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shrike wrote:

Wow. just thought this up:
Might of the ancients
soul unleashed
quickening
with my biker chaplain in the squad.
thats:
S4 standard
S5 with chaplain in the squad
S7 with relic force weapon
S8 with soul unleashed
S10 with might of the ancients.
striking at I10 with a 2+ armour, 3+ inv., T5, TL boltguns, 12" movement.

Chaplains do not give a strength bonus, just so you know. They give reroll hits and fearless.

This is fantastic and now compares well to the CSM Sorceror with his extra wound, invul and I5.

TBH I would be happy with Epost at least being able to choose a third power as well as being able to use 2 powers per turn. Gating termies with avenger or null zone would be a huge improvement, only being able to pick two powers even as epost sucks.

If this was available in the codex I would seriously consider it. Even better the awesome termi libby model is custom made for that force staff, and the libby powers are all so short range, so that artifact is just gold.

Great work, +1 support for me - now how do we ensure we get this into the next SM codex, as well as ensuring next time tactical marines remember to bring their chainswords to battle?

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

I think you missed my point, there's no way that any now living (loyalist) Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad, ten points over or not. It seems much more resonable now though. My remaining issue is a nagging feeling that this is removing all the weak points of a Librarian just to make him an insane killing machine. I don't like that.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

there's no way that any Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad

It's still fair in the rules IMHO. when you think about it, SM, being the flag race, should have better psykers (or at least one of the best)

shrike wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

there's no way that any Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad

It's still fair in the rules IMHO. when you think about it, SM, being the flag race, should have better psykers (or at least one of the best)

OK, while you're at it, why not give lascannons S10, AP1 and the lance and the melta rules regardless of range, after all, what with Space Marines being the flag race you'd think they have better ranged weapons than anyone. Seriously, just because we're the poster children doesn't mean we're better than everyone in every field.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

there's no way that any Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad

It's still fair in the rules IMHO. when you think about it, SM, being the flag race, should have better psykers (or at least one of the best)

...doesn't mean we're better than everyone in every field.

not every field... but although not 100% plausible in fluff rules compared to eldar, it is plausible in terms of rules.
going to the manager of my FLGS to go get it stamed.
willl post results later.

okay- so I have edited the libby, as the LGS manager decrees.

shrike wrote:
Fire of purgation:
This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
S4 AP5 Assault D3, blast
Warp summoning:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres, with the following profile:

WS4 BS- S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Feel no pain, fearless.
The spectres are removed from play at the end of the controlling player's turn.
The chief librarian will take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double when casting this power.
Soul unleashed:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) have +1S or A for the remainder of the player turn.

First of all, what's the range for the exploding fireballs?

And where do the spectres show up? within 6" of him?

And I agree that the points should be revised, at least for the upgrades. And the Relic Staff and the Relic Force Weapon seem OP. Perils of the warp is uncommon enough as is and doubling range of psychic powers is a little broke. Maybe +6"? Get rid of the modified perils of the warp and change the range altering rule for the staff and the points should be fine.

Other than that I like it. I'm going to see if my friends are going to let me use this at our club. I don't think they'll have a problem. Nice work!

1337m45747r0y wrote:

shrike wrote:
Fire of purgation:
This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
S4 AP5 Assault D3, blast
Warp summoning:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres, with the following profile:

WS4 BS- S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Feel no pain, fearless.
The spectres are removed from play at the end of the controlling player's turn.
The chief librarian will take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double when casting this power.
Soul unleashed:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) have +1S or A for the remainder of the player turn.

First of all, what's the range for the exploding fireballs?

12".

And where do the spectres show up? within 6" of him?

12". scatter dice. (no mishap)

And I agree that the points should be revised, at least for the upgrades. And the Relic Staff and the Relic Force Weapon seem OP. Perils of the warp is uncommon enough as is and doubling range of psychic powers is a little broke. Maybe +6"? Get rid of the modified perils of the warp and change the range altering rule for the staff and the points should be fine.

Other than that I like it. I'm going to see if my friends are going to let me use this at our club. I don't think they'll have a problem. Nice work!

hey! If you think the relic force weapon is OP, what if I increased the points to 30, and made him 140 points standard? this would mean he is a libby (100pts) with an iron halo (SS is 15, so 110pts?) with +1 W, A, I (10 points each? 140pts) so this would make him basically a libby with extra powers and captain stats. fair?

