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agroszkiewicz wrote:Different units are different. Shocking.

What a helpful comment. I'm fairly certain that has been covered in the thread. Even more, it has also been covered that the two units are surrounded by different units that may add value to them, so it is not just comparing things in a vacuum.

However, Guardian units are not just different to Kabalite Warriors, they are considerably worse in several ways for a saving of just one point. I'm not throwing toys out of a pram bemoaning the state of the world. In fact, I asked for constructive arguments to see how I may be able to mitigate the issues I described.

Your post achieved none of those things and added nothing to the discussion.

Pointless post is pointless. Shocking.

Eldar are waiting for their turn at a points 'rebalance.' This really isn't new news. Small groups of Dire Avengers or Storm Guardians are your best options for troops. Thankfully their elites still do their jobs well. Their transports are pricey but are fairly resilient.

It's just showing age. I bet every BT player out there wants their free Flamers and 35 point Rhinos.

Wait, why aren't my Deathwing Terminators as good as Wolf Guard Terminators for the same points? Why are my tactical squads not as good as Codex: Marines tactical squads? Why are Chaos Marines the same price as my squads but with better equipment options? Why don't my Stormtroopers get AP3 hellguns when Imperial Guard ones do?

They're not the same units, they serve different purposes, and the respective codices are years apart. I'm sincerely surprised anyone uses Guardians anyway.

the only reason I can think of for people to use Guardians are for their support weapons, rather than the guardians themselves.

buhuu my codex is soo bad!

why didn't you start complaining when orks or imps came out and had tons of units more price effective than some(!) units in your codex??
you will just have to suck it up and wait for the new eldar dex, like the dark eldar had to for the past 12 years.
showing some empathy and being happy for someone else or even just shutting up instead of making a big mess of something rather insignificant would show true greatness.

furthermore how can you be seriously comparing a brand new codex with any old one?
since a few years every codex that came out was kickass and put the respective army in the top places at basically any tournament because they got new stuff that just kicked everyones butts, thats just the way it is.
some call it an evil well thought-out plan of GW to get top sales with everything new they do...

ahh and btw:

They're not the same units, they serve different purposes, and the respective codices are years apart. I'm sincerely surprised anyone uses Guardians anyway.

/signed

sieek wrote:furthermore how can you be seriously comparing a brand new codex with any old one?

Because we still have to use it.

well no one forces you to.
don't complain about something you yourself could have chosen to do differently.

EDIT: was missing a word...

I feel bad for my eldar cousins, while their codex worked in 4th and to a degree their still good in 5th I just never really under stood why GW had to raise the price on Eldar heavy weapons. I think if they would at least lower the price on their weapons it wouldn't be that bad.

sieek wrote:buhuu my codex is soo bad!

why didn't you start complaining when orks or imps came out and had tons of units more price effective than some(!) units in your codex??
you will just have to suck it up and wait for the new eldar dex, like the dark eldar had to for the past 12 years.
showing some empathy and being happy for someone else or even just shutting up instead of making a big mess of something rather insignificant would show true greatness.

furthermore how can you be seriously comparing a brand new codex with any old one?
since a few years every codex that came out was kickass and put the respective army in the top places at basically any tournament because they got new stuff that just kicked everyones butts, thats just the way it is.
some call it an evil well thought-out plan of GW to get top sales with everything new they do...

While generally correct I can't understand your attitude in general. The OP made a valid point which hasn't made sense in years - how can the Guardians be so weak? Although some of the profile differences between Guardians/Kabalites are understandable (ferocity, completely different environment).

I remember Power Weapons being dropped from the Ork list because the author felt that the Boyz shouldn't be Nob delivering systems, though it took a while for the basic ork to show his true strength. The only advantage I can see from Guardians would be the Heavy Weapon with X ablative wounds, and to some extend the Warlock. Giving them range 12" ShuriCats was just silly, it would probably be better if they had kept the Lasguns from 2nd Edition.

