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I believe I read somewhere that being an Imperial Citizen brings with it no rights, only requirements of service.

Harriticus wrote:I believe I read somewhere that being an Imperial Citizen brings with it no rights, only requirements of service.

As an Imperial citizen, sure. But every Imperial citizen is also a citizen of a planet or starship. And depending on the planet or starship involved, they may have rights from that source. A citizen of Necromunda and a citizen of Ultramar are both citizens of the Imperium. But their rights derive pretty much exclusively from the worlds that they live on.

So yes, most citizens of the Imperium have varying amounts of civil rights. But those rights don't derive from the Imperium.

Ashryu wrote:Imperial Quote of the Day: The loyal servant learns to love the lash.

Sounds like something a Dark Eldar would say.

There's a dichotomy at play.

Imperial denizens are citizens of two systems, the planet on which they reside, and the Imperium.

Insofar as the Imperium is concerned, let's look at the following rights in the first amendment to the constitution.

1) Freedom of worship: Yes and no. You are free to worship the emperor (or machine spirit) within acceptable norms. As such, you can choose your flavor of emperor (or machine) worship. Anything else is heresy, the severity of which will be punished according to the magnitude of the deviation. And of course, heresy is redefined regularly, and new cults treated with suspicion at best.

2) Freedom of speech: Yes and no. So long as your words and thoughts are not judged to be subversive to the Imperium, you're free to say and write what you please. Bear in mind, however, that there appears to be no hard and fast rule regarding what is and is not acceptable, and pissing off the wrong people is a good way to get a 2 am knock on the door from the Arbites or Inquisition.

3) Freedom of assembly: None, unless you join the Imperial Guard.

4) Freedom of the press: Nonexistant, unless you count Imperial propaganda, and whatever redacted news they publish, along with public service decrees.

5) Freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances: an interesting one. The Imperium can and does take corrupt or incompetent governors to task, so theoretically, an imperial citizen could ask for stuff from the Imperial mechanism, but obviously this is a) dicey and b) horribly inefficient.

That's from an Imperial point of view. As the fluff mentions, however, the worlds of the Imperium are incredibly diverse. Some worlds are barely aware of the Imperium and just live and let live as they go about their daily business. So long as there is no organized heresy and the planet meets its religious, military, and administrative requirements, I imagine they are largely left alone to their own devices. If, however, the Imperium or its agents determine a planet has strayed from the path of what is right and acceptable, the mighty banhammer of the Emperor can be expected to deal with the issue rather forcefully.

So in terms of intergalactic and Imperial civil rights, they are severely curtailed. However, the Imperium has very little day-to-day interaction with the majority of its citizens, and with an empire so large and a bureaucracy so complex, it can't be everywhere at once.

So, I'd say that there is room for dissent and discussion within the Imperium's ranks, as well as outside the Imperium's ranks on minor matters, such as local laws and non-Imperial matters. Any attempts to challenge Imperial authority, however are met with harsh repercussions.

To me, it's kinda like living in Medieval Europe with the inquisition. You can probably get by with dissent, so long as its acceptable and not too obvious.

I love the lash. Don't you?

Viper217 wrote:Sure they do, they have the right to work hard all their lives for the good of the Imperium! What more could they possibly want?

I lol'd

To me, I always assumed that human beings in the Imperium have as much rights as the peoples of Nazi Germany.

btswanfury wrote:1) Freedom of worship
2) Freedom of speech
3) Freedom of assembly
4) Freedom of the press
5) Freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances

To build upon this..

1: Worship the Emperor or burn, pretty much.
2: As long as you're proved right in the end and you aren't supporting chaos or xenos. The Imperium does not like losers.
3: See above. The Imperium despises losers. A rebellion overthrowing a corrupt governor is acceptable as long as they provide adequate proof (which is very easy to find in hindsight ), submit to the Imperium, and pay taxes.
4: Depends on the planet, but generally speaking most of the time it's propaganda or tabloids.
5: As stated, it's inefficient. Oftentimes violence is the best way to solve your problems, and assassinations are an acceptable political tool... so long as you don't get caught.

I remember reading in 15 hours that the guardsmen from an Agriworld give up their rights as soon as they enlist, which of course suggests that the citizens of that particular world had rights at least.

Melissia wrote:
1: Worship the Emperor or burn, pretty much.

