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Definitely give the bright lance ap1 and make it worth 20 pts and I'm fine.

It's worth more than 20 points now, at least according to the mathematical model set forth in Codex Space Marines (which may as well be the bar for everything pointswise). 25 for BS 3, one weapon units. More for multi-weapon units like War Walkers and Hornets.

It would be worth much more at AP 1.

Not on a guardian squad. Maybe more for people who can take it in droves.

A weapon like Bright Lance actually loses in value if you spam them in a single squad since a LOT of shots will be wasted. 6 Bright Lances in a War Walker squad is a bit of over kill (much like how more than 5 Fire Dragons are over kill). The question is how much you're willing to pay for reliability.

Regardless, the foundation for the suggestion of severely discounting heavy weapons for Guardians was that Guardians would never be in a suitable place on their own, and as such their high price (which is something desirable for Eldar) would be returned in cheap platforms.

Side-stepping: Btw, what if Shuriken Catapults were Assault 3? Dire Avengers would keep their range advantage, only Guardians would be more killy at short range. (Naturally, Blade Storm would lose it's significance and Dire Avengers would need to be increased in cost)

Back again: I still desire an upgrade to vehicle's defensive weapons. The twin-linked pea-shooter isn't cutting it, and once troops are on the ground a large amount of defensive weapons is nearly necessary (although you could argue that's when you dislodge troops from the hold).

Yeirls should be eternal

rivers64 wrote:Not on a guardian squad. Maybe more for people who can take it in droves.

Probably a good time to explain we were assuming a change to allow guardians to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians (dont know if I put that in the original post).

With the ability to take more weapons per squad they would become a reasonable investment just for sitting back and sniping.

I'm not sure about points but if were saying the Shuricannon comes free what would you think about:

Brightlance - Range 38" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Lance
Pulse Laser - Range 38" S8 AP2 Heavy 2
Scatter Laser - Range 32" S6 AP6 Heavy 4
Shuriken Cannon- Range 32" S4 AP5 Heavy 6
Star Cannon - Range 32" S6 AP2 Heavy 3

I'm not sure I agree with your suggestions for Wraithguard. You already have a T6 unit with a Warlock, which has a gun that wounds on 2s against *anything* and inflicts ID on a 6, and you want to give them power weapons AND immunity to poison as well? Unless these models rocket to 45-50 points each I doubt very much I'd be happy with them getting such a buff.

I think a very simple alteration would be to give each model another wound each, to further represent their sturdiness, and maybe, MAYBE another attack to better come out on top in an assault (although this does go against the grain as to what the unit is designed to do IMO).

L. Wrex

Constructs like wraithguard and wraithlord to me can stay brittle. Yes tough but if a weakness is found they just fail to work. I like FNP for a bit more resiliency. If you don't bring power weapons, FNP T6 S5 wraithguard will be a break-even choice at best to get in HTH. OTOH they are still not an eldar terminator as they get owned by TH and PF armed units.

Wraithlord, if also given FNP, are more resilient but still can be taken down by Las and melta fire. My problem with them is the lack of punch in HTH. I would like to see a change on the sword so that it grants an additional attack and the baseline of attacks goes to 3. So if you outfit a wraithlord with a sword it will be packing 4 attacks.

Gorechild wrote:
Probably a good time to explain we were assuming a change to allow guardians to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians (dont know if I put that in the original post).

Well, that's a terrible idea. Eldar should never be encouraged to be a horde army. Heck, Guardians should be limited to 10 in a squad at most.

Gorechild wrote:
Scatter Laser - Range 32" S6 AP6 Heavy 4
Star Cannon - Range 32" S6 AP2 Heavy 3

This can't be allowed to happen. This problem has been plaguing Eldar since they got a codex in 3rd. Multiple str 6 weapons with different AP is bad design.

It isn't so much encouraging manifold amount of Guardians so much as making having varying amount of Guardians have impact. At the moment I haven't seen a single tactics page actually mention using Guardians (only as an unlocker for a *single* heavy weapon). Tying the number of heavy weapons you get per squad to the number of Guardians you have leaves you with more of a choice, the max number of Guardian models isn't set in stone and it is indeed healthy to decrease the max number to 10 (i.e. 2 heavy weapons) if you allow more heavy weapons.

