land raider achilles poll

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**AlexHolker**

Costing more points is not the solution - the problem is that an enemy that is completely immune to everything you can throw at it is not fun, no matter how expensive it is.

I've dropped an email to Forgeworld with my suggested fix: make the -1 modifier on damage tables only apply to penetrating hits. This way you don't have three different rules all to the effect of "Str 8 weapons and only Str 8 weapons are completely useless".

**Vaktathi**

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Well according to the fluff a land raider is supposed to be next to unkillable. Now we have a tank that lives up to the name. I'm for the anti-lance anti-melta rule. subtracting 1 from damage rolls seems like a bit much but I like the way they're thinking. For the biggest baddest tank space marines have, and as expensive as they are, land raiders ought to be tough to kill. In the current meta they're harder than normal to kill but not really a challenge to an opponent who builds with land raiders in mind. That being said its offensive capabilities seem underwhelming to me. Armor 14 and all those special rules are great defensively but the best defense is still to kill them before they kill you, and there are definitely killier things you can do with your 300 points than buy a thunderfire cannon and two twin linked melta guns. I like that the multi meltas short range dovetail with the land raider's assault vehicle rule.

I think Forge World has the right idea here but the price needs to come down 50 points before I'd call it a great tank. As it stands I'd say its ok, maybe even good, but not great or overpowered. AF

Land Raiders already *are* hard to kill, the hardest amongst the Imperium's vast arsenal and of anything *but* Necron Monoliths. What on earth justifies it needing to be harder than that?

**Grey Templar**

i think it's a fair priced model.

i would get one if i could afford it

i wish it had Lascannons instead of the MMs. that would fit in better with the Fists and wouldn't clash with the TFC.

**H.B.M.C.**

It's a tougher Land Raider with mis-matched guns (both from a role, power and range perspective), a pathetic troop capacity and no assault ramp. And it costs three-hundred points.

I'm not going to go and say that it's "underpowered", but it is horribly confused for such a big price tag. Toughness isn't the be all and end all of pricing.

**solkan**

It's a monetarily expensive plastic-and-resin shoe box tank released coincidentally with the Dark Eldar release that happens to be harder than usual to kill and under priced in points for its weapons and rules.

Sorry, it's just another entry in the "And that's why you don't get to use Forge World rules" list.

**Kanluwen**

I agree with you on the confused part, to an extent.

It should only be able to be fielded in Cities of Death games, in my opinion. It has the, for lack of a better word, "feel" of the German "Stugs" or the Sturmtigers. A linebreaking vehicle that, in a pinch, can double as a self-propelled gun.

**Mukkin'About**

I think it's a sweet model looks plenty dakka. Points cost seems about right. seems perfect for a 5 man assault/vanguard with a SC, Chap, or Libby. You're gonna have a damn hard time wrecking their ride

Overpowered? nah, you just have to know how to bust it's chops. which is not that hard if you know what you're doing
Seems like another FW tank to me. crazy good, but you're never gonna see it in a game cuz all your mates are cheap.
You'll never get to use it a tournament either so what's the fuss?

**Dracos**

I put overpowered. I'm sorry, but a tank with TL multimeltas that is basically invulnerable and can move 12" and shoot the MM would crush many an opponent. There are too few answers to this unit, and its TL MM + invulnerability means it is almost guaranteed to take out a vehicle per turn. The sheer board control offered by this thing is leaps beyond a normal LR.

Something that might fix it is to get rid of the -1 to damage table rolls, and just make it ignore the bonus for AP1 instead.

**AlexHolker**

Dracos wrote:Something that might fix it is to get rid of the -1 to damage table rolls, and just make it ignore the bonus for AP1 instead.

The weapons that need the most help are the ones that are most reliant on glances: the ones that have already been nerfed by the other two components of the Ferromantic Invulnerability rule. Buffing lascannons and leaving meltas as-is makes no sense.

**BuFFo**

Unless it is a physical codex entry, I will refuse to play it, as I have denied plenty of FW units in the past that just have broke rules.

Make the Marine army that is fielding this phase out at 25% infantry models and then we'll talk.

More marine junk from GW... There are Xenos armies in this game for what, again?

**Vaktathi**

BuFFo wrote:Unless it is a physical codex entry, I will refuse to play it, as I have denied plenty of FW units in the past that just have broke rules.

While I can understand the feeling against this particular unit, this attitude just doesn't seem very fun or constructive, especially given how often GW simply nabs FW units, makes them way better, and shoves them in codex's (look at the Hydra, Pirhana, Valkyrie, Medusa, Sky Ray, Nightspinner, etc), and how most FW units are rather mediocre. Aside from a couple more recent SM units, you'll almost always find codex stuff to be as good or better than anything FW provides.

**Fafnir**

In a vacuum, yes, it's overpowered, but HMBC's explained well enough why it won't actually do well when you consider an entire army.

It's definetly a powerhouse. But it tries to do so much well that short of staying alive, it doesn't really do very much at all.

A regular LR or LRC would be way more bang for your buck. Sure, it's easier to pop, but you actually get some utility with it.

**Vaktathi**

Fafnir wrote:
It's definetly a powerhouse. But it tries to do so much well that short of staying alive, it doesn't really do very much at all.

Often, staying alive is more valuable than anything else. If it's got a scoring unit in it, you can force most opponents to at best play for a draw in Capture and Control, put real stress on in Seize Ground, and probably deny an opponent up to 3 KP's in Annihilation (achilles, 5man squad, attached IC). That and its firepower isn't exactly meek.