Not that there are many alternatives to the Emperor (in one form or the other) apart from Chaos or Xenos Gods. Unless a citizen got the the completely random idea of just starting their own religion. This would obviously come from a vision manifested from the Warp to subvert the Imperium, and thus should be discounted.

2: As long as you're proved right in the end and you aren't supporting chaos or xenos. The Imperium does not like losers.
3: See above. The Imperium despises losers. A rebellion overthrowing a corrupt governor is acceptable as long as they provide adequate proof (which is very easy to find in hindsight ), submit to the Imperium, and pay taxes.

Kinda like ours, donchathink?

4: Depends on the planet, but generally speaking most of the time it's propaganda or tabloids.
5: As stated, it's inefficient. Oftentimes violence is the best way to solve your problems, and assassinations are an acceptable political tool... so long as you don't get caught.

Kinda like ours, donchathink?

Perhaps we can look at the IoM in a way that its worlds are its citizens and its citizens as cells working to allow the planet to work and pay taxes as well as gaining more resources. Space Marines and IG would be like the police/antibiotics to enforce this law, evade taxes and you must be brought to ''justice''. just my two cents

Ok now, we agree that they have some right's - and some not. But what about other races?

Tau - definitely more rights than average Human.
Orks - fight until death....
Tyranids - "all serve the hive mind..." worse than Imperial propaganda.
Chaos - "all serve Chaos gods..." even worse than hive mind.
Eldar - can't enjoy in life or even die without fear to be swallow by god of pleasure.
Necron - "all serve Star Gods..." did I mention this already?

And I doubt that anyone but Tau and maybe Eldar have more freedom and civil rights than Imperial citizen. Am I right?

Brother Coa wrote:Ok now, we agree that they have some right's - and some not. But what about other races?

Tau - definitely more rights than average Human.
Orks - fight until death....
Tyranids - "all serve the hive mind..." worse than Imperial propaganda.
Chaos - "all serve Chaos gods..." even worse than hive mind.
Eldar - can't enjoy in life or even die without fear to be swallow by god of pleasure.
Necron - "all serve Star Gods..." did I mention this already?

And I doubt that anyone but Tau and maybe Eldar have more freedom and civil rights than Imperial citizen. Am I right?

You seem a bit confused about what rights are.

Tau - Precious little is known about them. What we do know suggests a highly regimented society. They have castes and everything focuses on the greater good - i.e. the giving up of the self for the whole. It's quite possible that this means that "rights" aren't tolerated (because they're "selfish" and therefore don't serve the Greater Good). But we don't reallly know that.
Orks - "fight until death..." Which means what, exactly, in regards to rights? Ork society focuses on doing whatever you want whenever you want. It's just that everyone in that society likes to fight. To an ork, the concept of rights would be foreign because it would imply that there are times that you don't do what you want.
Chaos - Chaos is all about freedom, and therefore you have plenty of "rights" in Chaotic society. But the thing to remember is that excess feeds the Chaos powers, and excess is basically willfulness taken to extremes. It's the use and abuse of rights that put most of the Chaotics into the Eye of Terror in the first place. Just because you can agitate for change doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do. Just because you can have sex with 500 people at the same time doesn't mean that it won't get you into serious trouble.
Eldar - Eldar can enjoy life and do. Otherwise they wouldn't continue living (since lack of enjoyment leads to misery). It's just that they control how they enjoy their life in order to avoid triggering that oh so problematic excess. Given that what little information we have regarding them suggests that they live in a post-scarcity society, I suspect that they enjoy quite a few rights - with one key exception regarding anything that might involve Chaos.

Tyranids and Necrons are largely puppets of their masters (C'Tan in the former case and the Hive Mind in the latter) and are as incapable of excercising true free will as they are of enjoying a pizza.

Eumerin wrote:

You seem a bit confused about what rights are.

