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I know I picked up and modded the DA robed Veterans for my BA army back in 3rd Edition. Looked pretty good.


One side note, your Tacticals why not make a little more like so:

If the squad include 10 models one marine can replace his boltgun with
- Flamer: free
- Plasma gun : 10 points
- Meltagun: 15 points
- Plasma Cannon : 20 points
If the squad include 10 models one marine can replace his boltgun with
- Plasma gun, Heavy bolter, Plasma cannon, missile launcher: free
- Multi-melta : 5 points
- Lascannon : 10 points

They're supposed to be masters with the plasma weapons and hand-crafting their own models making them superior. Wouldn't that mean they'd have more of them readily accessible and wouldn't they want to pick them over a multi-melta or another weapon?


As for the Fallen Angel...umm, wouldn't that be better suited to a Chaos Army list? I don't see him flip-flopping sides or seeing loyal DA's following a traitor. Although I do love his model.


I'm not keen on giving the "special ammunition" rule army wide, there's a reason why one unit has that rule (besides SM Captain/Chapter Master with a price) and why they're more expensive because of it. Isn't your Plasma mastery more then enough to not need special ammunition in addition to almost never overheating?

Not every unit has to be powerful, some of them can be a little normal. I understand tweaking the signature units, Deathwing/Ravenwing to make them more to the fluff and exciting to play, but you don't need to OP the other units to make them on-par with the Deathwing/Ravenwing. As that's the reason those models are special, is because they have made it to that level and had those honors/skills/abilities/weapons/wargear/vehicles bestowed upon them.

Not to mention you don't want to make your army list have the problems of other codex's where only a certain choice/unit selection is viable; because that one choice is so much better then anything else you could take in that slot.
(ie. Carnifex from last editions Tyranids Codex)

Just some thoughts.

Fexor wrote:I know I picked up and modded the DA robed Veterans for my BA army back in 3rd Edition. Looked pretty good.


One side note, your Tacticals why not make a little more like so:

If the squad include 10 models one marine can replace his boltgun with
- Flamer: free
- Plasma gun : 10 points
- Meltagun: 15 points
- Plasma Cannon : 20 points
If the squad include 10 models one marine can replace his boltgun with
- Plasma gun, Heavy bolter, Plasma cannon, missile launcher: free
- Multi-melta : 5 points
- Lascannon : 10 points

They're supposed to be masters with the plasma weapons and hand-crafting their own models making them superior. Wouldn't that mean they'd have more of them readily accessible and wouldn't they want to pick them over a multi-melta or another weapon?

I like this!

Fexor wrote:

Not every unit has to be powerful, some of them can be a little normal. I understand tweaking the signature units, Deathwing/Ravenwing to make them more to the fluff and exciting to play, but you don't need to OP the other units to make them on-par with the Deathwing/Ravenwing. As that's the reason those models are special, is because they have made it to that level and had those honors/skills/abilities/weapons/wargear/vehicles bestowed upon them.

Not to mention you don't want to make your army list have the problems of other codex's where only a certain choice/unit selection is viable; because that one choice is so much better then anything else you could take in that slot.
(ie. Carnifex from last editions Tyranids Codex)

Just some thoughts.

These two paragraphs are contradictory. You say to leave some units "normal" (not sure what that is supposed to mean really), and don't make all units powerful. But then you go on to say you should make sure one unit doesn't dominate where you "must" take it. Those seem counterintuitive to me. To avoid one unit being the only viable one, you should probably aim to make them all of a reasonable power level?
Further, the simple fact is, when dealing with the 4 unique chapters of Space Marines supported by GW (Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves) you need certain marquee units to set them apart from a standard codex space marine chapter. While you can say it is boring to see so many Rune Priests, Wolf Standards, Long Fangs and Thunderwolf Cavalry in a Space Wolves army, does that not also make it pretty fluffy as well, using very iconic Space Wolves equipment? Heck, the Black Templars Codex actually demands you start with the same unit in every army, the Emperor's Champion, with the same gear as every other Emperor's Champion. They become unique when you start seeing huge groups of Initiates with Neophytes, Cenobyte Servitors accompanying the Chaplains, etc. In the end it feels very different then an Ultramarines Chapter, and that is the point.

