competitive games and there will be a selection of skilled players whupping-ass with competitive Dark Eldar armies. They are still very much a glass hammer, but they are a well-themed, tricky to use army as Dark Eldar should be. I'm glad they're not OTT or so easy to use as IG, BA and SW's, this is how the Dark Eldar should be IMHO.

Exactly, the options are there. they just arent pounding you in the face like "hurr hurr lets spam melta veterans vendettas and medusas"

Overall I agree with the OP - the dex is extremely underwhelming.

There are awesome bits like cheap as heck Ravagers, and the awesome choice of Razorwings and Voidravens, but really, there are more disappointing aspects than positive.

Saint Hazard nailed it: so many units are overcosted/not worth taking, which you rarely see in a 5th Edition 'dex.

Plus pretty much every special HQ choice is poop outside of maybe Lelith (provided the meta doesn't get wise to the fact that she has S3).

Also, there's really no need to prove that you actually have the 'dex. It's been out for weeks at stores, and online at dubious places in it's entirety for about a week now.

Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

I'm going to have to disagree here and with the OP. I don't think Dark Eldar are a 5th edition codex like SW, BA, or IG. They are more like Tyrannids. I don't see this as a bad thing. I think the Nid codex is very viable. Tactics and synergy rule the day and will with Dark Eldar as well. So they don't have clear cut "spam me" choices? Good. Screw the flavor of the month crowd. Dark Eldar were a tough to use, unforgiving but powerful army. They are still a tough to use, unforgiving but powerful army. The only difference is that they are not confined to "dark lance spam" mono builds to be competitive. Again, good.

What's overcosted about it? 9 point warriors with poisoned weapons that get FNP incredibly easily? Fast vehicles with a dark lance that can get a 5++ or the ability to negate the opponents range by 6"? The only trash overcosted units I see outside of some of the special characters are Grotesques, Scourges, and Mandrakes. The rest is fine. The Archon is still viable. He just doesn't have the combat drugs like before...oh well. The special characters seem hit or miss. I know from experience that Magnalon doesn't like army buffing guys and goes ga-ga for beatsticks. Sadly, army buffers are usually better. It's funny you mention Lelith as I think she may be one of the trashiest ones there. Army buffing characters like the Hellion one and Duke Scicilus are amazing for their cost in the right builds. Again, list building and synergy.

People are too knee jerk. Either they think the poisoned weapons are way to OP or were expecting cheese to the levels of SW or BA. Well, they didn't get that kind of cheese. Isn't it possible the codex is balanced and it's going to be hard to use? If so what's the problem there? Either way, the community needs to play games with and against them before any judgments are definitely made.

JGrand wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree here and with the OP. I don't think Dark Eldar are a 5th edition codex like SW, BA, or IG. They are more like Tyrannids. I don't see this as a bad thing.

The Tyranids don't really have a handful of units that are straight up awful though. The beauty of the Tyranid codex is that it's unsightly at first, but once you look at it, pretty much everything is viable. The Dark Eldar codex has some units that you just look at and go "why would I *ever* take these?". In a 5th edition codex, that's not a good thing.

Also, Tyranids boast some of the best SCs/MCs in the game. Dark Eldar were shafted entirely in that regard. I said "maybe" Lelith for the kids - I think she's awful at Strength 3.

Cause really, its the other way around. Only a handful of builds (none really all that competitive) have anything to fear from this new DE dex.

Can you tell me how this list would fail horribly against most armies? It is something that I threw together in 10 minutes.

Archon (Clone Field, Grenade Launcher, Haywire Grenades, Ghostplate, Agonizer)

Court (1 Medusae, 1 Lhamaean, 1 Ur-Ghul, 2 Slyths) with Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

3 Haemonculi (Each with liquifier)

9 Wracks (liquifier) with Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

9 Wracks (liquifier) with Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

10 Wyches (10 Haywire Grenades, 2 Shardnets, Hekatrix with Agonizer) Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

10 Wyches (10 Haywire Grenades, 2 Shardnets, Hekatrix with Agonizer) Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

1 Ravager (Flickerfield)

2 Razorwings (Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon)

Together it is 1750 points.