Good job. I approve. No problems except if you equip him with every single ability there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here I fixed a bit of it up and added a few things.
Chief librarian- 150pts

WS-5 BS-4 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-4 A-3 Ld-10 Sv-3+

Wargear:
Force weapon
Bolt pistol
Iron halo (they need it)
Psychic hood

Special rules:
Psyker
And they shall know know no fear
Combat Tactics
A SM chief libby has 3 psychic powers a turn. He can only use 2 per turn (unless he has been upgraded to a master psyker, In which case he can use up to 3 per turn).

Psychic powers:
All the stuff the normal libbies have
The gate of infinity doesn't have the "roll-a-double and a guy goes pop" rule.
Fire of purgation:
-A ball of pure inflaming destruction that destroys almost every single any one unlucky to be caught by its power.
This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
S4 AP5 Assault D3, blast, 12" range
Warp summoning:
-Beings of the past chapter have come back to aid their chapter, it is considered necromancy by many other chapters but some call it the righteous fury of the chapter.
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres within 12" of the librarian. Roll a scatter dice (the spectres may not mishap, they are moved the minimum distance away from the object), with the following profile:

WS4 BS- S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Feel no pain, fearless.
The spectres are removed from play at the end of the controlling player's turn.
The chief librarian will take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double when casting this power.
Soul unleashed:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) have +1S or A for the remainder of the player turn.

Options:
Artificier armour +15pts
Master psyker +50pts
Jump pack +25pts
Bike +35pts
He may replace his Force Weapon with a….
Relic force weapon +20pts
Relic staff +20pts
He May replace his Bolt Pistol/bolter
Plasma pistol +15pts
Combi-weapon +10pts
SB +3pts
He may replace his bolt pistol/bolter and his iron halo with Terminator armour with:
No additional weapons +25pts
Storm Shield +40
Storm Bolter +30pts
Combi-weapon +35pts
Force Claw +40
Relic force weapon- This is a two-handed force weapon that gives the user +2S. (in addition to the regular rules for a force weapon)
Relic staff- this is a two-handed force weapon that gives the user double the range on psychic weapons. This also means the user will only take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double-1. (in addition to the regular rules for a force weapon)
Force Claw- Is a relic of any chapter, any chapter possing this beyond no doubt ancient as these weapons are taken off skilled artisans. Gives +1 attack and you may re-roll your rolls to hit.

In addition the Chief Libarain May take a squad of Lexicanums with him which follow the following stats.
WS-5 BS-4 S-4 T-4 W-1 I-4 A-2 Ld-8 Sv-3+
They may select only one ability from the Space Marine Pyschic powers.
They are all equipped with force weapons and bolt pistols/or/bolters.
1-5 Lexicanums 50 pts each.
Special Rules:
Psyker
And they shall know know no fear
Combat Tactics
They do not count towards the max HQ

so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

shrike wrote:so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

Well the force claw is for grimteef who has a chief liby that is a termiantor. So yeah.
Anyway the Rumor is kind of true. We don't really know. They can be anyone except me.

Asherian Command wrote:

shrike wrote:so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

Well the force claw is for grimteef who has a chief liby that is a termiantor. So yeah.
Anyway the Rumor is kind of true. We don't really know. They can be anyone except me.

who's grimteef?
and if you're out there- PUT THIS IN THE NEXT SM CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shrike wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

shrike wrote:so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

Well the force claw is for grimteef who has a chief liby that is a termiantor. So yeah.
Anyway the Rumor is kind of true. We don't really know. They can be anyone except me.

who's grimteef?
and if you're out there- PUT THIS IN THE NEXT SM CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not before they put in the Chief Apothecary in! And the head quarters staff.

yh- they should have:
chief apothecary (like the sanguinary priest)
master of sanctity (like a souped-up chaplain)
chief libby

shrike wrote:yh- they should have:
chief apothecary (like the sanguinary priest)
master of sanctity (like a souped-up chaplain)
chief libby

Grim Teef is another Dakka Dakka Super Awesome l33t poster. But he hasn't been active for a while just go into army profiles under DIY Space Marines and you shall see why.

This is dangerous territory. You can justify it with point, but 140 points librarian with captain stats + iron halo is not equal - mainly because the librarian wasn't designed to function in that way. It is giving the Librarian more powers and more abilities than he should otherwise have. And no, Space Marines should not be better than the best race at something, EVER. Eldrad and the Eldar are the best psykers in the galaxy. Space Marines should not be better. If they are, it's broken. SM are the best at having a shot at doing everything well, but not the best.

I will reference something from the "Dungeon Master's Guide" here too. This Librarian is something everyone loves - implying that they would always take it, had they the option, except in lists where he does not do as well as other HQs (probably not many), and even then he might be taken as a second HQ. In D&D, the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) always makes a point that "If a spell (or ability) is so good that someone will always take it, then it's probably underpriced or overpowered."

