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This is what you do when someone say DE are weak. Laugh in there face and say, "Yeah, if your to dumb to learn tactics and can't figure out what cover and hit & run is."

Popsicle wrote:They're not weak. They're fragile.

Poisoned 4+ Rapid Fire Weapons across the board, Heat Lances with Melta and Lances Rules... these aren't weak.

4+ Saves, 10 10 10 Open-Topped... these are fragile.

/Thread.

Very true. Armies do not need AV14 and Strength/toughness 4 across the board to be "strong".

Luthon1234 wrote:What I don't get is that a lot of the too "weak" crowd are old DE players. I've only been playing DE for about 4 years now and this codex while changed some of my tactics and list building, is a welcomed changed.

I think the reason the old DE players are complaining is because they're mostly only using their old armies, which in the new codex don't work. They don't work because what worked back then has been demphasized in favor of newer units and options. What was the rule for every occaision is now only true in some circumstances. I feel its no different than taking an army list for a previous edition and without changing things up and expecting it to play the same way.

Its just like any updated codex only some of the old trick still work, while others are completely replaced with new ones.

I keep pointing at Darklances as the prime example of this change. Before they were a necessity and so DE armies were flooded with them. Now there are vehicle hunting alternatives like Voidravens or Truborns on venoms... even reavers with heatlance seems to have decent viability. No surprise these potent choices outweigh the call to saturate Warriors and Raiders with Darklances.

DE hit harder than Space Marines, and die like guardsmen... The stated weakness of lack of crowd control is reallly only significant if no wyches are present. They tear Orks and Guardsmen to ribbons. Considering that Hecatrix Bloodbrides (and who really would use normal Wyches, unless going 100% wych cult, when thier big advantage is being scoring, and they are a extremely fragile assault unit, the exact opposite of the ideal objective holders) can get up to 64 attacks from a unit of 10, and only 5 of them rise above S3, or have a power weapon, they really, really exel at crowd control. That being said, 64 attacks is overkill against marines, even terminators, considering their 4+ invul.

What doesn't tear guardsmen to ribbons? You don't need a specialist CC unit like Wyches for that. 3 Tac Marines will on average defeat 10 Guardsmen in CC. Wyches in fact, if anything, they are rather overkill in that role, which seems to be much of the DE problem with IG armies I've found. Great at killing big scary expensive things. Terrifyingly good at it. Trygon? DE will put it down faster than just about anyone else. Landraiders? likewise. Deathstar units? DE will tear them apart. Then when it comes to the stuff that there's simply a lot of that doesn't require such powerful abilities/weapons/wargear they tend not to have enough. If facing down a couple heavily armored land raiders, 3 Rhino's along with a dread and a couple Land Speeders, along with maybe 40something elite infantry, DE will have no problems at all. Facing more than a dozen light/medium tanks and 70+ weeny infantry and DE have some real problems.

sniperjolly wrote:DE hit harder than Space Marines, and die like guardsmen... The stated weakness of lack of crowd control is reallly only significant if no wyches are present. ...

I think the Razorwing with missiles and cannons, and disintegrators on Raider do a decent job of dealing with hoards.

The bombers instead - two of the S7 missiles and 2 S6 missiles, both large blast, remove hordes with ease in one turn of shooting, after moving 12"....

The Razorwing comes standard with 4x missiles and gets to upgrade those missiles to the other types for cheaper, on top of getting 12 poison shots as opposed to two lance shots, and can also shoot in the same way as the bomber.

The bomber comes with no missiles and you have to pay for each missile. So with 4 missiles added the bomber costs 185, compared to the fighter at 145.

You may want vehicle kill capabiltiy, but the razorwing at its baseline configuration is better in an anti-infantry role. There is a particular point where both can end up overlapping in roles and the cost effectiveness lies in choosing the one who's baseline configuration is closes to the role you want.