Multiple S6 weapons isn't bad design if there's a difference between them. For instance, the practical difference between current Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser is less than the current OR proposed Scatter Laser and Star Cannon. Ap2/3 versus Ap4+ is a world of difference.
If anything, it's the Shuriken Cannon that needs changing in order to break the multi-S6 options.

However, having Star Cannon at Heavy 3 with Scatter Laser Ap6 at Heavy 4 is bad design from a completely different reason (I'm ignoring to-wound and to-hit rolls):
Star Cannon (3) against IG: 3 unsaved wounds.
Scatter Laser (4) against IG: 2.3 unsaved wounds.
Even if the Scatter Laser is significantly less expensive, the Scatter Laser against non-vehicles have a significantly harder time "earning it's money back" on the simple basis that they're mounted on a unit that's more expensive than a Star Cannon. Star Cannon will simply move up as the obvious choice.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
Probably a good time to explain we were assuming a change to allow guardians to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians (dont know if I put that in the original post).

Well, that's a terrible idea. Eldar should never be encouraged to be a horde army. Heck, Guardians should be limited to 10 in a squad at most.

Well if you care to read the article then you'll realise we were saying to lower the squad size. If your going to pull apart everything without even reading what were talking about then there isn't much point. In the last thread we talked for pages about ways to discourage huge horde armies (and in the article and my first post), Your mistaken if you think I'm wanting to turn the "dying race" into a horde army...thats just dumb.

Although in all fairness, the suggestion to simply dump the price of Guardians was raised, and it is a valid one - provided GW retcons some lore to achieve it.

Given you also lower the maximum squad size. Otherwise, at 5-6 points per model you could get 120 guardians for 600 points. Otherwise its so un-fluffy it hurts.

@Darkness Eternal
The suggestion before was to limit guardian squads to 10 or maybe 15.

I also agree that everything at S6 is bad. My suggestion
from before was an attempt to separate them.

Lower the strength of scatterlaser and starcannon but leave their AP the same and raise both their ROF. By having a strength less than 6 they become troop killers and defensive weapons but lose their AT capability.

As it stands today, you might as well eliminate starcannons and shuriken cannons as there is very little reason to take them when the scatterlaser provides you the best ROF and good range for the cost.


Leave the shuriken cannon as S6 AP4? ROF3 and add rending. It is the base. It is the shortest range. Finally it is based on the core shruriken technology.

This puts: Bright Lance, Pulse lasers as the true AT weapons.

Scatterlaser and starcannon are infantry killers.

EML and Shuriken cannon are left as the multi-purpose weapons and each offers different benefits.

Gorechild wrote:Given you also lower the maximum squad size. Otherwise, at 5-6 points per model you could get 120 guardians for 600 points. Otherwise its so un-fluffy it hurts.

There is also the suggestion of using Guardians as auxiliaries. I.e. minimum squads with limited equipment options (it's Eldar, they already have minimum equipment options). It could work, but the question is how it'd handle and if it would make sense.

How bout for guardians making them 10-15 per squad and if you take a maxed squad you may take two heavy weapons, otherwise 1. Also I really like the idea of str 7 starcannons but rof 2 still. For wraithguard give them an invulnerable save of 5++, immunity to poison, and 18" range.

rivers64 wrote:How bout for guardians making them 10-15 per squad and if you take a maxed squad you may take two heavy weapons, otherwise 1. Also I really like the idea of str 7 starcannons but rof 2 still. For wraithguard give them an invulnerable save of 5++, immunity to poison, and 18" range.

Okay, we were initially thinking guardians would be purchased as 5 guardians with a Warlock and Shuriken cannon platform for say 70 points, then allowing 5 more guardians to be added for 8 points each and add another heavy weapon platform for every 5 guardians in the squad for X points. We also suggested that a squad with a HWP coudn't be transported in a vehicle. That would make a foot slogging squad somewhere around 125 points depending on warlock powers and heavy weapon options.

DAaddict wrote:
I also agree that everything at S6 is bad. My suggestion from before was an attempt to separate them.

Lower the strength of scatterlaser and starcannon but leave their AP the same and raise both their ROF. By having a strength less than 6 they become troop killers and defensive weapons but lose their AT capability.

I'd suggest that if we are going that way, it would make more sence to lower the strength of the shuriken cannon. As they are the main underslung heavy weapon it would allow them to be used as defensive weapons. You could then keep all shuriken weapons (pistol, catapult, avenger catapult, cannon) as S4 and just change the ROF and give the cannon rending.

