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Turalon wrote:Ya, but if you charge the front of a monsterous horde, you deserve whatever is comming to you (which I think would be a total beat down).

Generally though, I think that Brets work ok in this edition. I find that I need to play a lot better and put more effort into planing my deployment and what unit matchups I want a lot more than I would with my Elves or Empire.

The lvl 4 life mage is a must. Simply put, I have never won a game without one so far. That makes the build fairly simple and there are not many options as far as I can see it. But, I think that this is a common occurance for many armies right now, particularly the older books.

1) Standard anti-deathstar tactics work just fine against it. And while most of your points are tied up here, I will massacre the rest of your army, then take this monster from every direction but the front.

2) Dwellers. 'nuff said. [EDIT: Scooped!]

3) Or I could just build a bigger, better deathstar and slug it out. I think Chaos Knights has some options that would eat this for breakfast, VC can take it with WS 10 Ghouls, etc, etc, etc.

Personally, I think the GK don't need the backing of characters except (perhaps) a Life caster. The THREE paladins are certainly overkill, and better suited to stiffening your KOTR/KE units up.

But it is a lot of high stregnth attacks. Plus the unit will break most enemies on the charge once they do around 20 wounds at -3 to their AS Even choas knight will have a hard time surviving that.

31 S 6 attacks on the charge, not counting the horses and the fey enchantresses attacks and spiteful glace.

Meh the same cost in TG with a lifeslaan can take it (sometimes with T6/8, but surely with some sort of regen), and then hit back with a mincing effect, true the lizards would loose the charge round but theyre stubborn and can be revived so who cares.

More importantly stubborn, Ld10 cold blooded with a reroll.

Hideously difficult to move

I'm pretty sure that no matter what, a charging Lance of Bretonnian Knights will ALWAYS be scary. My Dwarven infantry have learned that lesson more than a few times.

Yea, but your lizards wont be lasting long at all, I will kill 15-20, and i will be deeper rank wise than you with 5 ranks.

Your attacks back would reduce me to a 3+/5+, plus i get +6 to cast lore of life spells with the fey enchantress. So, your lizzards have the same chance that my guys do to be highere toughness.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Yea, but your lizards wont be lasting long at all, I will kill 15-20, and i will be deeper rank wise than you with 5 ranks.

Your attacks back would reduce me to a 3+/5+, plus i get +6 to cast lore of life spells with the fey enchantress. So, your lizzards have the same chance that my guys do to be highere toughness.

The problem here is that any knight he kills will reduce your effectiveness more than it will his.

I guess Ld 10 Cold Blooded stubborn with a re-roll is entirely moot in your discussion, but my vote's on the Temple Guard. And you're at 4+/5+, I'm sure the Temple Guard will use Halberds, and because they're able to be revived it means that after the charge you're getting seriously diminished returns. And despite Paladins being great heroes, they're still only T4 with two wounds, they're not unkillable. So you either shell out for high damage low survivability gear or suit them up to be unkillable but they have little/no damage output.

Battle Bus formations also laugh. 40 Empire Greatswords in 8 ranks? Go ahead and kill 15, we're still in 5 ranks. 11 Great Weapon attacks will kill SOMEthing, and if I throw in a Wizard/Warrior Priest or whatever that just makes it even worse. And free-flank by a detachment just rains on the parade, eh?

It's not a bad unit, but it's far from the best.


On-Topic: Brets still work fine, they just can't charge in straight away and win all the time. With Trebuchets and the new rules they've got great opportunities to use these and the cheap Bowmen to whittle away at enemies until the Knights can finally sweep in and kill 'em. Men at Arms aren't too bad either (Ok, WS 2 is pretty bad, but...) if you can somehow get over that, you're golden.

Honestly, the biggest drawback to brets right now is how expensive a men at arms model is.

A skaven slave with shield is half the points, and has pretty much the same stat line as men at arms (minus the light armor, but i dont think that is worth 2.5 points per model.

Its just old book syndrome. Men at arms really should be like 3 points per model. Hell look at marauders for 5 points a model...

Men at Arms, come with a 5+ save vs shooting, 6+ in hand to hand, and a halberd or spear; they also don't panic knights, and use knights leadership, reducing the need for a general in the area.

So you've got slave style stats, but with light armor, shield and spear; plus you can actually flee a charge and rally (something that slaves rarely do).

I think 5 points is right on for men at arms.