I think the main point was to keep them moving and assaulting something, tying up the enemy while the better assault troops, like Banshees and Scorpions, could make it in.

sieek wrote:well no one forces you to.
don't complain about something you yourself could have chosen to do differently.

EDIT: was missing a word...

Yeah, Eldar players should just use Codex Blood Angels like all the cool kids.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I think the main point was to keep them moving and assaulting something, tying up the enemy while the better assault troops, like Banshees and Scorpions, could make it in.

Might be a valid point if they had a reasonable armor and/or toughness. And if Storm Guardians (which have a basic Close Combat kit) didn't exist. But Guardians don't have good toughness or armor, and Storm Guardians do exist. So that's not the reason why Guardian Defenders current take up space in the codex.

Plus, that doesn't mesh with the long-range support weapon that the squad is forced to take.

Seems like they ought to be able to form a rear/midfield objective holder, or a mid-level firebase. That would go with their "Defender" title.

They might be better if they could organize a little more like an IG platoon, able to take multiple platforms along with infantry squads.

Probably the best thing one can do with them now is take a missile launcher and a warlock with Embolden, to sit on an objective with a support battery nearby. Or use Conceal and a scatter laser for a more aggressive role, supporting other advancing units. Either way, one would want to take more than one squad, and an infantry-heavy list is implied rather than a mechanized list.

sieek wrote:buhuu my codex is soo bad!

why didn't you start complaining when orks or imps came out and had tons of units more price effective than some(!) units in your codex??

Because they are not directly comparable.

you will just have to suck it up and wait for the new eldar dex, like the dark eldar had to for the past 12 years.
showing some empathy and being happy for someone else or even just shutting up instead of making a big mess of something rather insignificant would show true greatness.

Yeah, 'cos they were so stoic, right? And it is not remotely about DE players anyway. Lucky them. I've been waiting for a decent DE Codex since 1992. I doubt you've even been playing that long (since you were four years old at the time.)

I'd hardly say I made a big mess. I asked some questions in a reasonable way, and resonded politely to any who replied.

furthermore how can you be seriously comparing a brand new codex with any old one?

Because they are both for the same game and are both current.

since a few years every codex that came out was kickass and put the respective army in the top places at basically any tournament because they got new stuff that just kicked everyones butts, thats just the way it is.

Doesn't make it right.

some call it an evil well thought-out plan of GW to get top sales with everything new they do...

Still doesn't make it right.

ahh and btw:

They're not the same units, they serve different purposes, and the respective codices are years apart. I'm sincerely surprised anyone uses Guardians anyway.

/signed

They are both troop choices with a similar points cost. Kabalite Warriors can serve the same purpose as Guardians, mainy holding objectives, do it far better, and cost only 1 point more.

But hey, thanks for the smug reply.

Is is just me, or does the Dark Eldar codex seem overpowered at least. They have poisoned weaponry with awesome troops and fast assault transports for cheap and they can make almost any type of army imaginable. In the battle reports section I am still waiting for a game in which they lose to anyone for any reason.

rivers64 wrote:Is is just me, or does the Dark Eldar codex seem overpowered at least. They have poisoned weaponry with awesome troops and fast assault transports for cheap and they can make almost any type of army imaginable. In the battle reports section I am still waiting for a game in which they lose to anyone for any reason.

I think part of the reason they seem over powered is because so many people have been playing them for years (even I was able to play them well in their previous codex) so between past experience and these changes well things got easier, but they arent this almighty race they still have paper armor and cardboard boxes for transports but with how they work you just need to be somewhat craftier than usual

It's the age old story of invalidation.

I'm a Space Marines player. The Space Wolves and Blood Angels codex invalidated the Space Marines codex even worse than Dark Eldar vs. Eldar.

I feel bad for people with bad codices. Some folks spend $1000~ on an army, only to become outdated within a mere few years.