Gorechild wrote:
I'd suggest that if we are going that way, it would make more sence to lower the strength of the shuriken cannon. As they are the main underslung heavy weapon it would allow them to be used as defensive weapons. You could then keep all shuriken weapons (pistol, catapult, avenger catapult, cannon) as S4 and just change the ROF and give the cannon rending.

If there is an aversion to all S6. I could handle the Shuriken Cannon as a defensive weapon but I like it outclassing shuriken catapults.
Likewise the scatterlaser needs to fit in the eldar pantheon of las weapons. My preferred "fix" for the nerfing of weapons fire from vehicles is to bring back
the venerable Crystal Targetting Matrix with it's effect being a second weapon of any class can fire as long as one weapon can fire.


So Shuriken Catapult base S4 R18" A2 as suggested Rending.
Shuriken Cannon R24" seems good but I don't want it to just turn into a gatling catapult with S4 Rof +++ So I am still leaning on S6 A3.

Las tech: Lasblaster S3 24" A2. Scatterlaser S? 36" A? Pulse Laser S8 36" A2. This- fluffwise - has always seemed to be geared at anti-personnel work so - for me -
S4 or 5 makes sense then looking at the model with 6 barrels give it a descent ROF for 4 to 6. (Lower S, Higher ROF) To gear it more for anti-personnel and avoid being a mass-ROF catapult, I would lean to S5 and a ROF of 4 or 5 to avoid becoming just a 3-in-1 shuriken catapult.

Taking the Dark Eldar vehicle weapon as an guide, I would like to see the plasma-tech starcannon not be an all-purpose weapon rather become a bane to Space Marines but not an anti-tank weapon. So to me the S5 AP2 or 3 ROF 3 or 4.

Now while a shuriken cannon is not a bright lance it can perform as a stop-gap AT weapon with ROF 3 S6 and rending and still be a good anti-personnel weapon. The thing with the shuriken cannon is it is short ranged and not as focused as the other options. If scatterlasers become S5 ROF 4 or 5 they have better range and put down more fire so GEQ will not like them. Likewise for MEQ killing a starcannon is the best but in a pinch a shuriken cannon can hold it's own and it also rends.

Pulse Laser ROF versus Bright Lance getting the Lance rule makes for your best AT because of Strength but do come at a cost. Meanwhile if you want better tank-killing power but want some infantry protection, the EML is probably the best general purpose weapon.

Do something where the shuriken cannon becomes the Jack-of-All-Trades choice but there are better options if you have a specific job in mind. If we modify scatterlasers and starcannons as above I like that the shuriken cannon stays S6 and is just a tad better than the other two at AT work but it is not anywhere in the
league of pulse lasers, bright lances or EML as a dependable heavy AT weapon.

Mahtamori wrote:Although in all fairness, the suggestion to simply dump the price of Guardians was raised, and it is a valid one - provided GW retcons some lore to achieve it.

It could be made similar to high elves and GW say that all eldar citizens are trained thouroughly in the art of war, as they are a dying race and need all the numbers they can get. Those better with a gun become guardian defenders and those better in melee become storm guardians. As a result both could get a boost. E.g. higher BS for guardian defenders and furious charge for storm guardians.

Eldar Own wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Although in all fairness, the suggestion to simply dump the price of Guardians was raised, and it is a valid one - provided GW retcons some lore to achieve it.

It could be made similar to high elves and GW say that all eldar citizens are trained thouroughly in the art of war, as they are a dying race and need all the numbers they can get. Those better with a gun become guardian defenders and those better in melee become storm guardians. As a result both could get a boost. E.g. higher BS for guardian defenders and furious charge for storm guardians.

I'm actually a fan of Eldar Guardian horde armies.

It fits from a fluff perspective if you assume they're more dying than typically thought. Just imagine that the population is so bad off that Aspect Warriors aren't in high enough quantities to field an army. So, Eldar have to rely on their last line of defense: The simple peasant. It's not what they'd like to do, but it's that's their only remaining option.

Everything S6 is bad, but reducing scatter lasers and starcannons S value isn't the answer. We need to improve eldar ranged AT, not neuter it.