It has 5 S4 ap d6 flamers and one S d6+1 ap d6 flamer, 12 Dark Lances and both Jet Fighters have 4 S6 ap 5 Large Blast missiles that they can spam in one turn if they want to.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Cause really, its the other way around. Only a handful of builds (none really all that competitive) have anything to fear from this new DE dex.

I won't, actually, provide full lists because if folks can't figure them out on their own, I won't be able to explain it to them. It's not my responsibility to try to drive up DE interest or hand-hold folks through their army selection process. Further, posting a list is reckless without explaining the tactics of how to use it. The best list in the world is feeble in the hands of someone who cannot conceptualize how they work together.

All I'm stating for folks, as a counterpoint to those denouncing the DE as mediocre, is that they have exceptional potential if you unlock them. Yes, you need to have some ability to conceptualize an entire functioning army and that examining units or even shoddy "best of" type lists in a vacuum will not clue you in on their abilities. But they have, amongst other things:

-Versatile troop choices that can do multiple tasks and can be easily customized to fit need(s)
-Some exceptionally good hammer units out of multiple force org slots
-A cheap, force-multiplying HQ choice and several other HQ choices that affect the game larger than just being CC monsters
-Several hard-hitting alpha strike units for both infantry and vehicles
-Webway portals manipulate the reserves and gives you unequaled battlefield area control, as well as an ability to launch hammer units with long reach thanks to fleet and other rules
-Access to excellent special weapons, including the best flamers in the game
-Specialists that can actually be configured to multiple roles out of different force org slots
-Ability to multi-functional choices out of almost every force organization selection
-Army-wide abilities that multiply the effectiveness of many units
-Ability to field several different builds, be competitive AND fluffy, and address all potential needs on the battlefield

By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

When the Tyranids codex came out everybody was saying that the sky was falling because they had an awful, awful codex. 7 months on people have actually learned to play the army, and there's no real outstanding problems aside from some poorly worded rules.

In other words, don't let the OP's first impressions sway you from having an army of totally sweet looking space pirates. They'll be fine.

The Tyranids don't really have a handful of units that are straight up awful though. The beauty of the Tyranid codex is that it's unsightly at first, but once you look at it, pretty much everything is viable. The Dark Eldar codex has some units that you just look at and go "why would I *ever* take these?". In a 5th edition codex, that's not a good thing.

Also, Tyranids boast some of the best SCs/MCs in the game. Dark Eldar were shafted entirely in that regard. I said "maybe" Lelith for the kids - I think she's awful at Strength 3.

Ummm....

Deathleaper
Lictors
Pyrovore
Mawlock
Harpy
Carnifex
Old One Eye
Parisite of Mortex

Just off the top of my head a list of horrid Tyrannid units. Like I said, I can think of three units in Dark Eldar that suck and are worthless not counting SC's.

Why would they have MC's? They are Dark Eldar? Why should they play like anything else? They are fast and can pump out the damage. FNP and flickerfields have made them more resilient than before. OMG they are paper thin? What do you want, 3+ saves and 2 special weapons, a sergeant with powerfist?

There isn't Meph or fast razorbacks here, I'd agree. They aren't cheese. Oh well. They still seem like an upgrade over the old Dark Eldar dex which has been doing pretty well in the context of 5th edition. Plus, it alleviates the "mono build" boredom. Some people like challenging armies. Not everyone wants to be OP fast MEQs.

Magnalon wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper.

I agree with you somewhat, but there are still a large handful of units (and pretty much all the SCs) that are never worth taking in any list, and that is unacceptable.

