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I don't see the problem. Sounds like the guy has real customers that can't play, and so might go elsewhere, because I bunch of leeches are hogging and damaging his tables.

Lomar your estimate is very low for where live. A space with enough room would cost at least £15k a year to keep the lights on and the doors open. About a £1000 a week in sales. I have both a GW and a FLGS local to me, I have no idea how the FLGS stays open.

I think the store owner has a point, but (IMO) he's going about it the wrong way.
No REASONABLE gamer should have a problem with a "pay to play" policy. A few bucks to hang out & use your stuff? Cool. No problem.

When he starts defining what you can and cannot do, though, he gets a bit ridiculous.
"Online? No. I didn't buy this online. MY Uncle Joe sent it to me from Kansas. Apparently, he got a good deal on it at a Flea market, and..."

So, then he's stuck himself with being forced to accept this potentially absurd story, or calling you out as a liar and potentially being wrong.

Eric

Paying to play isn't absurd in itself, it can be when you can get the same product prices and free tables to play elsewhere. If somewhere I like to play started having a fee of 10$ a month I'd probably pay during summer and stop playing during college, I'm not going to shell out 30$ during a period where I play 1-2 times in the whole 3 months.The real problem is with the "no-online" policy, guess what I asked for christmas this year: 40k models. Now, I'm not going to ask people around me to go to that specific store if they want to buy me models, they buy where they want. When I'll enter the store with those new tanks I got for christmas, how will the owner know if I got the models from there? Will I have to describe my friends and family who bought me models to the clerk? That's the problem. The policy in itself might be full of good will for local players but it has great potential for scaring any newcomer from the store and throwing in a bad atmosphere, and when those vets stop playing there the customer base will go down.

Stop comparing pool with warhammer, a miniature store sells models and has tables to play on them, free or not. A pool bar with a 2-5$ cover has beer for sale with tables to play pool, free or not. The difference is, to start playing pool I didn't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment. And any local warhammer store that starts selling beer will get me to pay cover right away.

Anyhow, we all should encourage the place we play at if we like it, anybody who doesn't like where he plays needs to find another venue. If you think X or Y rule is dumb just go elsewhere, they don't need your money if they make you unhappy.

Mr Mystery wrote:

derek wrote: While they may not like it, online shopping plays just as much an important part of the hobby as the local brick and mortar.

Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

Wrong, actually. And provably so.

You didn't offer any proof in your statement. Just personal experience. In an age where any relative/parent with an email account and a credit card can shop for hobby stuff online, not pay sales tax if the store isn't in the same state, and get their kid/you EXACTLY what they want because guess what, they have a direct link, on top of not having to deal with traffic, then online sales DO play a large and important part of the hobby. Does online shopping promote the social aspect? No, but I don't think anyone made that claim.

I'm all for buying from the FLGS, if they're supportive of their community at large. Everyone buying from them is a customer, doesn't matter if they're spending $5.00 or spending $50.00, they all deserve the same respect and treatment.

Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, if we're talking stores like the one I visited in Olathe Kansas when I was there

There is only one in Olathe, and it's probably the best store I've ever gamed at. In the decade plus now I've been visiting that store (less frequently now that I've moved about 45 mins away) the one constant is that the owner genuinely cares about providing a nice play for customers to play. It's why whenever I'm out that way I stop in and toss them some business. Crafting loyalty like that, and not forcing it goes a long way.

Kanluwen wrote:

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

I call bull on this.

My old FLGS ran a 30% off "membership"(I use the term loosely here--because you didn't pay anything for it. It was just if they'd had you in there multiple times or you showed up for events occasionally, you had it automatically) for anything you bought through them, and an extra 10% knocked off anything you preordered through them. They also did something where, when a new army was being released, anyone who bought that army book/codex and models for that army got that extra 10%(usually only for preorders) tacked on to their 30% off.

And people still bought online, despite the store being in a convenient location, the staff being absurdly friendly and the store having plenty of space to actually just sit down and work on your stuff right then and there.

If that's the case, I'd love to find out where they're buying because the best discount I can find online is 25% and free shipping over $75. If there's some place that can beat 30%, I haven't seen it yet and want to know where it is. I can tell you that I'd never stray from my FLGS if they offered that kind of discount; the best they've ever done for me is 10% which is fine but doesn't inspire me to spend all my hobby $ there.

