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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Similar is loose at best, especially if the dex doesnt state it's a retinue considering dex>Brb it's like apples and bananas. Nothing is said to indicate the IC loses the IC rules or that he has to start/stay with the unit

Space Marines 'Command Squad' are also noted as Command Guard Squad in their entry.

Command Squad/Command Guard Squad and Honor Guard are both really similar to Retinue by definition.

by definition not rules ... next time leave the thesaurus at home. It'll help keep it simple

No, honour guard is not similar to a retinue; it has none of the rules that a retinue does.

And as for the "BRB Definition" you are not listing a definition you are listing examples of what they are normally called; hence the beginning of the parentheticals "which is normally called a...". The definition is that the unit cannot be left during the game, and accompanies the Character(which would mean "is required to begin the game in the same unit" as the character)

Which honour guard must Calgar be attached to? he has 3 of them and cannot be simultaneously attached to all 3, but if they are retinues then by definition he must; looks like your argument falls apart here.

"You may take a (Command squad/Honour guard) for every (Captain/Chapter master) in your army. This Unit does not count against your HQ allowances." This makes it pretty Clear, if it were a retinue the last line would be unnecessary as it would not be a separate unit anyways. To be honest the DA codex does it better Specifically stating that the Command Squad is a separate HQ unit.

4th Edition Retinue rules were not really any different then the 5th edition ones "Some characters are able to lead a special retinue, bodyguard or other HQ unit in battle. Where this is the case it is specified in their Codex book entry. If a character is feilded with such a unit, he may not leave them and join another unit while they remain alive. Should the unit be destroyed, the character may once again move between units" - 4th edition BRB page 51.

in the 4th edition Books Commanders, Chaplains, and Librarians each had an entry in their unit that said Command Squad(began with Reclusium or Librarium for Chaplains and Librarians respectively) wherein it told you that they may lead a Command squad or Terminator Command Squad into battle.

There is nothing similar in the 5th edition books all we are given is permission to buy a unit of Command squad for every Captain, and a unit of Honour guard for every Chapter master.

Nid tyrant guard are not exactly a retinue either, at least not until the tyrant joins them; the Dex gives permission for the tyrant to join, but never gives permission to leave, and the FAQ states that Tyrants may not leave once attached.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:by definition not rules ... next time leave the thesaurus at home. It'll help keep it simple

The rules define retinue:

P. 48 states that "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they can not leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard', or similar). where this is the case..."

Command guard squad, Honor guard are both similar to 'retinue' and 'bodyguard'.

As usual the BRB not 100% clear.

Examples are not Definitions.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Examples are not Definitions.

Exactly, and Retinue is then not defined in the BRB, so we have to use the common definition to determine what it means.

Retinue Definiton: Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they can not leave during the game.

Examples of Retinues: which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard', or 'similar'

Note the "normally" in the examples; this means that as a "general Rule" Retinues will be called one of those, when they are by definition(a unit the character must be fielded with and cannot leave) a Retinue.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Examples are not Definitions.

Exactly, and Retinue is then not defined in the BRB, so we have to use the common definition to determine what it means.

,

No actually as there is no proper definition, than if your codex doesnt spell it out for you in good ole black and white than its not a retinue. Saying a command squad is a retinue is wrong as it is not. Simple plain black and white ... it is not a retinue

@Reaper

You are stressing the BRB entry wrong.

The important part is not "or similar" (which just leads to random pseudologic assumptions), it is:

Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they can not leave during the game

What the next sentence means is, indeed: It does not have to be called retinue, it can be called Honorguard or command squad or anything.

But as long as the codex doesnt state, that the IC can not leave the unit, we have no retinue ruleswise.

Blood angels Honor Guard squad is a bodyguard squad, as per the BA book P.52

"A high ranking Blood Angels officer is often accompanied to battle by a dedicated squad of bodyguards known as Honor Guard...."

OK guess what though, its not a retinue ... congratulations ... and thanks for playing

Find rules that state the IC has to start with them and cannot leave? check again look it over check the faq too ...

And when Fluff starts equaling Rules you will be correct.

Now find me the Rules that state the Honor guard is both fielded with the HQ choices, and the Rule that states that the HQ unit that unlocked them cannot leave.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:OK guess what though, its not a retinue ... congratulations ... and thanks for playing

Find rules that state the IC has to start with them and cannot leave? check again look it over check the faq too ...

Retinue/Bodyguard, they are one in the same. the BRB gives the rules for the IC to not leave the Retinue/Bodyguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:And when Fluff starts equaling Rules you will be correct.

Now find me the Rules that state the Honor guard is both fielded with the HQ choices, and the Rule that states that the HQ unit that unlocked them cannot leave.

I saw nothing stating that it was fluff.