I'm just so glad all the armies I bought can be competitive

It's the age old story of invalidation.

I'm a Space Marines player. The Space Wolves and Blood Angels codex invalidated the Space Marines codex even worse than Dark Eldar vs. Eldar.

I don't know that this is entirely true. Both of the codices are better, however Vulcan and Bike builds are still pretty good. Not only that, but you can "count as" very easily with Space Marine models. Not a bad situation.

As to the OP, everything comes in cycles. It does suck though. Eldar are an army that the phrase "they can still win" will be thrown around for. They CAN win, but really have to do it in boring ways. The units in the codex are so hit or miss. Really, they have to be mechanized and have to play to win in the context of the game (which most don't like). You can contest objectives last second very well with Waveserpents. You can use some measure of durability to attempt to kite and win KP missions 4-3. Wiping the opponent out is usually not going to happen. The opponent rolling well on the vehicle damage table can be devastating.

Overall, the staples of 5th edition 40k are strong troop and transport choices. Good armies have good troops. Bad armies can usually point to that section of the FOC as a major reason. Eldar have no "good" options at the troop section.

A better comparison or indeed a more interesting point is: If the Eldar codex gets updated during 5th, will the harlequins be adjusted? Because (AFAIK) aren't the two entries in both books the same?


On actuall topic. I would asume any DE that go on a slave raid/battle to be at leas slightly better trained than Eldar artisans. Hence the difference.

Yes, but they do have the Wraithlord, which with the exception of Apocalypse units, has the highest Toughness of any model in 40K. I know it's not a Troops unit, I just can't stand people whining that "MY CODEX GOT RUINED!" or "HIS CODEX IS TOO POWERFUL!". Plus, out of all the White Dwarf battles involving Eldar I've seen (which, admittedly, amounts to 2) the Eldar have always won-and they were fighting Imperial Guard.

Oh what the hell.

TYRANIDS FOR THE WIN!

VikingScott wrote:On actuall topic. I would asume any DE that go on a slave raid/battle to be at leas slightly better trained than Eldar artisans. Hence the difference.

Though it's a valid point and one that I agree with, I don't think people worry about the stat-lines themselves so much. What gets people annoyed are two things -

- The minor difference in cost per model between blatantly superior and inferior models, and
- The Splinter Rifle versus the Shurikan Catapult - though in this case it has more to do with the long-standing absurdity regarding the range on the Shurikan Catapult than anything in particular about the Splinter Rifle.

Yeah, fluffwise I am happy with the difference.

I don't feel Avengers are actually bad either. Even if you made avengers cost just 10 points, and included three units of nine avengers each (more than I ever would) you'd save only 54 points. Hardly game-breaking. It just irks me.

Also, shuriken catapults suck. That much is easy to agree on.

Really when you think about it the Guardian/Kabalite Warrior comparison isn't the best one. Guardians are effectively craftworld militia and not necessarily the standing "military." Kabalite Warriors are the standing "military," that the lesser Dark Eldar are left at home since they've been unable to prove themselves to a house. For those reasons I think a Dire Avenger/Kabalite Warrior comparison is a more meaningful one, since the Dark Eldar equivalent to Guardians aren't present on the battlefield.

At the basis of the argument, Defender Guardians are probably one of the worst troop choices in the game since they seem to be overcosted and dont really know what they're suppose to do. However there are other great choices in the Codex, namely the Wraithlord (as said, one of the only two creatures in non-apoc games with T8, the other being the C'tan Nightbringer), pathfinders (who due to the wording in the codex now gets rending on both to hit and to wound) and Banshees (who never really sucked to begin with). Dire Avengers are also probably the most tactically flexible units after actual Tactical Squads.