That being said, Dark Angels have a few unique traits, but they also need to stand apart from codex marines and the other 3, giving them unique units lets them do that and it makes them feel less like just another space marine army painted green.

If you took the current codex and just flipped some names around, and changed a few things as discussed, you would end up with:

Special Charaters
Azrael
Sammael
Belial
Ezekial
Asmodai

HQ
Company Master (instead of Captain)
Chaplain
Librarian
Master of the Forge (though maybe this is removed, not sure)
Command Squad (no Honor Guard)

Elite
Deathwing Terminator Squad (can be both Shooting or Assault or Both)
Fallen Hunting Veterans (Beefy Scout/Specialist unit w/Possible psychic powers)
Dreadnoughts (Regular/Venerable/Ironclad; maybe remove Ironclad and add close combat options to Venerable. Deathwing Dreadnought?)
Watchers in the Dark

Troops
Tactical (more Plasma)
Scouts

Fast Attack
Assault Squad
Ravenwing Attack Squad
Ravenwing Vanguard Squad
Ravenwing Support Squad

Heavy
Land Raider (Godhammer, Crusader, Redeemer. maybe add the Forge World Ares variant )
Vindicator
Predator
Whirlwind

Seems pretty close to normal. You make the Elite and Fast Attack slots better and change the roll of the troops slightly (more plasma heavy) you concede elite scouts to C:SM troop scouts.

Magister187 wrote:

Fexor wrote:

Not every unit has to be powerful, some of them can be a little normal. I understand tweaking the signature units, Deathwing/Ravenwing to make them more to the fluff and exciting to play, but you don't need to OP the other units to make them on-par with the Deathwing/Ravenwing. As that's the reason those models are special, is because they have made it to that level and had those honors/skills/abilities/weapons/wargear/vehicles bestowed upon them.

Not to mention you don't want to make your army list have the problems of other codex's where only a certain choice/unit selection is viable; because that one choice is so much better then anything else you could take in that slot.
(ie. Carnifex from last editions Tyranids Codex)

Just some thoughts.

These two paragraphs are contradictory. You say to leave some units "normal" (not sure what that is supposed to mean really), and don't make all units powerful. But then you go on to say you should make sure one unit doesn't dominate where you "must" take it. Those seem counterintuitive to me. To avoid one unit being the only viable one, you should probably aim to make them all of a reasonable power level?
Further, the simple fact is, when dealing with the 4 unique chapters of Space Marines supported by GW (Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves) you need certain marquee units to set them apart from a standard codex space marine chapter. While you can say it is boring to see so many Rune Priests, Wolf Standards, Long Fangs and Thunderwolf Cavalry in a Space Wolves army, does that not also make it pretty fluffy as well, using very iconic Space Wolves equipment? Heck, the Black Templars Codex actually demands you start with the same unit in every army, the Emperor's Champion, with the same gear as every other Emperor's Champion. They become unique when you start seeing huge groups of Initiates with Neophytes, Cenobyte Servitors accompanying the Chaplains, etc. In the end it feels very different then an Ultramarines Chapter, and that is the point.

That being said, Dark Angels have a few unique traits, but they also need to stand apart from codex marines and the other 3, giving them unique units lets them do that and it makes them feel less like just another space marine army painted green.

I was just merely trying to state, that aside from the special units "Deathwing/Ravenwing/IC's" that other units don't need to be "buffed" to be on at the same level as the characterizing army units, ie. Deathwing/Ravenwing/IC's. Additionally, I don't remember all the things about the DA but are their limits to the amount of units/squads you can have of the Deathwing/Ravenwing? If remember correctly, if you took one you couldn't incorporate the other or is that false? To many inconsistencies running in my head. >_< Anyone wish to clear them up for me?