Both of my FLGSs sold memberships for discounts. But I have heard of a couple of stores charging a table fee. One had a $5 table fee or a $5 purchase requirement. As I have said in previous posts, there are a lot of people who purchase all their stuff online, then complain about the condition of the local store. Remember, if your butt sits for free in a store that you aren't paying for, stop complaining that they don't cater to your needs!

@Hulksmash: Who are you? PM Me.

I've also made Game Ogre my first choice store these days.

The owner, Brian, is awesome, to the point of providing drinks and even pizza on occasion.

It's very rare that I go in there without finding something to drop some money on and I'll happily order through them if it's not something they have in stock.

I do wonder about the economics of the Friday Night Magic crowd, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love how people are turning their nose up at a 10% discount as if it were nothing at all.

If you got 10% off everything, everywhere you went, it would be the equivalent of getting a 15% pay rise.

I don't think too many of us would sneer at that!

+1 on the taking your own food to a restaurant comment as well...

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

I call bull on this.

My old FLGS ran a 30% off "membership"(I use the term loosely here--because you didn't pay anything for it. It was just if they'd had you in there multiple times or you showed up for events occasionally, you had it automatically) for anything you bought through them, and an extra 10% knocked off anything you preordered through them. They also did something where, when a new army was being released, anyone who bought that army book/codex and models for that army got that extra 10%(usually only for preorders) tacked on to their 30% off.

And people still bought online, despite the store being in a convenient location, the staff being absurdly friendly and the store having plenty of space to actually just sit down and work on your stuff right then and there.

If that's the case, I'd love to find out where they're buying because the best discount I can find online is 25% and free shipping over $75. If there's some place that can beat 30%, I haven't seen it yet and want to know where it is. I can tell you that I'd never stray from my FLGS if they offered that kind of discount; the best they've ever done for me is 10% which is fine but doesn't inspire me to spend all my hobby $ there.

I'd love to know where/what crazy world they were buying from too, to be honest. They mostly bought from Neal(as he was the biggest US online retailer during the timeframe where the FLGS ran that) and/or feeBay, but it seemed like they just weren't that bright about how they spent their money.

In general, I'm not against the idea of pay to play/memberships; although, the store would have to offer something substantial in terms of quality/service to make it worthwhile to me. If the store didn't really exceed the quality of terrain I have at home, I probably wouldn't bother going there. Having a wait time on tables would be unacceptable to me. I'd also stop buy from the FLGS entirely, as I'd no longer be playing there. I'd pay beaucoup bucks to play on a full urban board, though. I love me some sexy, sexy ruins.
---
The "no online armies" bit from the OP seems a tad strange. How does someone with a half online half store bought army fit in? What about someone with a fully store bought regular army but an online purchased Warhound titan? The purpose of the "no internet" armies is reasonable, but, as others have said, enforcement will get squirrely.

I don't get the consternation in the OP. The store owner can do whatever he wants, and you (the customer) can do whatever you want. Hell, the store being discussed even has tables open to the public.
---

Kanluwen wrote:I'd love to know where/what crazy world they were buying from too, to be honest. They mostly bought from Neal(as he was the biggest US online retailer during the timeframe where the FLGS ran that) and/or feeBay, but it seemed like they just weren't that bright about how they spent their money.

Maybe the they had friends who worked in a gamestore who would allow them to buy at cost? I used to know a guy who had a friend who knew a guy.

Another problem with the "no internet" army thing is .. what if you're a customer who has already spent a ton of money at the store? Then you decide to buy a full army at like 70% off from ebay. Just sounds like a guilt trip to me

If you spent much more than the average customer you're free to do whatever you want. Or what about the person who already HAS an army? Yet buys stuff from the store

So many loopholes and questions. However, as the recession gets worse players will find cheaper ways to fuel their hobby. Unfortunately this is a very expensive hobby and people still want to play it. This problem is very prevalent in college towns where players feel 0 obligation towards their local store because they're leaving for the summer or wont be there for more than a year anyway

I wouldnt mind paying a monthly fee, but random rules just make you look like an ass which forces people to leave

I see no problem with this. If it was a good place to game I'd pay to support it.

Could the OP provide a link to the site he took his quotes from? I'd like to see them in context and to see what game shop this is.

The quotes from the store owner sound like someone who is frustrated, but has the wrong idea. Either charge for space or don't, but trying to put alot of limits, rules with loopholes, and rantings online just makes you sound desperate and that will not endear you to customers.