Such as? I suggest to you that, in the right build, pretty much EVERYTHING in the dex has a purpose and I have found that a lot of the "obvious" choices that people are claiming (Voidraven, Incubi, etc.) are not nearly as efficient as they appear.

By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Leave DE to the players who want something more interesting than "move up LR, shoot with fast razorbacks".

Ennkay wrote:Duke Sliscus

baron Sathonyx

Trueborn x4
4 blasters, venom

Hellions x 20
stun claw

reaver x6
caltrops
heat lance x2

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x9
hydra gauntlets x1
hekatrix w/ power weapon/blast pistol
raider w/flicker field

2000

I think the statement that a single vindicator will destroy an entire army is not entirely accurate DAR

Also, your dex seems incorrect. You cant take a stunclaw without taking a helliarch. The entire list you posted is 1809, so unless you plan on taking a 200 point handicap, you may want to add some things.

Also, if you are planning on sticking Duke with the Trueborn, you are missing out on one of his major rules (as the trueborn will have no poisoned weapons at that point.

And the statement that a single vindi will destroy ~500 points of stuff that has little-to-no anti tank (especially after the vindi fires) is very accurate.

Again, people who saw the DEMO dex and are using the leaked DEMO dex should make sure it is identical to the ACTUAL dex that just came out... (GW has made last minute changes before, as they did in C: BA)

the DEMO dex looked amazing, what I am seeing in the ACTUAL dex seems very different...

Every codex has at least one oversubscribed slot, as a rule - Elites for Nids, for example.

HQ is DEs over subscribed.

Incubi are horrid (fleet, 3+, S4 power weapons? yes please) in Venoms. The same venoms that can fire 12 poisoned shots a turn after moving 12".

Wracks as troops choices give you tough troops that can stick around, AND dish out pain as needed.

Trueborn - 2 cannon? 'nuff said

Reavers - insane speed and can turboboost and still interact with the game.

Yes, they arent idiot proof. They never were. They are now *more* powerful than previously.
(and had codex for a week, yay, and normal preorder arrived today )

JGrand wrote:

By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Leave DE to the players who want something more interesting than "move up LR, shoot with fast razorbacks".

Oh I certaintly agree with this! I actually love the glass cannon strategy.

I LOVE how they are the new "hard to use army". I LOVE that in order to get a good raider, it's going to cost you around 80 points, and be paper thin. As weird as it sounds, it's going to require careful deployment, and good manueovering - that sounds fun.

I would just appreciate it if most of my special characters weren't unusable, and at least 3 entire units were not even feasible for use in any army whatsoever.

The way I look at it is this. It's a 5th Edition codex. You can't make throwaway units in it, because you ruin the entire meta of the army in the longrun. I just foresee every other army getting it's 5th Edition updates (and maybe even some MEQs getting their 6th), and the Dark Eldar are left in the dust again because they're unable to use some of their units, and change with the times. It sucks.

It's a knee jerk reaction, sure, and one I won't see for quite some time, but you have to admit it is there to some degree. Again, don't get me wrong, there are TONS of cheap as heck units in there that will rock most other army's faces off.

Do I think I'll win a lot with my Dark Eldar for a few years to come? Sure. Poisoned Weapons rock MCs, and there are plenty of other killy things to take out troops, and even more things to take out HQs. I just don't think my lists will ever be that diversified, thanks to so many things being useless.

Phil Kelly's books always have some overcosted, take only for fun stuff in it. DE is unshockingly no different but these units are almost all special characters (and there's still a couple of amazing SCs also). Really think its a bit of a red herring to focus on drazor and what have you, even the IG and SWs have their stinkers.

OP is missing or failing to mention some of the better things in the dex. Like the option to take wracks as troops. And wracks eat MEq pretty handily for their points by the way, between dual liquifier and an easy to gain 4+ poison with reroll. They are a great addition to some solid troop choices and its not like most players won't be taking a homonculous anyways. ANd that's just one unit -- most got better or stayed just as viable (and the few new units are pretty good too).