How about:

Shuriken Cannon: S6 Ap4 R24" Heavy 3, Defensive
Scatter Laser: S6 Ap6 R36" Heavy 4
Starcannon: S6 Ap2 R24" Heavy 3
or
Starcannon: S7 Ap2 R36 Heavy 2 (this is an anti-MC, anti-tank weapon - the heavy 3 version above is an anti meq/teq weapon)
Pulse Laser: S8 Ap2 R48 Heavy 2
Brightlance: S9 Ap2 R36 Heavy, 1 Lance

Summarized: If its a tank and you want some S6 fire, its shuriken cannons. If its not a tank and you want some S6 supporting fire, its scatter lasers. (I like S7 starcannons) if you want some transport/anti AV10/11/anti MC fire, its a starcannon. If its anti AV11/12, its a pulse laser, and if you need to kill an AV13+ target, its a brightlance.

Wraithguard: They are overpriced now. Their weapons get a round of shooting, if that. Their role is to take a charge and wait to be rescued (hey, it works well, I only play wraithguard). For a 400pt unit, they need to do more. Their resilience is ok. I think giving them an invuln is a bad plan, as it makes them stupidly tough. They shouldn't be able to just go toe-to-toe with thunderhammers and not worry about it - neither should wraithlords.

Wraithguard: WS/BS 4, S6 T6, W2 I3 A2 Ld10 3+
Wraithlord: WS/BS4 S10 T8 W4 I2 A3 Ld10 2+

Wraithbone Construct: The unit is composed entirely of animated wraithbone, turning aside all but the sharpest claws and most powerful weapons. Weapons which wound on a fixed value wound on a 6+ instead of their normal value.

Fearless

Wraithcannon: SX Ap2 R18 Assault 1 - always wounds on a 2, glance 2+, pen 5+
Wraithsword: 1 gives rerolls, 2 give +1 A, rerolls.
Flamers on WLs are heavy flamers.

2+ armor on wraithlords makes them much much much more resilient to missle fire, but no more resilient to rending, lascannons, or plasma.

immunity to poison simply establishes them back to where they were pre-tyranid and DE codex - if you want to kill them easily, you'll need heavy weapons or heavy CC units.

I strongly believe the units will not be viable in the next codex unless they are immune to poison.

CCwise, the CC/flamer lord gets a big buff, going from 2 A base with rerolls, to 4A base with rerolls (if you buy two swords) and heavy flamers besides. The wraithguard get a bump to S6, making them able to choke out multiwound T3 models (i can't think of a single time in all of my games this would have mattered), and getting an extra attack. This makes them better at getting out of tarpits vs T4 and T3 generic units, but will have essentially no effect in combats in which they would die anyway (because they are only I3. I don't think anyone is going to be shivering in their boots over 20 S6 attacks. They are not powerweapons, terminators will laugh at them (as will genestealers, tyranid MCs, and pretty much anyone else except for a marine tac squad).

Things I feel should be avoided at all costs:
giving wraithlord or wraithguard invulnerables of ANY kind (exception if an HQ wraithlord appears)
giving wraithguard power weapons
giving wraithguard or wraithlords FNP (FNP is denied by any weapon which denies armor saves, which is 95% of all the weapons wraithguard and wraithlords care about anyway. FNP is an upgrade to wraithunits which confers essentially no benefit but we'll have to pay for. please, no FNP)

Things that will be fun to look at:
giving wraithlords access to the pulse laser (maybe 2x pulse lasers?)
giving wraithlords access to support weapons (D-cannon!!!!)
variant wraithguard - exchange wriathcannons for executioners, conferring +2 S and power weapons status to attacks (combine this with enhance and i believe thats a WS5 S8 I4 statline. Could be interesting to see these make an appearance (still no invulnerable save!).

At this point, I don't feel Brightlances can be changed thanks to Dark Eldar. Str 8 AP 2 is what they are.

by that metric, anything with a mirror in DE will never, ever change.

Hey guys, just a bit input on the summary...

First of, I'm willing to bet the Farseer will have 2 wounds in the next codex. Just getting that out there...

And about heavy weapons...

I'm firmly in the "enough S6 weapons already!" camp. Starcannons need to be S7. S6 is NOT a reliable way to kill AV10/11. It is a reliable way to kill basic infantry.

So I'll reiterate what others have already said:

Brightlance: S8 AP1 R36" RoF1, Lance
Pulse laser: S8 AP2 R48" RoF2
Starcannon: S7 AP2 R36" RoF2
Scatterlasers: S6 AP6 R36" RoF4
Shuriken cannon: S6 AP5 R24" RoF3 Rending

EML is fine as is. Rending on shuriken cannons give us our own version of the assault cannon.