If the owner really thinks that eliminating or limiting free gaming space will be good for buiness, a better solution would have been to simply say something to the effect of:

"Use of the gaming area will now require a 20 dollar monthly membership, or a five dollar purchase on that day. Thank you for your continued support durring these tough economic times"

I completely understand where the FLGS owner is coming, from but whining is unprofessional. Keep it simple, make a business decision, implement it and leave the personal ramblings out of it.

BloodQuest wrote:
I do wonder about the economics of the Friday Night Magic crowd, though.

Being a part of both the FNM crowd and the Warhammer ones, I have to say I see a lot more money flowing from the FNM players then the warhammer. The investment in warhammer is large, but for magic, its a never-ending stream. If the FNM is a draft style event, which many are, it's a huge cashflow. ~20+ people paying nearly 15 dollars each every friday night..not half bad. Add in the players that then buy boxes and extra packs for other events...and I see it being more of a "keep the doors open" then warhammer. The players are also more willing and eager to spend (imo) because they have such a well supported/designed/organized tournament system...but that's another beast entirely

My .02 on this...the guy running the store sounds unfortunately like many I've run in to. It's not that their idea is wrong, it's that they've got god awful social skills and business sense. You can tell from reading it that he's frustrated, and rightfully so, but posting up something like that which just reads as unprofessional and draconian won't help him make money. It'll make a lot of people turn their nose up at him and walk out. His delivery is what needs work, and the internet policy is just...as many have said...a nice dream from the B&M perspective, but in the end, a losing battle.

That being said, I don't think it's unfair to charge a fee for table/space usage. I love having a free place to game (not that I do so much anymore...working on that), but when I did, even though I bought my armies primarily online (the stores stock just often lacked what I wanted) I still made sure that I spent a fair amount of money regularly enough to support the store. If someone charged a fee, I'd likely feel less obligated to buy from them much and would instead consider the fee my financial support for the 1-2 times a month I used their space.

Mind you...this is all very dependent on the fee that he chooses. If it's unrealistic, no one will pay it of course, and he'll just lose a lot of business.

What about a business model like this where theres a fee to play for the day (say 5 dollars, which feels reasonable for me, its all profit of course, not like buying a 5 dollar model would be). I pay 5 dollars, I get to use the space. If I make a purchase of 25 dollars or more, he takes 5 dollars off of it to refund me my fee for shopping at his store. If not, he just keeps the fee.

If theres 10-20 people that come in and play throughout the course of that day, he's made 50-100 dollars of profit, which in actual sales is probably more like 100-200, just for the use of his tables. Seems like this could help out quite a bit while not breaking anyones back.

He IS frustrated and genuinely cares about the gaming community. He has a small group of leaches that either play with toys they "converted" on the cheap or buys everything off-site. He also has a great group of players that he cares about.

Players that will have no place to play if he goes under.

In the midst of the current economic woes he has chosen to invest in the store and make it an even better place to play and hang out. He bought several VERY nice tables (Adepticon/Games Day level) for us to play on to encourage more in-store traffic. Justifying the membership fee he's proposing.

As far as the online buyers go, he's the store owner and is there a large percentage of the time. He knows who buys from him and who doesn't. It's not an exact science but if he knows you've never bought a blister in there but are there 4 days a week then he doesn't need you.

This policy is not for the casual gamer in town looking for a game. Most of my group are an hour or more away from this store (I am 1.25 hrs away) and we are welcome at any time. This policy is for those that treat the store like their store but don't actually patronize it.

Here's a shot of just ONE of the tables we get to paly on for our $10/mo.



Fierce, for shame, jumping to ranty conclusions before just talking to the guy. He has a forum and a thread specifically asking for input on this topic for a reason.


Augustus, sent you a PM!

I'm a regular at the store discussed.

You're completely missing the backstory on why the policies are the way they are. Apparently you're not a regular there, havent discussed the policies with the owner face to face, and really haven't done anything except misinterpret the local forum postings.

Before you get all up in arms about how it's not fair, blah blah, etc etc, perhaps you should talk to the store owner face to face? He's a very nice guy, it's a great store, and the policies are quite reasonable if you know the back story.

As I explained to you already on the forums for the store, the policy about internet-purchased armies doesn't really apply to people in your situation. As I explained to you, I don't think the owner is going to have any objections to your playing there. As I explained to you, common sense should be applied.


But hey, thanks for flying off the handle without bothering to talk with the owner. Then going on DakkaDakka, bad-mouthing my local gaming store, and stirring up a bunch of drama over nothing.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:He IS frustrated and genuinely cares about the gaming community. He has a small group of leaches that either play with toys they "converted" on the cheap or buys everything off-site. He also has a great group of players that he cares about.