Also find it laughable that they lost their MEq killing edge. Because dissies got retooled? Because there's a bit less dark lance spam? Because they lost the retinue rule like every other codex since med 4ed? I think you missed a good deal of info in your read of the codex. DE look to me to be MSU killers -- able to play MSU themselves and handily deal with the min sized units that are all the rage.

Still need to playtest and Im far from a long time DE player (more a fan of their rules and style, if not their horrible range of 3ed models) but I'm pretty optimistic about this codex. It has one of the pre-reqs for greatness that many dexes fail to have and thats varied options for anti-mech/infantry or what have you in every slot. Might not be top-teir but it sure seems to be top of the middle teir (if you believe in such things).

They can kill razorback spam vehicles, then eat the small 5 man units inside to get FNP. Then FC when they eat the next "MSU" unit.

I agree that DE are still MEQ killers. Massed splinter weaponry will take down MEQ just fine - you got a 3+ save? Great! Now make 30 of them please.

The real problem for DE will be massed mech. Loads of speeders, kans, razorbacks, chimeras, etc. are going to be the bane of DE. I know alot of people will read this and scoff - they still think that the dark lance is good at popping armor. Remember, a dark lance or blaster still only has just less than an 8% chance to destroy or wreck an AV12 vehicle. I haven't been able to test Grotesques or Beasts out yet - I think these may be the best way to deal with armor.

For the most part, I really like what they did with the new codex. It does appear to be extremely balanced. I will miss some of my old favorite tactics - 30+ inch charge range for the Arcon - but I still like the options.

I am surprised that no vehicle has the ability to outflank. For a sneaky, piratical, raiding army - where are the outflankers? Maybe they thought it was too much with the speed and ability to assault out of a transport?

Like others have said in this post, I do think we'll end up seeing many different DE builds. We might even see all foot DE - either using a grotesque wall for cover or popping out of a WWP.

If others see a practical use for Mandrakes, please let me know. I'm not trying to be Captian whiny pants but they do seem to be very underwhelming.

Aetherse wrote:
Together it is 1750 points.

It has 5 S4 ap d6 flamers, 12 Dark Lances and both Jet Fighters have 4 S6 ap 5 Large Blast missiles that they can spam in one turn if they want to.

I got 1690(points for the list), and against things like MSU SW and just about any BA list, you are still getting crushed. LB still crushes you.. really any competitve list still crushes you when you are playing DE.

And to those who are thinking "Well its not fair to compare them against the top competitve lists out there"... guess what, you can't use that as an argument against someone claiming that they are UNCOMPETITIVE.

Skarboy wrote:
I won't, actually, provide full lists because if folks can't figure them out on their own, I won't be able to explain it to them.

I don't want you to explain a list, I want you to present a list... its not that hard...

Skarboy wrote:
It's not my responsibility to try to drive up DE interest or hand-hold folks through their army selection process.

Then why are you posting in a thread about DE interest... and why did you post this:

Skarboy wrote:
All I'm stating for folks, as a counterpoint to those denouncing the DE as mediocre, is that they have exceptional potential if you unlock them.

Skarboy wrote:
Yes, you need to have some ability to conceptualize an entire functioning army and that examining units or even shoddy "best of" type lists in a vacuum will not clue you in on their abilities. But they have, amongst other things:

Competitve gaming requires meta-gaming, metagaming involves "best ofs". If you aren't interested in competitve gaming, stay out of a conversation about the mediocrety of an army race. Otherwise you sound like someone saying somthing along the lines of "While I don't like competitive racing, and don't really pay too much attention to which cars are doing best, I think that the Honda Civic is the fastest car cause I was able to drive it pretty fast once".

Now, onto the list of "pros"

Skarboy wrote:
-Versatile troop choices that can do multiple tasks and can be easily customized to fit need(s)

What? Examples?

Skarboy wrote:
-Some exceptionally good hammer units out of multiple force org slots

Really, cause all the ones I've seen come from the "Elites" section (not counting HQs)

Skarboy wrote:
-A cheap, force-multiplying HQ choice and several other HQ choices that affect the game larger than just being CC monsters

Orks, SM, and others do it MUCH better...

Skarboy wrote:
-Several hard-hitting alpha strike units for both infantry and vehicles

WTF are you takling about?

Skarboy wrote:
-Webway portals manipulate the reserves and gives you unequaled battlefield area control, as well as an ability to launch hammer units with long reach thanks to fleet and other rules

Unless they kill/disable your portal holder early, which is easy. Even if they don't, they can surround your portal and cut off its use pretty easily...

Skarboy wrote:
-Access to excellent special weapons, including the best flamers in the game

Breath of Chaos/Wind of Chaos

LR Redeemers flame cannon

Incinerators

(there are others, hell I would even put Burnas at a higher list, you can put 15 of them in a squad and not only are they flamers, but you can use them as PWs if you want to instead...)

they really arent that great, they are only "really good" 50% of the time...

Skarboy wrote:
-Specialists that can actually be configured to multiple roles out of different force org slots

Are you sure you aren't reading Codex: Space Marine or Codex: Imperial guard?

Skarboy wrote:
-Ability to multi-functional choices out of almost every force organization selection

While effectively the same thing as your previous point... again, I think you are reading the wrong codex...

Skarboy wrote:
-Army-wide abilities that multiply the effectiveness of many units

See, this is funny... cause there really aren't any (unless you mean StP or 'Fleet', in which case, those are "special rules" not "Army wide abilities")

Skarboy wrote:
-Ability to field several different builds, be competitive AND fluffy, and address all potential needs on the battlefield

No! You still havent listed ANY evidence that they are competitve in the current meta. All you really have said is "Incubi can kill in melee" and "FnP is broken". First off, HOW can incubi kill in melee at "extreme effectiveness" and secondly, "FnP" is not all that good on T3 squishys that arent getting armor against most fire anyway..

Skarboy wrote:
By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

They aren't "High learning curve", they are "not competitive". You can make an argument that Necrons are a "High learning curve" army, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are "uncompetitive". The original statement of this thread was that "Phil Kelly is a racist" which (while admittingly was more of a joke then a serious accusation) was made due to the fact that Phil Kelly, the writer of the DE codex, made this codex weaker then his prior 5th edition works (which... IT IS! Compare the SCs of the DE to that of the SW or the BA for more details...).

Its a weaker codex, period.
Can you use it to beat weaker players? Sure! Grats to you!
Can you use it to make fun and interesting combos that are versitile and good counters to your local gaming group? Absolutely!
Will it be winning the Indy GT or 'Ard boys? Not anytime soon!

Its like the Tyranids codex. Its not useless, but its not at the same level as BA/SW/IG.

tl;dr: If you are a competitive player, wait for the GK codex, it will probably be broken as hell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterman wrote: Might not be top-teir but it sure seems to be top of the middle teir (if you believe in such things).

this

I still don't see how mephi could make vect worry, vect goes first, always wounds on a 3+ has preferred enemy, hits on 3+. New Archons have a better chance against mephi then the old ones, yea you need a 6 to wound but you only need one of them to wound and he's dead, shadow field did get nerfed a bit but its still not likely that you'll fail it. It only fails against that lone guardsmen, ALWAYS.

Ok raven and razorwing can move 12 and still shoot, stormraven can move 24 and still shoot, heck it can even shoot two different units. I'm not saying their bad but compared to the other units of its type it should have been better.

I got 1690(points for the list), and against things like MSU SW and just about any BA list, you are still getting crushed. LB still crushes you.. really any competitve list still crushes you when you are playing DE.

And to those who are thinking "Well its not fair to compare them against the top competitve lists out there"... guess what, you can't use that as an argument against someone claiming that they are UNCOMPETITIVE.