At the basis of the argument, Defender Guardians are probably one of the worst troop choices in the game since they seem to be overcosted and dont really know what they're suppose to do. However there are other great choices in the Codex, namely the Wraithlord (as said, one of the only two creatures in non-apoc games with T8, the other being the C'tan Nightbringer), pathfinders (who due to the wording in the codex now gets rending on both to hit and to wound) and Banshees (who never really sucked to begin with). Dire Avengers are also probably the most tactically flexible units after actual Tactical Squads.

I disagree with just about all of this. Wraithlord has a high toughness and people get enamored by that. They have only three wounds and die very easily to anti tank fire as they have no invulnerable save and are hard pressed to find cover. They are slow, and really aren't very good in close combat. They average 1 kill per turn against WS 4 foes. Which leaves them in a shooting role, in which they have to pay for incredibly over costed weapons. War Walkers do it better. The Wraithlord just isn't very good.

Pathfinders are ok, until you realize they are 25 points each. They also rely on fighting non-mech armies (almost everyone is) or hitting de-meched targets. Even then, 1 shot each means and expensive unit gets 1-2 kills depending on the roll. They die so easily to anything up close and deep stikers. Not that good.

The Banshees are not good. They look like it on paper, but are nothing but an overpriced counter assault unit. They cannot actively go after targets because they have to wait to disembark. Wave Serpents can't pivot if you want the Banshees to charge. Which means that you basically have to zoom right up to an opponent, survive in the WS, then get out and run the distance up the WS to reach combat. The destruction of a Wave Serpent hurts their T3 4+ a whole lot. Any shooting destroys them. They are completely reliant on charging a doomed target. Bottom line with these guys; if you want a counter assault unit the Avatar does it for cheap. If you are playing assault Eldar, you are playing them wrong.

Dire Avengers are absolutely not tactically flexible. They can be run bare bones (aka ineffective), kitted for shooting (aka expensive hoard killer), or shimmer shield tarpit (aka expensive tarpit). There is nothing flexible about them. They are not durable at all. They are horrible in assault. They are ok versus hoards. The problem is that a kitted out 10 man squad with a Dual Shriukat Bladestroming Exarch in a Wave Serpent is around 260+ points. They are effective against hoards and nothing else.

The Eldar codex is bad because it is so limited. Everything is so expensive and adds up so fast. A Wave Serpent is good, but also clock in at 110+ with a missile launcher and spirit stones.

HQ- Eldrad at 1250+, Farseer, Avatar are the choices
Elites- Fire Dragons. Seriously, the rest are not good.
Troops- Min squads of Avengers in Wave Serpents is the most competitive. Guardians suck. Bikes aren't that good either. As over priced as they are, the Eldar need troops in the Serpents to cap objectives.
Fast Attack- not very good. Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, and Vipers all cost too much for marginal at best units.
Heavy Support- Fire Prism with holo field and stones or War Walkers. That's it.

I'm not one to proclaim units flat out bad all that often. I have seen my main opponent try just about every unit/build imaginable with Eldar over the course of a year and a half. They have some real inherent issues. As I've said in a previous post, they can win in the context of the game. They do not have lots of flexibility in making a competitive build. They end up being a small elite army that is only moderately durable and lacking in real fire power. Eldar need an codex update pretty badly.

JGrand wrote:

At the basis of the argument, Defender Guardians are probably one of the worst troop choices in the game since they seem to be overcosted and dont really know what they're suppose to do. However there are other great choices in the Codex, namely the Wraithlord (as said, one of the only two creatures in non-apoc games with T8, the other being the C'tan Nightbringer), pathfinders (who due to the wording in the codex now gets rending on both to hit and to wound) and Banshees (who never really sucked to begin with). Dire Avengers are also probably the most tactically flexible units after actual Tactical Squads.

I disagree with just about all of this. Wraithlord has a high toughness and people get enamored by that. They have only three wounds and die very easily to anti tank fire as they have no invulnerable save and are hard pressed to find cover. They are slow, and really aren't very good in close combat. They average 1 kill per turn against WS 4 foes. Which leaves them in a shooting role, in which they have to pay for incredibly over costed weapons. War Walkers do it better. The Wraithlord just isn't very good.