I prefer the Voidraven over the Razorwing, because I'm relying on my aircraft for more of my anti-tank capabilites, but if I were going up against hoard lists I'd want Razorwings.

I was chucking the bomber in because a) S9 lances are golden and b) it dual roles very well - plus AV11 is a big bonus from AV10. You no longer worry about Bolters for a start

Its basically a comparison of: 4 missiles vs AV11, voidlance, and a bomb ...at the same cost. Another way to look at it, is if you take the bomber how much those missiles would cost... 40pts for AV11, void lances as opposed to the razorwing's darklances, and a bomb.

Yep, and to me the comparison is a no brainer. S9 vs S8 makes a BIG difference, the void mine is a freebie (and awkward rules - the "is a weapon" suggests no flat out, but flat out only restricts weapons in the shooting phase....) and AV11 means the most prolific guns cannot hurt me, and significantly drops the success rate of hydras.

Those are merits unto themselves, but I was saying relative to the point value. Its 20% weapon performance improvement, armor that protects gainst small arms, and the bomb... for 40pts, or 1/3 the cost more.

The advantage of the Razorwing is that it is a more cost effective missile carrier, that if your fielding aircraft for the missiles then the Razorwing is more worth while. The missiles tend to be anti-infantry, thus the Razorwing is inherently anti-infantry.

This arguement is much the same as the modern day arguement of F22s and F35s. One can do everything better buts cost more. The other in a specific role is just as effective and its in that role that its meant to performs. One is more survivable but one is more expendable.

If I am selecting an aircraft only because I need those missiles and a little shooting I will select the razorwing, because those 40 points can do more good elsewhere. If I'm hunting bigger enemies and expect longevity that the Voidraven is the obvious choice.

In comparing the two its important to realize that most enemies will know well enough of the Voidravens weapons and with a lack of real armored vehicles in the list those higher strength guns will be aimed for it and AV11 really won't mean as much.

I think ambiguity of the voidmine rules border on making it useless. There are two ways to look at it... its a shooting attack that occurs in the movement and the "counts as using a weapon" refers to it as such than flat out movement would disallow its use and it becomes useless since you will have to turn around to face the unit you just bombed to shoot at it in the shooting phase and in general benefit from staying at arms length from your opponent.

Or its rules are read as a special attack like bladevanes that occurs in the movement and that the "counts as using a weapon" is meant only to convey that the attack expends its single use.

Its still a worthwhile model, it just when you pump it up with 4 missiles I think its point cost to relative benefit goes a skew.

Its also an excuse to build a cool DE bomber, which swings it back in my eyes

Its slightly more than 20% as well, as it pays off in cracking smaller transports (AV10/11) to help get to the juicy meat inside with your wyches.

Overall its a pretty tight codex, ruleswise. Can see potential issues around Djinn blade and getting the +2A (Bearer vs wielder), but not too bad overall. they even thought about making vehicles always use the higher RoF splinter cannon mode (but not Talos ) and explicit ranged poison weapon rules.

Melissia wrote:You're probably hearing that from them because they're incompetent.

^^This.

The only reason they're saying DE are weak is because theyre trying to play DE like they play their spess mehreens.

I'd say that too if it were just DE noobs struggling, but its veterans too. That why I attribute it to the available models dictating selection driving poor unit selection.

I run daemons...right now I'm scared because my B.A. mostrous creatures aren't so B.A. to DE.

No-ones are to be fair. Which on the upside does mean bad-times for Mephiston which in his current state, is a good thing.

I only got a chance to look at a preview version of the 'dex, but from what I've seen, I'm actually rather frightened at the thought of facing DE on the tabletop (I'm Orks.)

The amount of fast moving hurt that they have is truly insane, and while what they have is fragile, it can still dish out a ton of pain via the poisoned weapons. As stated before, they'll likely suffer against Mech Guard, but in all honesty who doesn't?