How is MSU SW going to wreck this? Grey Hunters are just normal tactical when fighting Wyches, Liquifiers can annihilate whole squads and everything and their mother has FNP so flamers aren't going to do much. TWCs are going to lose to wyches (enjoy your -2 attacks).

BA would be harder nut to crack, switching some Dark Lances to Disintegrators to negate FNP might be useful. And as I have 60 points to spare according to your calculations I can add more agonizers.

No! You still havent listed ANY evidence that they are competitve in the current meta. All you really have said is "Incubi can kill in melee" and "FnP is broken". First off, HOW can incubi kill in melee at "extreme effectiveness" and secondly, "FnP" is not all that good on T3 squishys that arent getting armor against most fire anyway..

I don't feel like responding to each post of the back and forth "this isn't/is right". Bottom line, we don't have an incredible idea yet. From what I've seen they are better than their former incarnation which was doing pretty well in 5th. Here's my early take:

HQ:
Archon is less good, but still pretty potent. Can go toe to toe with most characters and win. You need to have him attack the right situation though. That's true with just about everything.
Wytch HQ- for 100ish she is an ok addition. Not world beating but decent.
SC's- Both Duke Scicilus and the Hellion HQ are great choices in a build based around them
Court of the Archon- looks good in high point games
Hamonculus- look like they will be nice additions/attachments to squads for more ummph

Overall: HQ better than ever

Elites:
Incubi-squad of 5 naked with an Archon in a Venom looks like a nice little unit
Mandrakes-suck
Grotesques-suck
Trueborn-We will be seeing lots of them.
Superwytches- meh, too many points

Elites: They seem ok. Hit or miss really. Still, the Trueborn with 4 specials will be a staple.

Troops:
Warriors-better than ever
Wracks- very solid looking unit.
Wytchs- still look pretty great

Troops: Overall look like they are better. StP will help a lot. At the very least we won't have Raider squads starting outside their Raiders so that the foot squads can jack them ala old dex

Fast Attack:
Hellions- very viable looking
Beastmasters- look nice in the right list-especially Razorwing flocks
Bikers- meh... nothing special
Scourges-suck

FA: Overall seems like there are some interesting units. A bit hit or miss but the Hellions seem nice

Heavy Support:
Ravager- better than before (stop crying about plasma cannons)
Voidraven- pricey but seems decent to good
Razorwing- looks pretty versatile with the missile options
Talos/new Talos- better than before

HS: Looks much more versatile. No more 3x Ravagers=no brainer.

The codex seems to be entirely better on paper. The old one was still competitive in 5th and I see this one being that way as well. There's going to be a learning curve, tough list building, and synergy needed. People hate that stuff...whatever. Not a big deal.

They aren't "High learning curve", they are "not competitive". You can make an argument that Necrons are a "High learning curve" army, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are "uncompetitive". The original statement of this thread was that "Phil Kelly is a racist" which (while admittingly was more of a joke then a serious accusation) was made due to the fact that Phil Kelly, the writer of the DE codex, made this codex weaker then his prior 5th edition works (which... IT IS! Compare the SCs of the DE to that of the SW or the BA for more details...).

Its a weaker codex, period.
Can you use it to beat weaker players? Sure! Grats to you!
Can you use it to make fun and interesting combos that are versitile and good counters to your local gaming group? Absolutely!
Will it be winning the Indy GT or 'Ard boys? Not anytime soon!

Its like the Tyranids codex. Its not useless, but its not at the same level as BA/SW/IG.

tl;dr: If you are a competitive player, wait for the GK codex, it will probably be broken as hell.

So in your extensive playtesting you have found them to be "uncompetitive" already? WARNING: NO ONE BUY THEM! This guy already figured it out. They suck! extensive playtesting at Narrowminded In a Vacuum Headquarters reveal them to be horrible!