Pathfinders are ok, until you realize they are 25 points each. They also rely on fighting non-mech armies (almost everyone is) or hitting de-meched targets. Even then, 1 shot each means and expensive unit gets 1-2 kills depending on the roll. They die so easily to anything up close and deep stikers. Not that good.

The Banshees are not good. They look like it on paper, but are nothing but an overpriced counter assault unit. They cannot actively go after targets because they have to wait to disembark. Wave Serpents can't pivot if you want the Banshees to charge. Which means that you basically have to zoom right up to an opponent, survive in the WS, then get out and run the distance up the WS to reach combat. The destruction of a Wave Serpent hurts their T3 4+ a whole lot. Any shooting destroys them. They are completely reliant on charging a doomed target. Bottom line with these guys; if you want a counter assault unit the Avatar does it for cheap. If you are playing assault Eldar, you are playing them wrong.

Dire Avengers are absolutely not tactically flexible. They can be run bare bones (aka ineffective), kitted for shooting (aka expensive hoard killer), or shimmer shield tarpit (aka expensive tarpit). There is nothing flexible about them. They are not durable at all. They are horrible in assault. They are ok versus hoards. The problem is that a kitted out 10 man squad with a Dual Shriukat Bladestroming Exarch in a Wave Serpent is around 260+ points. They are effective against hoards and nothing else.

The Eldar codex is bad because it is so limited. Everything is so expensive and adds up so fast. A Wave Serpent is good, but also clock in at 110+ with a missile launcher and spirit stones.

HQ- Eldrad at 1250+, Farseer, Avatar are the choices
Elites- Fire Dragons. Seriously, the rest are not good.
Troops- Min squads of Avengers in Wave Serpents is the most competitive. Guardians suck. Bikes aren't that good either. As over priced as they are, the Eldar need troops in the Serpents to cap objectives.
Fast Attack- not very good. Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, and Vipers all cost too much for marginal at best units.
Heavy Support- Fire Prism with holo field and stones or War Walkers. That's it.

I'm not one to proclaim units flat out bad all that often. I have seen my main opponent try just about every unit/build imaginable with Eldar over the course of a year and a half. They have some real inherent issues. As I've said in a previous post, they can win in the context of the game. They do not have lots of flexibility in making a competitive build. They end up being a small elite army that is only moderately durable and lacking in real fire power. Eldar need an codex update pretty badly.

Hmm I fought eldrad before he just dosent seem all that good, I feel the avatar could be a must but more than likely he will be killed very fast. For elites are you trying to tell me that wraithguard arent good? Sure they are not cheap but most certainly crap for what they are, look at it this way atleast their guns have a reason for having low range (they actually do not suck)

Fast attack is more so added goodies so if you had the points I'd vote for warp spiders. What ever happened to the Dark Reapers? I mean they arent crap you know S5 AP3 48" Heavy 2 that isnt bad, although 5 guys counting the exarch is rather low but still add in crackshot or quickshot and they can do some good there. Also the night spinner dosent seem all that bad either.

Long story short, with the game changing I think you may be overlooking some units that might actually deserve a chance in the spotlight, also I'd like to input that necrons need a codex way more than eldar do

Hmm I fought eldrad before he just dosent seem all that good, I feel the avatar could be a must but more than likely he will be killed very fast. For elites are you trying to tell me that wraithguard arent good? Sure they are not cheap but most certainly crap for what they are, look at it this way atleast their guns have a reason for having low range (they actually do not suck)

Fast attack is more so added goodies so if you had the points I'd vote for warp spiders. What ever happened to the Dark Reapers? I mean they arent crap you know S5 AP3 48" Heavy 2 that isnt bad, although 5 guys counting the exarch is rather low but still add in crackshot or quickshot and they can do some good there. Also the night spinner dosent seem all that bad either.