I don't think WS2 is that big of a deal. So you only hit elite infantry on 5's... so what? You get lance formation to strip steadfast and slaughter elite infantry. How many WS5 units do you see with 5+ ranks?
Worst case is, the 5 point men at arms are only steadfast against the elite infantry; which is still very good.


-Matt

UNREAL - hence the lifeslaan. You're wounding on 6s (IF T8) or else you are having to get through regen. Regen halves your casualties and boom, you are back to stubborn TG even before they hit back.

The lizards have no choice but to use halberds anymore, sadly.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Men at Arms, come with a 5+ save vs shooting, 6+ in hand to hand, and a halberd or spear; they also don't panic knights, and use knights leadership, reducing the need for a general in the area.

So you've got slave style stats, but with light armor, shield and spear; plus you can actually flee a charge and rally (something that slaves rarely do).

I think 5 points is right on for men at arms.


I don't think WS2 is that big of a deal. So you only hit elite infantry on 5's... so what? You get lance formation to strip steadfast and slaughter elite infantry. How many WS5 units do you see with 5+ ranks?
Worst case is, the 5 point men at arms are only steadfast against the elite infantry; which is still very good.


-Matt

This is somewhat true, however.

Slaves dont panic anything but other slaves (akin to peasants not panicing knights). So that bonus is a wash.

Slaves can take spears and shields, for an extra point, making them 3 points.

So your spending two points per model for light armor...

Slaves can also flee a charge and rally, especially if the general is in the area, ld 7 isnt that incredibly terrible.

Ld8 with a musician

Slaves are ld10 if the general is close by, or 9 if you put a 15 point engineer in them.

Granted, its a little easier for men at arms to be near a unit of knights. But does that justify how expensive they are?

From playing both armies (skaven and Bretonnia) I am constantly wondering why men at arms arent cheaper... They just arent that much better than a skaven slave...

Also add shields to slaves for 0.5 points per model and you have a fancy parry save to boot, that men at arms cant get... Now I know you can put a damsel with a prayer icon in the men at arms for the 6+ ward, but that cost 90 points, further increasing the cost of the unit.

Eh, for 5 or so points Men At Arms aren't bad. The thing is that Men at Arms have access to things like Lore of Life and Beasts to augment their stats, and Light Armor + Shield makes for a more survivable tarpit. Also, don't they benefit from the Ld of a knight unit within like 6" or so?

Slaves aren't bad, but bear in mind that they and Men at Arms are slightly different in purpose. Men at Arms are more comparable to Clanrats, IMHO.

ShivanAngel wrote:Slaves are ld10 if the general is close by, or 9 if you put a 15 point engineer in them.

Not to rally though. You lose the rank bonus to Ld from Strength in Numbers while fleeing, as per Pg. 33 of the Skaven army book.

true, then they would be leadership 7 if the general is nearby, while not great, its not impossible to do with bsb rerolls.

If he's nearby. If not, Ld 2 for you! I'd say "keep in mind slaves can't fall back from close combat", but really in the end sometimes blowing up > getting a chance to rally.

Given the cost of more comparable Clan Rats, I wouldn't be surprised by a price drop of 1 point for Men-at-Arms in the next Brettonian book, possibly 2.

Comparing Men at Arms to slaves is playing a trick, because slaves are underpriced and by quite a bit.

Instead, compare men at arms to clanrats, or Empire state troops and while it becomes clear they're a little too expensive for what you get, it's nothing like what the comparison to slaves will give you.

I personally think they've gotten better. The three lores for magic users all got extremely more powerful. Lore of life or beasts bret knights can get hard to handle. Massed ranked men at arms for steadfast are dirt cheap. Mounted great weapons are +2 strength. Trebeuchies (sp) are now the best war machines in all of fantasy. They have flying skirmisher knight fast cav with t4 and a stomp. A lord than can one shot kill a dragon or hydra or even steam tank. I think brettonion's have gotten much better this edition. The list is different from a 6/7th ed competitive list though.

Cryonicleech wrote:
Battle Bus formations also laugh. 40 Empire Greatswords in 8 ranks? Go ahead and kill 15, we're still in 5 ranks. 11 Great Weapon attacks will kill SOMEthing, and if I throw in a Wizard/Warrior Priest or whatever that just makes it even worse. And free-flank by a detachment just rains on the parade, eh?