Vaktathi wrote:What doesn't tear guardsmen to ribbons? You don't need a specialist CC unit like Wyches for that. 3 Tac Marines will on average defeat 10 Guardsmen in CC. Wyches in fact, if anything, they are rather overkill in that role, which seems to be much of the DE problem with IG armies I've found. Great at killing big scary expensive things. Terrifyingly good at it. Trygon? DE will put it down faster than just about anyone else. Landraiders? likewise. Deathstar units? DE will tear them apart. Then when it comes to the stuff that there's simply a lot of that doesn't require such powerful abilities/weapons/wargear they tend not to have enough. If facing down a couple heavily armored land raiders, 3 Rhino's along with a dread and a couple Land Speeders, along with maybe 40something elite infantry, DE will have no problems at all. Facing more than a dozen light/medium tanks and 70+ weeny infantry and DE have some real problems.

As one of the Old Skool DE players, I can tell you they could handle the horde armies, typically with 3 tricks:

(i) Bust the transports at 36" and make the PBI trudge up to them
(ii) A few small CC units to counter-attack out and speed-bump them - Wyches, Beasts were ideal for that
(iii) Shoot and retire - The humble Splinter Rifle in BS4 hands could drop most hordey things quite nicely.

The gusy who struggled were the ones who maxed out on the Gun Line, or had none of it. The really good DE builds were Gu Line heavy, or assualt heavy, but had enough of t'other to felx (Yup, build a Wych army, but just to be saf take 3 Ravagers and put D/L on all the Raiders - that sort of thing.

I think the reason is Old Skoolers are unhappy with the new Codex is that it taketh away a lot without giveth-ing. I hear people say oh we just don't "get" tactics, or hit and run, or cover, or whatever - we do. Its just that if you do the maths you find that the average "price per" has gone up, ie you gets less for your hard earned points, and it doesn't take a lot of braincell to realise that equals a weaker army. Yes, you can duck and weave, but if the basic prices have gone up yiou knowe you get less bangs for your bucks.

Bear in mind too that most of us also play other armies, so we do know the difference between a well designed new Codex and one that is not so good (I have Orks, IG and CSM - Orks and IG did very well, CSM got nerfed IMO)

Melissia wrote:You're probably hearing that from them because they're incompetent.

That's all it is. The new dark eldar codex requires some degree of skill. It's not as easy as playing guard, blood angels or space wolves.

What will be the most hilarious thing is playing someone who gave up DE and went back to one of the above three, and then playing against DE and losing horribly, again, and again.

Firewarriors don't tear guardians to ribbons...

I'll need to get around to checking the Codex, but as an Eldar player, while I'm pleased for DEldar players I am not pleased on how it makes Eldar look in comparison.

Apart from Psychics and AV12 tanks, it looks like DEldar do everything Eldar do... but better. They have specialist units for doing different things but some of them have the versatility to mix it up. Their gunline has better range and Rate of Fire. Hell they even get open topped transports to assault from. The one thing I hate about Eldar is having to make a transport stand still just to be able to assault on the turn you disembark... from the rear hatch. You can't even swivel on the spot because that counts as moving... ugh.

Anyway, as I said this is just my uninformed view. Someone at the Club I go to should have it so I'll have a better look then, and all I can hope is that they do an equally good job when they eventually revamp the Eldar codex.

syanticraven wrote:Firewarriors don't tear guardians to ribbons...

Considering Firewarriors can shoot Guardians from the other side of the table with their Str5 guns, while guardians are only going to get shots with whatever support weapon they brought (so 1-4 shots at BS3 vs at least 10 BS3 shots), I think Firewarriors have the better odds. They aren't going to tear them to ribbons, but they'll do a lot more than Guardians can.

Popsicle wrote:They're not weak. They're fragile.

Poisoned 4+ Rapid Fire Weapons across the board, Heat Lances with Melta and Lances Rules... these aren't weak.

4+ Saves, 10 10 10 Open-Topped... these are fragile.