This seems to be going along the same lines. He has RIDICULOUS spells, great survivability and wonderful stats for his points. Librarians, of any type, don't need Halo because they are not meant to survive an onslaught, they're meant to dish an onslaught, and that's all. It's why MegaNobs have Slow and Purposeful but no heavy weapons. The SnP is not meant to be a benefit, but a cost. It's why Ogryns are way overpriced, because Guard is not meant to have great assault.

Hey, can I give all my Ogryns power weapons for 10pts apiece? Sergeants can take them for 10, so as long as the cost is the same, it's fair, right? Right?

Wrong. Ogryns are never supposed to have a capability to bust through armor, so they have no options for it. To give them that benefit for 10pts is a gross underpricing. 10 is fine for a Sergeant because a Sergeant has 3 attacks (4 on the charge), 3 WS and 3 str. Ogryns have 4 WS, 5 str, and 3 attacks (4 on the charge), but they don't have 2 CCW (like a Sergeant), thus leaving them with a great gun (The Ripper Gun).

No, this proposed unit is completely wrong for the game. It takes away what the actual Librarian is supposed to do and makes him better in every way for less than it should cost. If you never have a reason to take a regular librarian after you have access to this unit, then it's over-powered. Which it is, since I would never take a Librarian over this. If you had this in your list and offered to play a game with me, I would flat-out refuse, because you are breaking the game with them. let me take my Ogryns with power weapons, and then I'll play, sure - then it's just a race of who can get more broken crap on the field. If I wanted that, I'd play the BlazBlue video game.

TheRedArmy wrote:This is dangerous territory. You can justify it with point, but 140 points librarian with captain stats + iron halo is not equal - mainly because the librarian wasn't designed to function in that way. It is giving the Librarian more powers and more abilities than he should otherwise have. And no, Space Marines should not be better than the best race at something, EVER. Eldrad and the Eldar are the best psykers in the galaxy. Space Marines should not be better. If they are, it's broken. SM are the best at having a shot at doing everything well, but not the best.

I will reference something from the "Dungeon Master's Guide" here too. This Librarian is something everyone loves - implying that they would always take it, had they the option, except in lists where he does not do as well as other HQs (probably not many), and even then he might be taken as a second HQ. In D&D, the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) always makes a point that "If a spell (or ability) is so good that someone will always take it, then it's probably underpriced or overpowered."

This seems to be going along the same lines. He has RIDICULOUS spells, great survivability and wonderful stats for his points. Librarians, of any type, don't need Halo because they are not meant to survive an onslaught, they're meant to dish an onslaught, and that's all. It's why MegaNobs have SaP but no heavy weapons. The SnP is not meant to be a benefit, but a cost. It's why Ogryns are way overpriced, because Guard is not meant to have great assault.

Hey, can I give all my Ogryns power weapons for 10pts apiece? Sergeants can take them for 10, so as long as the cost is the same, it's fair, right? Right?

Wrong. Ogryns are never supposed to have a capability to bust through armor, so they have no options for it. To give them that benefit for 10pts is a gross underpricing. 10 is fine for a Sergeant because a Sergeant has 3 attacks (4 on the charge), 3 WS and 3 str. Ogryns have 4 WS, 5 str, and 3 attacks (4 on the charge), but they don't have 2 CCW (like a Sergeant).

No, this proposed unit is completely wrong for the game. It takes away what the actual Librarian is supposed to do and makes him better in every way for less than it should cost. If you never have a reason to take a regular librarian after you have access to this unit, then it's over-powered. Which it is, since I would never take a Librarian over this. If you had this in your list and offered to play a game with me, I would flat-out refuse, because you are breaking the game with them. let me take my Ogryns with power weapons, and then I'll play, sure - then it's just a race of who can get more broken crap on the field. If I wanted that, I'd play the BlazBlue video game.

Equal stats with a captain! DUDE!
WRONG!

Asherian Command wrote:
Equal stats with a captain! DUDE!
WRONG!

(sigh) Fine. Slightly inferior stats to a Captain for a unit where the stats don't matter in WS or BS, since he's a Psyker anyway. I don't know Marines all that well - no plays in our group with them.

All of the above, is of course, in my personal opinion. Me and my group are very cautious about changing or adding units to the game for this reason. It's WAY too easy to make it an arms race.

I can see it as a personal opinion its just Chief Libbys are the best pysker in the entire chapter. And plus what idiot would rush this guy into combat quickly? Plus he doesn't strike that fast thats the problem I find with him. That and all pyskers have problems vs certain units. And also the iron halo is to mark his rank.

