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@ChrisCP

That's where it breaks down. No problem for personal use inside the house. But don't bring your ripped off stuff to the LGS - they make money selling models. They will get angry when they find out you make your own, and ban you. If I'm with you I might get banned, and I don't want to get banned.

Recast an entire army to use on your home board? No problem.

phyrephly wrote:

Cantus wrote:
......but its not stealing is my obvious point.

So still having use of a stolen object makes it not stolen? So if I steal a thesis you wrote, you can still use it because you still have the thesis but now I have it as well. It isn't stealing in the strictest sense of the word but it when you say "you don't think it's immoral" you are trying to say it's right. But it's not right.

Firstly, stealing is also not the same as plagiarism, which I believe you're describing. They are completely separate terms and mean completely separate things.
Secondly, like I said, morality is what you make it. Do you mean it's a jerk thing to do? Then ya, you're probably correct. That bit is subjective though.

Dracos wrote:edit: @ Monster Rain

Okay stop with the quoting, we don't need to see the whole conversation every post.

You are incorrect, it is not called stealing. Stealing is something different.

Oh boy. Semantics.

Whatever let's you sleep at night.

@ Cantus:

Exactly, the whole thesis copying thing is only wrong if you are saying its your product. If someone makes a copy of my thesis but gives me credit for it I'm not going to break a sweat.

@ Monster Rain:

Yeah, having words with different meanings is too cumbersome since it entirely disproves your point. We should reduce language to a series of grunts that all mean the same thing.

Monster Rain wrote:

Cantus wrote:edited to make this bit smaller

Nah. I guess if you don't any integrity I'm not going to change it through a forum discussion.
If you can't afford it, I suppose I should be sympathetic.

I'm arguing that stealing is different than pirating, why is my integrity entering into this at all?

Monster Rain wrote:

Dracos wrote:and this bit too =D

You are incorrect, it is not called stealing. Stealing is something different.

Oh boy. Semantics.
Whatever let's you sleep at night.

And it's only semantics to the person consistently and argumentatively using the incorrect terms to support their point eh?
If you'd like to have a serious conversation about piracy than leave people's "integrity" out of it and explain your position. I'm eager to better understand your thinking as I don't understand it as we stand now.

Wow
a quintuple multiquote and on page 1
That could be some sort of record!

Or I have better things to do than listen to a stranger justify why he's a thief.

You pick.

Cantus wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Cantus wrote:
......but its not stealing is my obvious point.

So still having use of a stolen object makes it not stolen? So if I steal a thesis you wrote, you can still use it because you still have the thesis but now I have it as well. It isn't stealing in the strictest sense of the word but it when you say "you don't think it's immoral" you are trying to say it's right. But it's not right.

Firstly, stealing is also not the same as plagiarism, which I believe you're describing. They are completely separate terms and mean completely separate things.
Secondly, like I said, morality is what you make it. Do you mean it's a jerk thing to do? Then ya, you're probably correct. That bit is subjective though.

Plagarism is if you take some of the words and concepts in a piece of "work" and use it and make it your own. Stealing is when you take something completely. And you are stealing $$$ from games workshop by not paying for it since it's a product they sell. If you use a pirated codex as your own, you didn't plagiarise it, you STOLE it, since you didn't pay for it.

Not really. Am I stealing a codex by looking through my friends copy?

That's where this breaks down. Downloading a copied version of a Codex is more akin to looking through a friend's copy than taking one out of the store without paying for it. If I want to own the codex, I'll buy it. If I just want to look through it, I'll either look through one owned by a friend, at the store, or download one.

What if I download a codex but don't use it?

Monster Rain wrote:Or I have better things to do than listen to a stranger justify why he's a thief.

You pick.

LOL I'm right because I say so! I have the time to type out that I don't have the time to explain myself!

So what you're saying is that piracey is okay under your own roof? But everyone knows that!

And they aren't ripped off I've put huge amounts of time and effort learning how to professionally cast these models from scratch, I've even started to modify the molds to create conversions! Similar to if someone couldn't use the necrons codex due to it having 'skeletons' in it, and they'd re-made their own with full art and fluff - correct points too!

LGS do not make money from selling models - how dare you suggest such a thing!
Where's a point for 'it's GWs game - hand off' against 'I just want to play a game'?

phyrephly wrote:

Cantus wrote:smaller

Plagarism is if you take some of the words and concepts in a piece of "work" and use it and make it your own. Stealing is when you take something completely. And you are stealing $$$ from games workshop by not paying for it since it's a product they sell. If you use a pirated codex as your own, you didn't plagiarise it, you STOLE it, since you didn't pay for it.