/Thread.

exactly

And I think that people are more upset that the normal way the DE work hasnt changed. Look at the other armies that just got codecii. Angels and wolves got huge shifts with new units like thunderwolf cav and all fast transport vehicles as examples. Guard got almost all their forge world units as standard now. DE, Still lances and beat down in cc, but they do it better now. Maybe people were looking for a paradigm shift away from this? but thats what makes the army not SM or IG, so I like it

Starting DE is gonna be exciting. already have most of the army ready to go, and i cant wait to get my 3 ravagers this month.

Freecloud - except you ignore the bonuses you have that you dont before.

Greater speed. Ravagers now able to fire all 3 DL after moving 12". Reavers being able to turbo 36" AND being able to do some hurt while doing so. Wracks as troops, giving you resilient core scoring units.

Wyches have gone down in points, up in general effectiveness. Blasters have gone up dramatically in effectiveness (18" range is a big deal over 12") and you now have better incubi to deal with nails stuff that just needs to die.

You also underestimate PtP: this increases your bang massively, as you can cheaply outfit 3 wych / warrior / trueborn squads with FNP at the start of the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ravagers now able to fire all 3 DL after moving 12".

This a thousand times this, is so simply disgusting, I have no idea how long it will take people to become used to mobile tri-lance platforms, it really make me feel sick with pleasure to contemplate using it.

I realize that there are trade offs, but wouldn't a squad of properly equipped Trueborn in a raider be a more effective unit?

More expensive mainly, as well as if you move over 6" you're disembarking to fire - bad news for low save space elves. You could put a Haemi with them but then you only have 4 trueborn.

I've been diassecting my old list compared to the new rules. I'm nowhere near done and it will likely take me a month to be finished. As far as seeing cost go up, that is true but without perspective. Blasters are a good example of this. From 5 or 6 points (depending on what unit had them) to 15. What's missed is they now have 18" range which is so worth it!

I completely re-did my old HQ. Archon w/ Incubi Retinue mounted and in the new rules I come in 3 points under what the old list cost. Points wise not a big difference but rules wise given things like PfP, poison and everything else this is phenomenal.

Nearly the same thing happened with Wyches. About 3 points less, but now they are troops, PfP, Poison. They only lost their Blasters which is no big deal given they're an assault unit.

Conversely the only unit I've looked at that is worse off, points wise is the Raider Squad. Same build comes out 22 points more in the new codex. So I really have to define their purpose and slim them down to perform it.

Rymafyr wrote:I've been diassecting my old list compared to the new rules. I'm nowhere near done and it will likely take me a month to be finished. As far as seeing cost go up, that is true but without perspective. Blasters are a good example of this. From 5 or 6 points (depending on what unit had them) to 15. What's missed is they now have 18" range which is so worth it!

I completely re-did my old HQ. Archon w/ Incubi Retinue mounted and in the new rules I come in 3 points under what the old list cost. Points wise not a big difference but rules wise given things like PfP, poison and everything else this is phenomenal.

Nearly the same thing happened with Wyches. About 3 points less, but now they are troops, PfP, Poison. They only lost their Blasters which is no big deal given they're an assault unit.

Conversely the only unit I've looked at that is worse off, points wise is the Raider Squad. Same build comes out 22 points more in the new codex. So I really have to define their purpose and slim them down to perform it.

The warrior sniper squad is totally screwed. Overall I think most people are coming to similar conclusions - the "fighty" units are better, thae "shooty" ones less good as they are pre-paying for combat toys (PfP etc) and their big guns have become more costly. Those who like to play the "Shooty" DE are grumpy, the "Fighty" set are overall happier, and those of us who like flexibility in an army are grumpy as we are being forced down a one trick pony route.

And we all love the figures......

I recently bought a lot of Old-model dark eldar (apparently I'm in the 1% of players that like the older models) and I'm extremely excited to play them. I think they look fun as hell. Can't wait to get them in