By the way I'm not trying to de-rail or bring the thread down, just want to see a cool codex from my greener brethren is all.

Yeah, there isn't a restriction like that. In fact, the few still competitive armies from the DA codex use Ravenwing and Deathwing Elements together, as RW hae built in teleport homers and can get across the board in a hurry to let them DS in reliably.

I do see what you are saying though, and I agree. It's a matter of making the iconic units good enough to field but also not making them completely surplant all other units. For example, if DW terminators and RW Bike Squads were so good you automatically needed 2-3 of each in every army, it would probably have failed. I dunno, but yes, I would love to see a 5th ed codex for DA.

They're supposed to be masters with the plasma weapons and hand-crafting their own models making them superior. Wouldn't that mean they'd have more of them readily accessible and wouldn't they want to pick them over a multi-melta or another weapon?

My starting idea was to mak exactly this! But the I talked to other players and we came to the conclusion that the more same type weapon you can put in a squad, the more the squad is efficient so they must have a cost ( that's the reason for higher heavy weapon cost in devastators).
In addition I already added Plasma Mastery that makes plasmas more viable (and I wouldn't like to remove because it represents both the preference for plasma weaponry and th higher quality of DA technology)... so making plasma gun free would be a little OP and probably become a forced choice (2 plasmas that ignore gets hot on 4+ for 10 points??? that's AMAZING)

Anyway I'm trying to make a balanced codex. If you think something is OP do not hesitate telling me... The units I actually published seem fine to me cause the tactical squad is slightly more powerful than the C:SM one in the choices but I think this is balanced by the lack of truly powerful assault units (cept for assault termies but I can't eliminate them) . Ravenwing costs 5 points more per model and they aren't stubborn nor benefit from chapter tactics... they have cool abilities but you should use them wisely. Termies are only a little more points than usual because they have DW assault and some interesting choice, but fearless for a Ld9/10 stubborn unit is more a weakness than a strenght (and it's my will: fight to death at all costs isn't always a good tactic but DA are made this way!!)
The SC seems fine to me, because, even if they have strong themes (I hope) They're based upon other similar SC to be sure of their balance (Grimnar/old Azrael for Azrael and Carab Culln for Belial)

another thing.... what about this idea for non DW veterans:

Being admitted to the inner circle isn't easy and only few Dark Angels will ever reach this accomplishment in their career...
Before entering the Deathwing they must spend long time in Company Veteran Squads.... Groups of Dark angels committed to the destruction of the hardest of the enemies and to the hunt for the fallen... A senior member of the Deathwing will always watch over them, to judje their worthiness of entering in the inner circle...
Librarians are often the ones dedicated to this role, but company veterans often serves also as bodyguards for other important members pof the inner circle... Unaware of the fact that their masters are judging them in every moment...

What do you think about that? there is a fluff (not canon I know) justifying non DW veterans and the fact they are often attached to ICs...

Hey, it sounds good to me.

How about for the Watchers in the Dark

Cost 35 points each
Up to 5 Watchers can be selected as a single elite choice.
At the beginning of the game, select a single squad of infantry or jump infantry for each watcher to be attached to.

Stats
WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 1, T: 4, W: 1, I: 1, A: 0 Ld. 1 Sv. none

Special Rules
Ephemeral: Watchers do not seem to conform to the laws of physics. They occupy no space in transports and can never have wounds assigned to them. They move with the same movement profile as the rest of the unit. If no other members of unit remain, remove them from play. The unit is counted as destroyed.
Guilt Overcomes Fear: A unit with a watcher in it will not run from battle, and will fight with all the grim determination a son of the Lion has. The unit gains the Counterattack USR. In addition, if called upon to make a morale check the unit automatically makes the check.