**Zweischneid**

Kanluwen wrote:I agree with you on the confused part, to an extent.

Well, from a designers' point of view, I think what you call "confused" is an excellent design choice. The classic Godhammer is IMO a well designed vehicle, precisely because it can fill several, potentially contradicting roles and you'll need to make some tough decisions to make it worthwhile. The LRC is IMO a rather badly designed vehicle, precisely because its such a no-brainer to use.

Thunderfire-cannon, lots of Melta's, no Assault Ramp without that stupid Ferro-rule at a regular LR-price tag. That combination would IMO make an excellent Landraider in the Godhammer tradition. It would be something I'd love to tinker and play with to make it work. But that idiotic Invulnerability rule kills it fo rme. Not because its over/underpowered, but because it takes the brains out of the game. There's no need to make decisions, no consequence for doing something stupid. It's just a brick of heavily skewed statistics that makes game-choices by either player irrelevant.

**Phototoxin**

Would be fluffy in a salamanders list (the immune to melta) which they got before IIRC. However unless it transports 6 terminators it's a bit naff. Additionally if you put a siege sheild on it how are you going to exit from the front - that is assuming you even can in the first instance?

**Boss 'eadbreaka**

I chose 'don't care', because hey, I don't.

**Ouze**

solkan wrote:Sorry, it's just another entry in the "And that's why you don't get to use Forge World rules" list.

To me, this is the real problem - it's going to be so un-fun to play against, I'm going to have a hard time playing my less-broken Forge World stuff.

**rivers64**

I play Eldar, and if my opponent fields one of these then I am screwed.

I know people are saying that one could just ignore it and go for other stuff, but a tank that is seriously immune to an entire army is just not fair.

**Avatar 720**

The only things I can see taking it down are massed Lascannons or xeno army equiv, strong ordanance (for the 2D6, pick the highest) or MCs. Dreadnoughts and CC walkers won't be able to get near it without being multi-melta'd, opposing transports carrying assault terminators will likewise be multi-melta'd or taken out early by the rest of your army, and the Tremor shot from the TFC will deny them the ability to even footslog at it.

MCs are usually tough enough or gifted invulnerable saves, winged ones are best (I can see a winged Tzeentch Daemon prince being okay here, 4+ invul with Wind of Chaos, glancing on 4+s with the template to try and wear it down a bit before the charge, and Warptime for maximum hits), but even they might suffer a bit.

Tyranids might be able to crack it open (MC spam), as might Eldar with multiple Wraithlords, but other armies will suffer, and suffer hard, especially if this thing just flanks your army and starts mulit-meltaing your Tanks left and right whilst being the best part of immune to return fire.

**Melissia**

Definitely OP for its price. Defensively OP, not offensively-- offensively it's fine.

**shrike**

Melissia wrote:Definitely OP for its price. Defensively OP, not offensively-- offensively it's fine.

well a regular LR is 250, so the MM are fair, replacing the lascannons, and a TFC (minus the teachmarine) is 50. so 300pts is fair- just get rid of the armour stuff. If you must, make it ignore melta (like a TH or castus) or something. It's just too hard.

**Melissia**

The ignore melta is exactly why it's such a problem.

**shrike**

so what do you recommend? Matching with the fluff, it needs to be harder than a regular LR, but not as hard as the current rules.

**Melissia**

The -1 to damage rolls is plenty by itself. That reduces a penetrating hit's chance to destroy it from 1/3rd to 1/6th. It also removes an AP1 glance's chance to destroy it entirely.

**shrike**

Melissia wrote:The -1 to damage rolls is plenty by itself. That reduces a penetrating hit's chance to destroy it from 1/3rd to 1/6th. It also removes an AP1 glance's chance to destroy it entirely.

yeah, and we've decided that's too good. Alternatives?

**Melissia**

No, I think that alone-- IE, no immunity to lance or melta-- is just fine.

**shrike**

Melissia wrote:No, I think that alone-- IE, no immunity to lance or melta-- is just fine.

ok- so same as normal, but no immunity to lance/melta? seems fair.

**BuFFo**

Vaktathi wrote:
BuFFo wrote:Unless it is a physical codex entry, I will refuse to play it, as I have denied plenty of FW units in the past that just have broke rules.
While I can understand the feeling against this particular unit, this attitude just doesn't seem very fun or constructive, especially given how often GW simply nabs FW units, makes them way better, and shoves them in codex's (look at the Hydra, Pirhana, Valkyrie, Medusa, Sky Ray, Nightspinner, etc), and how most FW units are rather mediocre. Aside from a couple more recent SM units, you'll almost always find codex stuff to be as good or better than anything FW provides.

GW shoves units into codices with the thought of army balance.

FW just makes units, damn be balance.

Suffice it to say, most of the FW stuff is fine, maybe even over priced, but that doesn't excuse stuff like this.

When I face a FW unit I deem will be fun to play against, I will, but not stuff like this, at all.

**Vaktathi**

BuFFo wrote:
GW shoves units into codices with the thought of army balance.

FW just makes units, damn be balance.

I have a hard time believing either of those, GW has been guilty far more often of putting broken stuff in armies than FW has.

Suffice it to say, most of the FW stuff is fine, maybe even over priced, but that doesn't excuse stuff like this.

I don't disagree there.

**shrike**

+1.
(but GW do make sure they don't put too badly broken units in there)