Pulse lasers should stay on Falcons alone, otherwise I see no point of having a starcannon at all. Also, imagine a Falcon with Pulse laser + Star cannon + underslung shuriken cannon...that's pretty immense for transport popping. Then it'd actually be worth the premium points we're paying for this battle tank.

DarknessEternal...if that IS what they are, then they damn well must cost half their current cost, because they certainly aren't worth their current 30/45 TL cost.

And we would do well to agree on this first, you know. No way we can decide what we think should be done with the Defender Guardians if the heavy weapons aren't first agreed upon.

There's nothing wrong with large quantity of Guardians, what truly is wrong is that a dying race with the most advanced production capability of the known universe can't equip their soldiers decently. Granted, not all of the good stuff reflects in combat performance on the dice system - I bet Eldar armour doesn't chafe as much as IG flak armour.

Gwyidion wrote:by that metric, anything with a mirror in DE will never, ever change.

Harlequins show this to be true. The final proof whether it's for better or worse would depend on what happens to Shuriken Catapults, I guess, considering Splinter Rifles got significantly better.

Araenion wrote:Brightlance: S8 AP1 R36" RoF1
Pulse laser: S8 AP2 R48" RoF2
Starcannon: S7 AP2 R36" RoF2
Scatterlasers: S6 AP6 R36" RoF4
Shuriken cannon: S6 AP5 R24" RoF3 Rending

EML is fine as is. Rending on shuriken cannons give us our own version of the assault cannon.

With the exception of the Brightlance missing the Lance rule, They seem reasonable. I'd maybe like +1 shot and -1S on the scatter laser to help it stand out, it would then make the ultimate anti-horde gun. I think the most important issue now would be to sort out the point cost.

DarknessEternal...if that IS what they are, then they damn well must cost half their current cost, because they certainly aren't worth their current 30/45 TL cost.

Leaving them the same as DE will not change the fact that people will just use fire dragons instead of using a brightlance. The difference between having to spend maybe 2-3 turns shooting a brightance compaired to it being almost certain to destroy a landraider 1st time with dragons is a HUGE difference.

Haha, good catch there, I forgot to put the rule in. Personally, I'd rather have a shuriken cannon being S5 AP4 rending, if we must have a S5 heavy weapon and leave the Scatter as is. It is a nice weapon and there's no reason to fix what isn't broken or overpriced.

I'm still very excited over that idea of a Falcon with 2 S8, 2 S7 and 3 S6 rending shots...I think I'll give it a try in a friendly game against my friend. Together with the ability to shoot all turret weapons while moving 12" and Falcons are set to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the point cost...and I'm talking about my version of the heavy weapons, of course.

Assuming our vehicles are given BS4 and that's already added in their point cost then there's no need to accomodate for it in the heavy weapons cost...

AP1 Brightlances 25 points.
EML 20 points
S7 Starcannons 15 points
Scatterlasers 15 points
Rending Shuriken cannons 10 points

Sounds balanced?

Beautiful. Also pulse lasers should be 35 pts

Pulse Lasers should really stay Falcons-only...I would never take EML if pulse lasers were available for Serpents and starcannons would be completely redundant.

Same thing with prism cannons. While it'd be cool to have Wraithlords carry those around, I'd rather they stay on Fire Prisms alone.

I don't thing a pulse laser having 1 extra shot, loosing Lance and having 1 worse AP warrants an 10 point increase over a brightlance I'd keep it the same point cost as a BL.

Lets look at it at Araenion's suggestion in context (using out previous suggestions):

Compairing them to DE seems most logical (similar stats, very recently updated so point comparisons would be fair) so here we go...

5 guardians + warlock and shuriken cannon - 90 points
4x12" S4 AP5 Assault 2 shots. 1x24" S6 AP5 Heavy 3 Rending shot. Fleet

VS

10 Kabalite Warriors - 90 points
10x4+ poison 24" Rapid fire weapons, Fleet, Power from Pain

Pros for DE:
4 more models
+1 WS and BS
Access to FNP, Furious Charge and Fearless
All their shots wound on a 4+
24" range.

Pros for Guardians:
2 heavy weapons
Higher Ld from warlock
Assault weapons
Warlock has Inv
Warlock wounds on 2+ in CC



Does that seem fair in your view? To me the DE seem far better, which may suggest something is wrong.