Long story short, with the game changing I think you may be overlooking some units that might actually deserve a chance in the spotlight, also I'd like to input that necrons need a codex way more than eldar do

Eldrad is 200 points for a super Farseer. He is a good buy at high enough point levels. The Avatar is a tough nut to crack. He has great toughness and saves, plus is immune to melta. He is a good counter assault unit for a cheap price.

Wraithguard? Really? They are 35 (off the top of my head) points for a 1 wound model with 1 shot and no close combat ability. The guns are strong, but you have to deliver them. 5 with a Warlock in a Waveserpent is 300+ points for a unit that gets dropped off, hits with 3/5 shots and does 2-3 wounds after that. They better choose an expensive target because they will be charged after that. They are so over costed it hurts.

Warp Spider and Dark Reapers sum up the Eldar codex in a nut shell; almost. They are almost good. If they were cheaper of had some small tweaks they would be good. As it stands they are incredibly over priced. Dark Reapers are not good in a mechanized environment. Warp Spiders have the strength and shots but no AP. Either way Dark Reapers are 35 points and Spiders are too many as well.

JGrand wrote:

Hmm I fought eldrad before he just dosent seem all that good, I feel the avatar could be a must but more than likely he will be killed very fast. For elites are you trying to tell me that wraithguard arent good? Sure they are not cheap but most certainly crap for what they are, look at it this way atleast their guns have a reason for having low range (they actually do not suck)

Fast attack is more so added goodies so if you had the points I'd vote for warp spiders. What ever happened to the Dark Reapers? I mean they arent crap you know S5 AP3 48" Heavy 2 that isnt bad, although 5 guys counting the exarch is rather low but still add in crackshot or quickshot and they can do some good there. Also the night spinner dosent seem all that bad either.

Long story short, with the game changing I think you may be overlooking some units that might actually deserve a chance in the spotlight, also I'd like to input that necrons need a codex way more than eldar do

Eldrad is 200 points for a super Farseer. He is a good buy at high enough point levels. The Avatar is a tough nut to crack. He has great toughness and saves, plus is immune to melta. He is a good counter assault unit for a cheap price.

Wraithguard? Really? They are 35 (off the top of my head) points for a 1 wound model with 1 shot and no close combat ability. The guns are strong, but you have to deliver them. 5 with a Warlock in a Waveserpent is 300+ points for a unit that gets dropped off, hits with 3/5 shots and does 2-3 wounds after that. They better choose an expensive target because they will be charged after that. They are so over costed it hurts.

Warp Spider and Dark Reapers sum up the Eldar codex in a nut shell; almost. They are almost good. If they were cheaper of had some small tweaks they would be good. As it stands they are incredibly over priced. Dark Reapers are not good in a mechanized environment. Warp Spiders have the strength and shots but no AP. Either way Dark Reapers are 35 points and Spiders are too many as well.

Actually Eldrad is 210 points but still I dunno I've seen some pretty epic fails with him (but that is a different story) Avatar T6 3+ sure immune to melta but is that really all that great? Probably not I mean bolters can still kill him and that is an issuem despite what mathhammer may say I've seen 1 tac squad drop him the second they fire at him easy.

Yeah they are expensive like I said, well does close combat ability truly matter? Probably not but for the sake of it they are S5 T6 and 3+ so they are just as hard to kill as the avatar (minus the immunity to meltas) why would run 5 with a warlock to begin with? You can always run 3+lock+wave serpent for 251pts thats cheaper.

I wouldnt say almost they seem pretty good for what they can do I mean reapers delive ranged power sure not many of them but the extra range does help. As for warp spiders why does it matter that they have no AP? I mean 5 plus exarch with x2 deathspinners is alot of shots so even if they did have AP (which would likely be low to begin with) it would not affect how many Tac Marines you kill.

And what about the night spinner? I mean it dosent seem all that bad.