Asherian Command wrote:I can see it as a personal opinion its just Chief Libbys are the best pysker in the entire chapter. And plus what idiot would rush this guy into combat quickly? Plus he doesn't strike that fast thats the problem I find with him. That and all pyskers have problems vs certain units. And also the iron halo is to mark his rank.

You can fluff it all you want. With a Bike he can only be ID'ed by str 10, has a 3+ armor, AND a 4+ invul, can move around anywhere he wants and drop death at his leisure.

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

I'll make it a specific thing. And i will remove a certian stuff from him like the bike ability.
I overlooked that. Thanks for pointing that out. But I will ensure he will only ever be allowed in a 2,000 point game and he may not have a bike. EVER.

Asherian Command wrote:I'll make it a specific thing. And i will remove a certian stuff from him like the bike ability.
I overlooked that. Thanks for pointing that out. But I will ensure he will only ever be allowed in a 2,000 point game and he may not have a bike. EVER.

If it's only limited to 2,000, it's better but still not good. The point is to have him balanced at whatever number of points he happens to get thrown into. The Special characters with minimum point games are obsolete (no 5th edition codex has it, to my knowledge), and the key point is game balance. When looking at SM HQs, do you wonder about which one to take for an army? Concern yourself with how they differ, the option between them? I know I have before (never played a game, but made a few lists). Do I want a Chapter Master for the middle ground "safe" choice, a Captain for utility at a low points cost, a unique character for awesome capabilities? It's a tough call at times. That's how you know it's balanced.

Maybe Marines players can chime in. Would you struggle between this unit and the normal choices? If so, he's probably OK. If you always choose him, he is overpowered. If you never choose him, he is underpowered.

Simple as that.

Let me say that I appreciate what you're trying to do. I like adding variety and new things. But you have to make the balance of the game first and foremost.

After fun, of course.

Actually I was going to get rid of the Independent Character Ability in that he cannot join any-other squad.

TheRedArmy wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I can see it as a personal opinion its just Chief Libbys are the best pysker in the entire chapter. And plus what idiot would rush this guy into combat quickly? Plus he doesn't strike that fast thats the problem I find with him. That and all pyskers have problems vs certain units. And also the iron halo is to mark his rank.

You can fluff it all you want. With a Bike he can only be ID'ed by str 10, has a 3+ armor, AND a 4+ invul, can move around anywhere he wants and drop death at his leisure.

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

I most certainly agree with the bold part, something I learned from D&D as well. Though, as a side note, Str 8 still ID's him on a bike, as his T would be 4(5).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:Actually I was going to get rid of the Independent Character Ability in that he cannot join any-other squad.

That certainly makes him no longer a no-brainer if you do that.

Scratch that, missed his retinue of psyker meat shields, still debatable then.

Hah, I just posted my ideas for special characters, including Chief Librarians. totally didn't see this until I went to go check for responses on mine. Good stuff.

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

That doesn't make any sense.

In Blood Angels codex a Librarian is better than a Captain so I take the Librarian.

This makes the Librarian overpowered?

Or how about comparing a Wolf Lord to Ragnar. I take a more expensive character that can do more and is more effective and therefore that makes him overpowered?

grayspark wrote:

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

That doesn't make any sense.

In Blood Angels codex a Librarian is better than a Captain so I take the Librarian.

This makes the Librarian overpowered?

Or how about comparing a Wolf Lord to Ragnar. I take a more expensive character that can do more and is more effective and therefore that makes him overpowered?

The point he's making is that when there's effectively no choice to be made, and the default answer is obvious, then something is either too good of a choice or too poor of a choice, and when you're introducing an outside element it will always be the former as you need to maintain internal consistency.

your "biker chief libby is wrong" point- i fail to see the problem. Your list of "broken" things it can do are:
T5
3+ Sv
4+ Inv
12" movement
"drop death at leisure"
but:
the captain has all those things apart from the powers- which IMHO is made up by the fact that he has better WS, BS and options.
The point of the chief librarian is to be able to field a fluffly-sound better psyker.
He has an iron halo- what sane chapter wants it's most potent psyker to be easily killed by a PF?
He CAN have an upgraded force weapon- based on the GK NFWs- if there are relic power weapons, surely there are a few relic force weapons? and since captains can replace a 15-point PW with a
2-handed S6 version for 15 more points, I thought it would be OK to replace a 0-point FW with a 2-handed S6 version for 30.
He knows and can know and use more powers- if the chief is better than regular libbies, he should know and have more control over his powers.
It isn't all that obvious to field him in EVERY game- a chief libby with bike, plasma pistol, artificier armour, master psyker and relic force weapon would be 275 points. that's quite expensive for a game below 2,000 points.

I would have thought 2 attacks