I don't know about the cost, its hard to say. What about the rules? It overlaps a little bit with Space Wolves having Counterattack, but it feel like a good way to represent the determination of unforgiven, as does the auto passing of leadership tests (since they may Fearless so incredibly dangerous to have in CC). It draws on the fluff that the Watchers may be a manifestation of the guilt of the unforgiven, and seeing it there with them drives the unit to press even harder in the face of further dishonor.

i second the land raider Aries for includement into this as it is specifically Dark Angels, but not so much the forge world one but the actual GW on up on their site

Why not make Watchers in the Dark squad upgrades?

That way Dark Angels won't have to concede tons of killpoints for them or an Elite slot.

I will be busy with job for a while... Hope I can keep posting...
Anyway My army list Ideal is this:

HQ
Azrael
Belial
Ezekiel
Asmodai
Company master
Chaplain
Master of the forge

ELITE
Deathwing
Dreadnoughts
Deathwing Dreadnoughts
Veteran squads/ can take a librarian as upgrade.fluff above
Watchers
Librarians
Techmarines

TROOPS
Tactical squads
Scout squads/Naaman

FAST ATTACK

Assault squad
Ravenwing Squadrons
Ravenwing support
Ravenwing Veterans (still don't know how to make them)

HEAVY SUPPORTS

Devastator squads
Thunderfire cannons
Predator
Whirlwind
Vindicator
Land Raider variants

... This should be a good selection for a pretty fire-based Meq army...
Note that I willingly removed scout bikers... In DA they shouldn't exist... And kept scouts troops cause in the last dex fluff states that DA scouts heve the same role they have in other chapters

Using the proposal of Magister as a base I made this:

Cost 40 points each
Up to 5 Watchers can be selected as a single elite choice.
At the beginning of the game, select a single squad of infantry or jump infantry for each watcher to be attached to.

Stats
WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 1, T: 4, W: 1, I: 1, A: 0 Ld. 1 Sv. none

Special Rules
Ephemeral:
Watchers do not seem to conform to the laws of physics. They occupy no space in transports and can never have wounds assigned to them. They move with the same movement profile as the rest of the unit. If no other members of unit remain, remove them from play. The unit is counted as destroyed.
Aura of darkness:
The unit the watcher is attached to gain +1 to his cover save. If the unit is not in cover, it gains a 5+ cover save
Whispering your guilt:
A Watcher is a psyker. he automatically pass any psychic test, but it's still subject to other effects such as a psychic hood. He can cast one of his power at the start of eache turn before any otheraction (So it must be already on the table to cast his powers)
- inspiration of the dark ones:
The unit the watcher is with MUST repeat any failed morale or pinning test but can't go to ground voluntarily
-Steady as the Lion:
The unit the watcher is with gain the slow and purposeful USR for this turn but can't assault
-Fury of the unyelding spirits:
The unit the watcher is with gain the counter-attack special rule until your next turn but cannot move.



This watcher is undoubtely more powerful in this incarnation so I made it more expensive... tell me about it (especially about cover save.. It's something I really want to keep to give DA more resistance against enemy fire even in open ground but I don't know if this balanced... anyway It doesn't look more powerful than a BA sang priest).
The fact that abilities should be used only if you are already on the table is to avoid this nice build:
-I drop pod 10 devasttors with 4 plasma cannons that gets hot less than usually and can shoot when they disembark:
You're dead!

I'll wait feedback before adding this to the army list coz I'm not so sure about this.

DEATHWING - If you're going to give them a plasma option I think combi-weapons would be a better way of incorporating them!

No geordie... I really would like to keep a plasma special weapon in the DW... it's more fluffy... do you think there's something unbalanced in the two plasam choices? (plasma cannon and twin-linked plasmagun)

Nice job.

Thanks very much.... In my littlle free time I'm designing the veterans... that's not simple... I would like to make something different from sterngurd with librarian... My idea is a unit with almost the same fire ouput as tactical squad but much more resilient... the opposite of sternguards ehehe!
for now i'm working on the idea proposed above of stealth marines, 2 attacks and the possibility of adding a libby!