No see, this is what people keep misunderstanding. STEALING requires the original copy to be gone from the victim's possession. Therefore plagiarism and piracy are not STEALING. You may think that they're immoral, but they're still separate things is all that I'm trying to convey.
Also, saying I would be "stealing" money from GW if i were to pirate a codex is making the assumption that I would have bought it if I couldn't pirate it, which is a big assumption. It could equally be said that I'm gaining them a consumer base by downloading it (since I wouldn't have spent 100$+ just on books) and then introducing it to my friends, who then buy the models.

Monstah Raaaaaaain wrote: Or I have better things to do than listen to a stranger justify why he's a thief.
You pick.

Alright bro, if you're going to be like that.

@ ChrisCP:

Sarcasm overload.... I can't tell which parts of your posts are sarcasm anymore lol.

Stealing != Piracy

Stealing: Dave has a movie. Tom takes it. Now Tom has a movie and Dave has no movie.

Piracy: Dave has a Movie. Tom Copies it. Now Tom has a Movie and Dave has a Movie.

Stealing is forcing someone else to lose enjoyment or whatnot of the movie. Piracy, both people have said movie to enjoy.

The only loser in this situation is the production company who charges exorbitantly, forcing Tom into either piracy or stealing in either situation.

Dracos wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Or I have better things to do than listen to a stranger justify why he's a thief.

You pick.

LOL I'm right because I say so! I have the time to type out that I don't have the time to explain myself!

You seem to have misunderstood me, let me rephrase:

I generally only engage in debate with people who's opinion I respect. I'm afraid that someone who is an unrepentant thief doesn't fit that description.

While I'm an advocate for online downloading, I'd have to agree with others that pirating codexes are indeed stealing, although more under the shoplifting category rather than home burglary. The owner looses revenu rather than access to a particular piece of info or service.

However the other end of the spectrum is how most people justify Piracy. There was a cracked article on the subject, about how people bottle water and selling it to you, effectively making you pay for something you can get (relatively) free. Depending on your views, that may or may not be stealing. While GW certainly doesnt sell you "nothing", their prices are still extremely over inflated, which sometimes make you feel like you're paying out the nose while getting back "nothing".

what if I make the Mold and cast the GW mini's using all this leftover sprue nonsense I have at the house.

Even more so if I buy the original model I'm making molds of IE; assault marines, vindicator, etc.

Codexes in a digital format are much more convenient than a printed codex. Said codex costing $25 is also silly. Why less than a hundred pages of softcover material should cost that much I'll never understand.
Not that that would change anything for me. Information should be free.
Of course, having every codex at hand and being able to check on opposing abilities/equipment/stats is very convenient.

Whatever justifies making yourself feel superior to people . . .

@ Monster Rain

Well since you apparently don't know the difference between theft and piracy, I have at least equal disdain for your opinion!

Irdiumstern wrote:Codexes in a digital format are much more convenient than a printed codex. Said codex costing $25 is also silly. Why less than a hundred pages of softcover material should cost that much I'll never understand.
Not that that would change anything for me. Information should be free.
Of course, having every codex at hand and being able to check on opposing abilities/equipment/stats is very convenient.

Whatever justifies making yourself feel superior to people . . .

Oh its not just this.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:While I'm an advocate for online downloading, I'd have to agree with others that pirating codexes are indeed stealing, although more under the shoplifting category rather than home burglary. The owner looses revenu rather than access to a particular piece of info or service.

This is the worst argument against piracy that I've ever heard. If I attempt to sell a product, and you don't buy it, are you stealing from me? But I'm loosing revenue aren't I? What about making something yourself that fills the same role?

Monster Rain wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Or I have better things to do than listen to a stranger justify why he's a thief.
You pick.

LOL I'm right because I say so! I have the time to type out that I don't have the time to explain myself!

You seem to have misunderstood me, let me rephrase:
I generally only engage in debate with people who's opinion I respect. I'm afraid that someone who is an unrepentant thief doesn't fit that description.

But you seem to have a profound misunderstanding of our position/opinion.. What if we talk it out, maybe we could come out to a mutually respected position =D


Alright, for you or anyone else, here are a series of hypotheticals.
Why are these ok? Or are they ok?
-Scratch building GW models
-Downloading a copy of the newest codex from the internet
-Looking over my friend's shoulder to read his codex
-Leafing through a codex in the store and not buying it
-Scribbling down the stats of a model you always forget the rules for and using those instead
-My friend scans his copy of a codex he just bought and gives me the files
-My friend burns me a mix cd (not strictly 40k related, but i'd argue it's still relevant)

@ Monster Rain

Yes I'm sure you have a very elaborate framework for your superiority complex. Probably not something to brag about though.

Just sayin'.

Dracos wrote:@ Monster Rain

Yes I'm sure you have a very elaborate framework for your superiority complex. Probably not something to brag about though.

Just sayin'.

It's not bragging if its true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cantus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Or I have better things to do than listen to a stranger justify why he's a thief.
You pick.

LOL I'm right because I say so! I have the time to type out that I don't have the time to explain myself!

You seem to have misunderstood me, let me rephrase:
I generally only engage in debate with people who's opinion I respect. I'm afraid that someone who is an unrepentant thief doesn't fit that description.

But you seem to have a profound misunderstanding of our position/opinion.. What if we talk it out, maybe we could come out to a mutually respected position =D


Alright, for you or anyone else, here are a series of hypotheticals.
Why are these ok? Or are they ok?
-Scratch building GW models
-Downloading a copy of the newest codex from the internet
-Looking over my friend's shoulder to read his codex
-Leafing through a codex in the store and not buying it
-Scribbling down the stats of a model you always forget the rules for and using those instead
-My friend scans his copy of a codex he just bought and gives me the files
-My friend burns me a mix cd (not strictly 40k related, but i'd argue it's still relevant)

Oh I burn CDs all the time. Just kidding, FBI.

I'd love a PDF of my Codexes, too.

I don't know. It just seems like if you have something that should have cost you money that you obtained by illegal means it at least fits a ballpark description of stealing.

Cantus wrote:Alright, for you or anyone else, here are a series of hypotheticals.
Why are these ok? Or are they ok?

Fun exercise! I'll bite

-Scratch building GW models

This is fine. You are making a replica. As long as you don't claim it to be the original you are fine.

-Downloading a copy of the newest codex from the internet

Same idea as looking at a friend's copy. If you are going to buy it, downloading it is like a preview. Downloading will not stop you from buying it if you were going to buy it in the first place.

-Looking over my friend's shoulder to read his codex

I can look where I please. No one has the right to tell me where I can look. My buddy can get angry that I'm invading his personal space though, or if my breath is smelly.

-Leafing through a codex in the store and not buying it

This is a service offered by the store. If they don't want me to look through it, then that's fine. By looking through the codex I am not agreeing to buy it.

-Scribbling down the stats of a model you always forget the rules for and using those instead

Similar to writing down a quote from your favorite book. As long as credit goes where it is due, you are just replicating an origional.

-My friend scans his copy of a codex he just bought and gives me the files

If I was going to buy it, I'll still by it. This is the same as looking at a friends copy. Instead I'm looking at pictures of his copy.

-My friend burns me a mix cd (not strictly 40k related, but i'd argue it's still relevant)

Its cool, but will be tossed if I don't like it! My buddy isn't claiming music on it is made by him, so if anyone asks we can credit whoever made the music.

Central theme: Replicating original creations is fine so long as it is clear its a replica. Not cool is replicating and passing off as an original.

Irdiumstern wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:While I'm an advocate for online downloading, I'd have to agree with others that pirating codexes are indeed stealing, although more under the shoplifting category rather than home burglary. The owner looses revenu rather than access to a particular piece of info or service.

This is the worst argument against piracy that I've ever heard. If I attempt to sell a product, and you don't buy it, are you stealing from me? But I'm loosing revenue aren't I? What about making something yourself that fills the same role?

If you attempt to sell a product, and I get it for free, without it coming as a gift (and thus no one actually making a purchase transaction) then yes it is stealing, because I am no longer rewarding your efforts, yet still taking your stuff. Money is simply proof of your effort. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brows? Problem is, GW thinks their sweat is made of gold and that our pockets are endless.

Cantus wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

Straw man argument. No one is talking about breaking into their FLGS and stealing stuff.
A better comparison would be he's selling a famous painting and you take a picture of it on your phone.

That's a terrible comparison.

A famous painting is limited to one piece. That's usually why they're famous, along with being a "masterpiece" by a specific artist, etc.

Anything else will not fetch the same price or have the same effect, it's just a copy.

That is a good point, its still not completely analogous. That being said, it was still a better comparison than the one he quoted.

At this point in the argument I would just like to point out again that HAVING a downloaded copy is fine, unless you don't buy the original to play games with. I have the original of each of the armies that I play.

There are two arguments currently running, WHAT IS PRIACY and IS PIRACY WRONG?

Piracy is copying something, and using it for your own use without paying for it. IE Downloaded codex.

Is it wrong? Yes.