Players that will have no place to play if he goes under.

In the midst of the current economic woes he has chosen to invest in the store and make it an even better place to play and hang out. He bought several VERY nice tables (Adepticon/Games Day level) for us to play on to encourage more in-store traffic. Justifying the membership fee he's proposing.

As far as the online buyers go, he's the store owner and is there a large percentage of the time. He knows who buys from him and who doesn't. It's not an exact science but if he knows you've never bought a blister in there but are there 4 days a week then he doesn't need you.

This policy is not for the casual gamer in town looking for a game. Most of my group are an hour or more away from this store (I am 1.25 hrs away) and we are welcome at any time. This policy is for those that treat the store like their store but don't actually patronize it.

Here's a shot of just ONE of the tables we get to paly on for our $10/mo.



Fierce, for shame, jumping to ranty conclusions before just talking to the guy. He has a forum and a thread specifically asking for input on this topic for a reason.

1) Those tables look awesome
2) The bit I can see of the rest of the store seems to have very well stocked shelves, another +
3) 10 bucks a month is extremely reasonable for a fee. I was thinking 5 bucks a day for playing/using tables was a reasonable amount.

Id pay to play on those! I think the common consensus is to just charge a fee, but dont impose model restrictions. In pittsburgh we have two stores.. One is a very small shop with strict model requirements to play there and another is a very large store with no requirements. Virtually everyone ditched the small store due to silly random rules that hindered having fun

Hello,
I help run a game store locally, and we have alot of what I would call leeches, now that said let me explain, thease are a group of people that consistantly play rpgs, using our space, and might buy a couple of sodas from the fridge, hell one of them started bringing his own (they will be there for up to 4 hrs on average). They also have a bad habit of using the store copys of items or in some cases thinking it is ok to pull items form the shelves to look at the stats. We also have some card players who thought it was ok to sell thier cards in the store ( I chose to inform them that was not permited in the store ). As for wargamers, it is not hard to tell who got thier stuff from where for now (fairly small group, and they brought it from already having some of it, but will order if they need something), I built the terrain, and every one of them has offered to help build some and has even given some old stuff to the store they had (got a nifty ac bridge that way ), and they work ouut fairly well. The card players are a funny lot, they take up a ton of space and have some lothesome habits when it comes to tossing thier stuff everywhere. However if a new set comes out they will buy it, and then thier purchases are done for a bit as they get what they need, so other then new card games coming out, they are fairly cyclic. Is a membership fee in order, I think so, especially for the RPG lot, as they are not really supporting the store in any real manner. Thanks for the idea.

Regards,
Carl

Oh I totally agree about RPG players.. By and large Ive rarely seen them spend more than 10$ combined on any given day. There certainly should be a membership fee for them. Almost every DnD book is available in 10 mins on torrent sites, so I imagine tons dont even buy the books

I to have encountered stores that use the pay to play policy but only in tourneyments of some kind, I would never pay to play ever everytime I wanted to play Warhammer in a store, unless it was a tourneyment. I have even worked in a gamming store for 5 yrs and even then the pay to play was frowned on buy the Owner.

I have played many yrs since the start of D&D, the only time I had a problem was at the Adventures Guild in Cali, a few years back. And we had a D&D game sceduled on the calender for atleast 2 months in advance. We were very upset to loose are table space (thats 1 4x8 table and 6 chairs) to a Warhammer gamming group (The stores little click group), hech we have been playing and buying in this store for some of us for yrs. We felt we were wronged as we had that space held in advance, only to get the boot on are regular gamming night (saterday 3pm to 8pm every week). We stoped going to that store to play, as for online buying figures/armies I could care less about were you got it from.

It goes to show that some people can be very rude in the store for the slightest thing, or say something that gets taken wrong and blown outta praportion. If the store charges to play at their tables, play at your house or a friends for free. They cry and whine like babies because your army is not purchased from that store, "Don't play with them". I have seen it all in my time gamming even fist fights for what peoples charicters have said in charicter of that game.

At my house, if you act a fool your asked to leave. In my store you act a fool, the Cops haul you out and your banned. Just because people buy online there is no need to act a fool. Play and have fun, I really think in my opinion (no insult to others) that to charge anyone to play at store provided gamming tables. That it should be free (why is that they will buy there and return) return buisiness is the life blood of these stores, if custumers are faced with paying to play they may not return. Free play is always better because the customers are happier if treated nice and are comfortable, not forced to pay additional charges.

Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

while it's not unreasonable that a store asks you to pay a fee for using their table space, it would raise my eyebrow if they did that and didn't have something nice to offer. If all they don't have nice facilities and eye catching terrain, then don't expect alot of people to take you up on the offer. there was a store that i went to once that did have nice terrain and charged a monthly fee to join their gaming club with access to the tables in back but i had to pass after reading the stipulations in their 15 page membership agreement contract (not kidding). first off, the fee was a bit much IMO ($15 not applied to store credit, which i would have been fine with if it had been applied) and they required you to pitch in cleaning up, including the bathrooms! i always put away terrain that i use and tidy up my gaming space but i'll be damned if a store is going to charge me to use the table and then make me vacuum and scrub the toilets.

Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

I can completely understand everything he's doing. And while the no-online armies thing is a bit too much of a blanket statement for some people, I think the intent there is easily understood and reasonable. If you suddenly appear one day with a full army you didn't have before and didn't purchase from them, that's a lot of profit you just took out of his pocket, and expect to come and play at a store he's running largely for your benefit. If you keep expanding your army with units that he isn't selling you, I wouldn't expect him continue to extend to you the privelage of using his store to play.

Stores close when you don't support them. Actual stores have higher overhead than online, and as such can't always give such generous discounts if they don't have volume of sales to make up for it. If you buy your mini's online, from a competitor, or just say "I paid xxxx.xx USD/GBP/EUR/Whatever for my army, so I should be able to play whenever here for free!" you aren't contributing to the volume of sales, so you should expect to pay full price. And if you expect to play there, you should be willing to spend your money there. Not at The War Store, not Wayland, not Ebay. You aren't playing in Neil's store, the person keeping the lights on and the tables up and running is the one you should be buying from.

My FLGS is closing at the end of this month, the only one near town. I'm very used to getting discounts on my mini's. Spoiled really, I lived within walking distance of a store that sold all GW products at 20% off regularly and about 20 minutes from another with a really cool owner and some tables with a 15% discount and an increased one for large orders (With a down payment, of course.) for the first 5 years or so of my wargaming. This one couldn't afford the discount, and while we had a fairly loyal base, most of us who were really loyal to the owner were a little down on our luck money wise. Minimum wage workers and career students with bills to pay can't really afford much Warhammer stuff. But we still bought everything new from him at full price with no complaints. We couldn't do much, but we did what we could to help keep the guy in business.


tl;dr: If you don't want to pay your FLGS for your mini's or to play there, build yourself a table and play at home. Don't expect them to extend the privelage of using their store to people who can't be bothered to help keep it open where they can.

To be clear, this is not a "Pay to Play" policy. It is a "Pay to Play on premium badass tables we paid an assload for and intend to maintain" policy.

As explained in the pasted text, the new tables take up a lot of the space, space that will be reserved for actual customers. Other space may be utilized by anyone, but on a first-come-first-served basis.

The venting about online purchases is just a perk of it.

When I played D&D minis there would be fees for table use in the stores..however the store would usually put more than half of it into a price pot for a tournament style giveaway that night. In this case it feels both players and the store is showing their appreciation to eachother and has been one of my favorite ways to play any game. Too bad WoTC pretty much killed D&D mini's =/

Ghiest1 wrote:Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

Sadly these people are not even lookie lose, as they do not buy thier books there and take up 2 tables for 4 hour streches. They dont even come close to spending 10$ a month, with the exception of one player. I would like to know where to get the shrink wrap though, that would not damage the books .

Regards,
Carl

Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

Also after seeing how much dedicationg the owner has to the game with hisstock (from what I can see) I can see why he would wish some sort of help from the people he is tryin to accomidate..

Edit: Although the you have to buy here to play it here is a bit odd and off putting. Heck who knows if you traded that army you Bought there for the army you have now..hmmm do not like that rule

quote-fail

I have played at the store being discussed for about 6 years now and it is one of the best I have ever played in. I totally agree with the owner's decision to have a membership to play on the awesome tables he recently acquired. Beyond the one pictured above there are 4 more made by the same person and they are absolutely gorgeous.

The whole online army stems from a few people who have played in the store for quite a bit of time but buy nothing, NOTHING, there. They do not support the store in the least and simply take the space for granted. If they think the X% they saved by buying online is so awesome they should try playing there too.

The point is: if one plays at a store enough to be considered a regular but won't spend, say, 10 bucks a month to help keep that place open then why are they there anyway?

OP is having an episode. Here's a couple more reasons of why we pay a tiny amount to play: