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H.B.M.C. wrote:Didn't we just have this thread like a week or so ago?

And the week before that, and the one before that.

The obvious answer is zero (0). The reason for this: Is the two points the bolt pistol on the commander that the IG player wanted to include, or is the two points the 10th space marine in the tac squad? If it IS, then not only did you give them a space marine they shouldn't have had, but they also happily took that missile launcher and flamer as well. Alternatively, they got the tenth assault marine and the free rhino, for you twilight marines.

After thinking about it, I'd allow Necrons or Pure Grey Knights to go over. Would probably allow it for Dark Angels or Black Templar as well. Those guys need all the help they can get.

A lot also depends on the list. Codices like Tau, IG, Orks, and DH/WH all have tons of low point cost upgrades. You can find room somehow.

Most modern codices do operate with 5pt building blocks, such as SW, BA, and SN. Nids and Demons have more fiddly point options, but don't have thresholds for squad sizes: taking 11 termagants isn't that different from taking 12.

Eldar are a pretty rare codex in that they are low model count without many options to bulk out points. I'm ok with allowing Eldar to be a few points over more often than I am with most other books.

As has been said, for tournaments the limit is the limit, however.

I personally could care less, I have allowed some one to be 50 points over before, I added a few models to my army. It was just for fun so we had fun. I also will tell my opponent to just place his models on the table any ways if they accidently scattered off. I am playing for fun often people I play with want to try stuff out. I am also pretty new to 40k and I also am known to go over, put 10 terminators in a drop pod, and a few more stupid mistakes.

I also don't see how it is hard to stay in the limits of the points agreed on.15 points over drop a few guys or upgrades. but in q pick up game where we both make lists on the spot I don't really care.

I think it's kind of strange if you think rationally to worry so much about a few percent of the game total in points, when you know that the point values themselves are not scaled to be anywhere near a 1-2% "balance".

Also in a game where 10-25% of the person who goes second's army routinely gets killed before they have a chance to do anything how can a few points here and there rationally make a difference? Sure you can go back at the end of a game and say look those 2 pts made a difference, but if you replayed the same game an hour later the outcome would be totally different.

I play with people I know so maybe my outlook would be different if I routinely played with strangers, but for myself I can't really see getting too worked up about it.

Steelmage99 wrote:We have to set the limit somewhere....

Do we? Why?

For a fun game between friends, I'll allow some leeway- especially if they're new / just learning the game.

In a competitive setting it's got to be 0- they should know better.

seems a lot of people are more allowing then I am, point limit is the point limit. I can understand a point or 2, but anything more then that and your starting to match the price of an upgrade.

Our group are not a bunch of RAW enthusiasts, but this is one rule we never break. 1500 means 1500 or less. We never allow even a single point overage. Getting the best list possible without going over is a big part of the strategy of the game.

I agree if the person is new then few points over while they learn is okay.

The real problem I have is when you got that guy who's been playing for years asking for a little over. I think they are being enabled to play at a little over the limit.

I'd rather just say; "Ok you can't get under 1000 points why don't we try for 1250 or 1500?" than enable someone to bend the rules.

Would you allow someone to bend the rules like measuring front of base to rear of base? It's not that much distance...

Hey, they can be a little over, if that is an extra guy, then hey, just one more thing that will be dead at the end of the match.

They can take their extra termie, I will just shoot at it 30 times from one squad, he will roll a 1 eventually.

Saying most of our games our pick ups, and no one can seem to have a list prepared EVER, I kinda got over the points things. For most people at the store, going over will actually give them something that will actually make the game fun.

and additional 1" on a 6" move is more than a 15% difference in something that is an actual physical measurement. 10 pts in a 1000pt game is a 1% difference in something that is inaccurate and largely made up with no basis in reality.

I'd say a better analogy would be if you made sure you got your ruler calibrated by a certified body, and then used only notarized professional miniature movers to make your moves for you, you would be likely to get a 1% error in movement. Would you require this? than why worry about a few percent pts over?

Zero.

When I first started playing, me and my friends were rather lax in this. We started out saying 1 or 2 points over is fine. But then someone wanted to go 3 points over, and what's one more point, after all? Before you know it, the point restriction was more of a guideline than anything.

"You're 200 points over? Well, then I'll take an extra Land Raider and we'll call it even."
"But you already have 3 HS choices! If you get an extra Land Raider, then I want a 4th Berzerker squad!"
"Deal, but then I get another 100 points."
etc

When you set a point limit, that's the limit. The limit isn't 1 point more than that.

No points over.

Depends... in Ireland for casual we were ok with 1 or 2 pts.

But say I was against a marine player that was 16pts over (a marine) and he had a 5 man tac squad... I'd offer the flexability to take away a marine... (even though you normally can't have 4 man squads) since it balances things up more evenly.


But for tournaments the pts are the pts... that's it. No argument.

rodt777 wrote:...wondering how many points you allow your opponent to be.

I do not allow my opponent anything, Chuck Norris allows my opponent to be. Points don't come into it.

(None ever, and cogent sentences FTW. Thin thread is thin.)

0.

If we want to play a 1508 game we do so.

If I bring 1 extra point, my opponent gets 1 extra model--and I suggest to him it be a monolith.

I used to allow it, but after one of these threads a while back, the posts within convinced me to stop it and just aim for sets points or below.

Even if it means some lists I am short on points or have to modify the list.

Think my worst was about 18pts under as any unit that had troops for that kinda cost where maxed.

I now prefer it this way, and it avoids any potential arguements.

Zero. If I and my opponent want to play 1752 instead of 1750, then we'll agree to that instead. A point limit is a part of the game, as is building a list that fits within it.

Zero, end of story. Coming in over the limit is just lazy, rude, and/or self-entitled. No call for it, no reason you can't adjust it to the correct cap in 99.99% of circumstances.

Many armies nowadays have 3-5pt upgrades. The points limit is a limit. Take off that upgrade.

A small 1-5 points over should be allowed only if the list was being created by a new player.
They might have got some math wrong, and then with them being new, they probably won't use everything to its full power.

If it's for tournament play of course you can't go over.
I for one usually play under points, but that's because I don't see anything worth upgrading.

Also, I think some people are missing the point of friendly games...

Might as well call it "Serious Practice Time"

Kinda hard to find that some people can't play a game with even 1 extra point. It's a game... pure and simple.

Depends what it's been spent on really. Nit picky I know, but if it's paying for a really nice suit of armour on a Lord, when there is a slightly cheaper alternative out there, tough titty, downgrade.

If it's stuff like a spear armed regiment instead of hand weapons, meh.

I think its okay if they are just over the point limit eg 5 points, because 5 points isn't going to make much of a difference.

The_Savior wrote:Also, I think some people are missing the point of friendly games...

Not at all. Being friendly does not (among those I know) include breaking agreements or rules.

Making a mistake is one thing, but agreeing to a game whose point value is 2000 or less, and then deliberately showing up with more than that is another.

Being a friendly game, I am inclined to agree to (literally) any point value.


If you are 100% incapable of making a list under a certain value, do not agree to play games below that number.

kirsanth wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Also, I think some people are missing the point of friendly games...

Not at all. Being friendly does not (among those I know) include breaking agreements or rules.

Making a mistake is one thing, but agreeing to a game whose point value is 2000 or less, and then deliberately showing up with more than that is another.

Being a friendly game, I am inclined to agree to (literally) any point value.


If you are 100% incapable of making a list under a certain value, do not agree to play games below that number.

I'm talking a small mistake of 1-5.

I'm sure if you're an experienced player you can handle a few points over. Especially when playing a NEW player.

If anything, you'd probably take it as a small challenge.

The_Savior wrote:
Also, I think some people are missing the point of friendly games...

Might as well call it "Serious Practice Time"

Kinda hard to find that some people can't play a game with even 1 extra point. It's a game... pure and simple.

Okay, lets play Risk, but I get 2 more territories than you, and I get to pick those off the top, before we roll off to see who picks. No? How about tennis and we start 15-love? How about you serve with your offhand? A friendly game should be friendly, but it should be fair. When you're munchkining in more points, the underlying premise of it being 'friendly' or 'sporting' goes away.

"I'm sorry you consider it fluffy that your Tac Squads all have a TLLC Razorback. Perhaps you should rethink some other portion of your army to make it work?"

How about this, how about we just up the amount to how much you're (hypothetically) over, and you give me 10 minutes to rework my list?

While I totally accept the premise that planning an army has become a big part of the game, I also think that the points system is an abstraction, so I would happily give someone a bit of leeway on a pickup game.

However, I'd really like to see some kind of mechanism for dealing with armies of differing values, for example, where the smaller force can win by achieving its goal, even though it may get wiped out...

In friendly games I allow my friends to go over by 4 points maximum: once you hit 5 points, you should be able to drop SOMETHING in a 5th edition codex (older codexes have quite a few 1-4pt items, so it should rarely be an issue). In tournaments there is no excuse to ever go over points. Under is ok (and common) and over is bad. If I ran a tournament and one player was found to be over points in a round, all of his previous rounds would be changed to losses and the TO would decide what gets removed to make it fit for any future matches. No reason he can't keep playing: just a big penalty.

I really am suprised people are so hung up on having the points match exactly. Elsewhere on the board it seems to be common knowledge that some lists can't win and certain lists could never beat another list. Do points matter or not?

asmith wrote: Do points matter or not?

If the points do not matter, then remove them. If they are worth making a big deal about, then why is it odd your opponent makes a big deal about them too?