That's going to kill one or two knights, assuming no multi-wounders. Surely some losses are to be expected. Why you would rank up Greatswords in this way I don't know, they're stubborn regardless of ranks, even though Ld 8 on its own can still have catastrophic results.

A wizard could stand elsewhere but a WP must be in the front rank where all those lances hit, and most aren't very survivable.

ShivanAngel wrote:
Slaves are ld10 if the general is close by, or 9 if you put a 15 point engineer in them.

Not when they're fleeing though. Slaves are a wee bit to cheap or should not count towards core, Men-at-Arms (and State Troops, while I'm at it) are a wee bit too expensive.

Slaves are Ld8 if the general is nearby - for 2pts why wouldnt you add a musician to a unit of 50? Never mind you may even win the odd combat....

MaA are so expensive because its a 6th ed book, when infantry cost more than it does now.

And if someones shot slaves neough to make them run, then they havent shot my other skaven bits and pieces!

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Not when they're fleeing though. Slaves are a wee bit to cheap or should not count towards core, Men-at-Arms (and State Troops, while I'm at it) are a wee bit too expensive.

Slaves are fine, really. They get dragged down very quickly by anything pointed at them, drop in effectiveness remarkably once the general / BSB is out of range and skaven already have two core choices that don't count as core. (Giant Rats / Rat Swarms) With Storm Vermin and Night Runners not remotely worth their points that doesn't leave a lot of options for core. If Giant Rats or Rat Swarms counted, you might actually see less Slaves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Slaves are Ld8 if the general is nearby - for 2pts why wouldnt you add a musician to a unit of 50? Never mind you may even win the odd combat....
MaA are so expensive because its a 6th ed book, when infantry cost more than it does now.
And if someones shot slaves neough to make them run, then they havent shot my other skaven bits and pieces!

Unless they shot your other bits and pieces enough to make the slaves panic!
It's sort of amazing what you can pull down with a few good rolls, or even a few average rolls over time. I've killed our OnG player's shaman twice just by poking him with slaves.

I also play lizards, so i know the joy of killing "tough model X" with Skinks, who are slightly crappier than slaves in combat....

I also like their explosion. Hellishly fun...

Dont know how you are getting slaves as leadership 8 with general nearby...

Leadership 7 Warlord or Grey Seer + 3 ranks of slaves=ld10

Also slaves were only worth two points in 7th because they were horrible. You used them in minimum units to screen and what not. However, the implementation of steadfast plus strength in numbers with the general working with it put them way over the top.

Fluffwise I can see it, the general is nearby, theres still a lot of you, you know if you run away odds are your going to be killed if you every show your face again... However, at 2 points a pop...

@ nosferatu1001 you are basing your entire argument around a life slann getting spells by the fey enchantress. I dont see that as being likely. Plus she alone will kill 3 or 4 lizards regardless of their toughness because of her spiteful Glance rule. So, no matter what, the bretonnians will have the advantage in this fight.

No wonder thw word "unreal" is in your nick if you can't admit to the fact that a deathstar better than yours can be made.
If you think the lizardmen lifestar is no problem how about the regenerating graveguard of WS 10 they even breed like rabbits at times.

I never said it was the best deathstart, i was saying the TG unit wouldnt stand a chance. When i use my VC army i run a hoard of 50 GG with Great Weapons, The regen banner, the +1 to hit banner. There is always a ws 10 lord with the helm of command supporting them. I think that is one of the best deathstars there are. But the witch elf deathstar is always strong.

Deathstars are, in the final analysis, a 'tactic' of weakness. You depend upon the other guy being dumb enough to throw his strength against your much stronger 'strong point.' And the first tenet of tactics is to pit your strength against your opponent's weaknesses.

Thus, the standard anti-deathstar tactic: Kill everything else they have, and avoid engaging the deathstar. Feed it some chaff units to tie it up if need be. Done right, you will score a marginal victory most of the time, at worst a stalemate.

Sure, in a tourney that kinda sucks. But... if the Deathstar ONLY scores stalemates, and you do well in your other battles, guess what? You still win the tourney... or at least beat the Deathstar in the rankings.

The worse thing about the bret deathstar against other versions is that if flanked it cant reforme to face the enemy as that would remove models from base to base.

THe bret Deathstar does have to casue the enemy uinit to flee the turn it hits or else there could be soem serious problems. Even if it is flanked it still has a chance.