So; how exactly do those 4 Paragraphs of "story rules" work in game?

you need to find the rules that state he cant leave the unit in your codex under that section ... your imagination is taking over ... remember codex>BRB ... Kel's Right stop making fluff into rules ...

Kommissar Kel wrote:So; how exactly do those 4 Paragraphs of "story rules" work in game?

They describe the units. because without description we have only names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:you need to find the rules that state he cant leave the unit in your codex under that section ... your imagination is taking over ... remember codex>BRB ... Kel's Right stop making fluff into rules ...

They are in the BRB with nothing in the codex to say otherwise.

Yes and the Description is not Rules; it is Background and other Filler information, in other words: fluff.

No, the rules you are making up are not in the BRB; the rules in the BRB is how retinues work(this comes after the examples in the parentheticals) the Definition of what constitutes a Retinue is the rest of the sentence before the parentheticals.

For a Unit to be a retinue it's rules must state that it is a retinue(or have a rule calling itself one of the other exampled names), then that rule must tell you that the character must begin the game with the unit and that it cannot leave the unit. Once those two conditions are met you will have a retinue and that retinue plus Character will follow the remaining rules for how to use a retinue.

precisely so in the Codex there is nothing saying they are a retinue ... so theyre not ...

stop fluffing it up ...

And where does it state that the "Fluff" as you call it, are not rules?

They are contained within the rulebook.

What are rules if not descriptions of what things are?

they are a Retinue/bodyguard/SIMILAR... therefore they use those rules.

Though as I have said the BRB is not clear as usual.

DeathReaper wrote:Retinue/Bodyguard, they are one in the same. the BRB gives the rules for the IC to not leave the Retinue/Bodyguard.

You have that backwards.
The BRB says that a retinue is a unit that the IC can not leave during the game. So in order to be a retinue, the unit has to be defined as a unit that the IC can not leave. If the unit has such a rule (usually written to the effect of 'The IC and the squad form a single unit') then that unit is a retinue. If neither the unit nor the IC have a rule stating that they must remain together, then they do not have to remain together, which means that the unit does not fit the definition of a retinue.


The Space Marine Command Squad has no rule that says that they form a single unit with the IC, nor that they must remain with the IC, nor even that they are purchased to accompany the IC (as is the case with Tau retinues).

Taking the IC unlocks the option to include a Command Squad. But they are not a retinue.

DeathReaper wrote:And where does it state that the "Fluff" as you call it, are not rules?

They are contained within the rulebook.

What are rules if not descriptions of what things are?

they are a Retinue/bodyguard/SIMILAR... therefore they use those rules.

Though as I have said the BRB is not clear as usual.

Rules are not descriptions of what things are; they are descriptions of what things do. It is a very significant difference.

As i have said Time and Again the Definition of a Retinue is the First bit under retinues.

Retinue Definition: Units that must start the game with a character, and that the Character cannot leave.
Examples of names for Retinues: Retinues, Bodyguards, Something Similar(the last one is a fancy way of saying "etc")
Retinue Rules: The IC is an Upgrade Character in all respects, until such time as all other retinue members are killed. When only the Character is left he becomes an IC.

Command Squads are not Retinues by Definition; and therefore do not follow the Retinue rules.

DR - please listen to everyone else here.

You are stating that the examples actually define the first line, when you have that the wrong way round.

The qualifier is that the IC cannot leave the unit during the game, and that the example given is that the unit is called a "retinue or similar"

You do not say "this has the words similar to Retinue, therefore you cannot leave the unit" as you are committing a logical fallace of assuming that because A->B then B->A.

It doesn't. The Command squad is NOT a retinue, BY DEFINITION.

Finally: please stop arguing that fluff is rules. Even y ou must know the gaping chasm you are trying to build your rules house on....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Finally: please stop arguing that fluff is rules. Even y ou must know the gaping chasm you are trying to build your rules house on....

That last was unnecessary. If you can't make your point without making it personal, it's time to step away from the thread.

Kommissar Kel wrote:And the reason i chose the Tau codex was because it is not a 5th edition Codex; all other codexes that had retinues excepting Witch/Daemon hunters has already been redone, removing the retinues.

Slightly OT, but Black Templars have retinues. They suck, and you can sinlge out the ICs, but they're still retinues.

Insaniak - I thought it wasnt a personal "attack" at all - jus t the very real observation that, when you start arguing that the fluff constitutes rules then things get silly very quickly.

Apologies if it came off that way.

nosferatu1001 is correct, noting that someone is arguing from irrelevant premises is not a personal attack, since it is pointing out a weakness of argumentation rather than of the person employing it. Pointing out that DeathReaper should know better is likewise not a personal attack because it presumes that Death Reaper wants to know the truth in the matter rather than not being able to know, or posting in bad faith.

Nos is not correct. This:
"Even y ou must know..."
...makes it personal.

So how about we not try to blow a simple warning out of proportion, and stick to the actual topic... assuming anyone still has anything to add.