Id say its a little early to claim something isnt competitive since the army isnt even "officially" out yet. sure some people are getting their codex but I cant even buy mine at my store yet

Aetherse wrote:How is MSU SW going to wreck this? Grey Hunters are just normal tactical when fighting Wyches, Liquifiers can annihilate whole squads and everything and their mother has FNP so flamers aren't going to do much. TWCs are going to lose to wyches (enjoy your -2 attacks).

Good luck getting FnP from those Las/Plas razorbacks, not to mention those melta/plasma guns in the hands of those "useless" grey hunters. Your FnP also is basically just a 4+ armor save against ANY AND ALL shooting from the SW as well (and ask anyone whos "Relied" on 4+s).

Liquids aren't that great... str 4 means they are wounding marines on a 4+ (50%) and 50% of the time they WON'T pierce armor (ap4+ doesn't pierce) so yeah... and again, they can stay out of flamer range and still wreck your wracks.

TWCs are not going to lose to Wyches, (enjoy your wounding on 6s, hitting on 4s, while being wounded on 3s ((if not 2s)) and hit on 3s)

BA would be harder nut to crack, switching some Dark Lances to Disintegrators to negate FNP might be useful. And as I have 60 points to spare according to your calculations I can add more agonizers.

TBH i'd cut the Prow of the archon boat, give the archon a field and take a third SSylesh, it won't do much, but it will at least keep your power player that much more survivable. Remember that BA have fast vindis (meaning that, where Roads are present, they can move from OUTSIDE lance range and fire their cannon)

Either way, both match ups are nasty against that list... (hell, 2 cruaders wound mop up after the lances are taken down, which, a smart BA player would have no issue with)



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Laosiamus wrote:Id say its a little early to claim something isnt competitive since the army isnt even "officially" out yet. sure some people are getting their codex but I cant even buy mine at my store yet

I got mine via the mail, from GW, its official (thus the picture on page 1).

and its called being on the cutting edge, if not, how would you know that Windows 8 is gonna suck like Vista?

Also, in other news, I'm taking a liking to Wracks, if for no other reason then their names...

Wrackem Wrack, Wrackem Wrack, Wrackem Wrack, WRACKBALL!

I got 1690(points for the list), and against things like MSU SW and just about any BA list, you are still getting crushed. LB still crushes you.. really any competitve list still crushes you when you are playing DE.

And to those who are thinking "Well its not fair to compare them against the top competitve lists out there"... guess what, you can't use that as an argument against someone claiming that they are UNCOMPETITIVE.

How is MSU SW going to wreck this? Grey Hunters are just normal tactical when fighting Wyches, Liquifiers can annihilate whole squads and everything and their mother has FNP so flamers aren't going to do much. TWCs are going to lose to wyches (enjoy your -2 attacks).

BA would be harder nut to crack, switching some Dark Lances to Disintegrators to negate FNP might be useful. And as I have 60 points to spare according to your calculations I can add more agonizers.

And then you mention the infamous Leafblower... Sorry to burst your bubble but Leafblower is mostly made of hot air and one BOLS writer's big ego. It's track record hasn't been that amazing (check ETC for example). Dark Eldar can exploit its dead zones easily and annihilate bubble wrap squads for free tokens.

I really really want you to tell me why do you think that these lists will be unbeatable by DE when both players have equal skill-level? Now it just seems that you make strong statements and then try to switch the burden of proof to your opponents.

how many games have you played with the new rules Ren?? Thats what I meant by to early to claim non-competitive

Modquisition on. This thread has been reported. Lets all ratchet it down a little bit and remember, very few poeple actually have this codex yet.

Laosiamus wrote:how many games have you played with the new rules Ren?? Thats what I meant by to early to claim non-competitive

Yeah I get your point, thats also why I mentioned that in an earlier post (see "3.5" on page one) but based on what I am reading here in the new official de, they seem alot weaker then they once were...