Tau - Precious little is known about them. What we do know suggests a highly regimented society. They have castes and everything focuses on the greater good - i.e. the giving up of the self for the whole. It's quite possible that this means that "rights" aren't tolerated (because they're "selfish" and therefore don't serve the Greater Good). But we don't reallly know that.
Orks - "fight until death..." Which means what, exactly, in regards to rights? Ork society focuses on doing whatever you want whenever you want. It's just that everyone in that society likes to fight. To an ork, the concept of rights would be foreign because it would imply that there are times that you don't do what you want.
Chaos - Chaos is all about freedom, and therefore you have plenty of "rights" in Chaotic society. But the thing to remember is that excess feeds the Chaos powers, and excess is basically willfulness taken to extremes. It's the use and abuse of rights that put most of the Chaotics into the Eye of Terror in the first place. Just because you can agitate for change doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do. Just because you can have sex with 500 people at the same time doesn't mean that it won't get you into serious trouble.
Eldar - Eldar can enjoy life and do. Otherwise they wouldn't continue living (since lack of enjoyment leads to misery). It's just that they control how they enjoy their life in order to avoid triggering that oh so problematic excess. Given that what little information we have regarding them suggests that they live in a post-scarcity society, I suspect that they enjoy quite a few rights - with one key exception regarding anything that might involve Chaos.

Tyranids and Necrons are largely puppets of their masters (C'Tan in the former case and the Hive Mind in the latter) and are as incapable of excercising true free will as they are of enjoying a pizza.

Are you insane?

Tau - you are basically right, but the thing is: BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!!! What if Tau also have pubs, sport stadiums, cinemas... What if ordinary Tau citizen may have a car, house, go to vacation.... Compare them to USSR, Soviet citizens also worked for grater good, but they have a lot of freedom in their private life. And enjoy many entities of Soviet culture.
Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.
Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?
Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

Next time, please read a little more before you post something.

Brother Coa wrote:
Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?

I second that.
When we talk about rights, we should just forget about Chaos, nids, necrons and orks. We should focus on factions that present an organised form of society and civilisation: Imperium, Tau empire, eldars, and (maybe) DE.

Brother Coa wrote:Are you insane?

No. But it appears that you're more interested in arguing than reading what I wrote. And LOSE THE CAPS!!!!

(and exclamation points)

Tau - you are basically right, but the thing is: BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!!! What if Tau also have pubs, sport stadiums, cinemas... What if ordinary Tau citizen may have a car, house, go to vacation.... Compare them to USSR, Soviet citizens also worked for grater good, but they have a lot of freedom in their private life. And enjoy many entities of Soviet culture.

1.) I noted that we don't know much about the Tau.
2.) The former Soviet citizens might object to the idea that they had lots of "freedoms". They couldn't speak up. They lived in fear of their neighbors spying on them. They had to be wary of doing things like quoting Western news sources (I read about one guy who was arrested because he quoted a Western news article about the Iron Curtain. According to the powers that be, he was obviously guilty because the Iron Curtain was a Western notion.). Basically, off the top of my head I can't think of anything found in the US Bill of Rights that would apply to the citizens of the Soviet Union while it existed (not to say that they might not have enjoyed some of the rights found there; I just can't think of any off-hand).

Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

Nope. You're confusing ignorance and lack of desire with rights. Just because Orks don't want to do anything else doesn't mean that they don't have rights. If all I want to do is sit in my apartment all day long and play video games, does that somehow mean that my rights have been curtailed? Just because you don't excercise a right doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?

I never said that Chaos were "good guys". If you'd actually bothered to read what I wrote, then you'd note that the problem with Chaos is that it encourages too much freedom and not enough restraint. The problem with Chaos is the excess. Control and self-discipline are the key to overcoming Chaos. i.e. recognizing when it is not appropriate to excercise your rights.

Or in other words, Chaos is proof that doing whatever you want whenever you want can be very, very, very bad.

Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

Bzzt. Wrong!

The Eldar have problems because their emotional responses are so much more heightened than a human's are. Imagine the happiest moment of your life. Now multiply the happiness you felt by a factor of five. That is how an Eldar feels. And that's why they have the paths - to limit their emotional responses to "safe" levels.

Eldar are ruled less by enforced laws, but have huge amounts of social nuences and obligations.

Tau appear to be more lax in what you do in your spare time, but your role in life is pretty much predetermined. You are borne to be a janitor, no request for transfer...ever.

Tyranids have as much freedom as your fingernail does, freedom isn't applicable.

Chaos cultists are... complicated, you have all the freedom in the world, but become enslaved from the addictions you pick up on the way.

Eumerin wrote:1.) I noted that we don't know much about the Tau.
2.) The former Soviet citizens might object to the idea that they had lots of "freedoms". They couldn't speak up. They lived in fear of their neighbors spying on them. They had to be wary of doing things like quoting Western news sources (I read about one guy who was arrested because he quoted a Western news article about the Iron Curtain. According to the powers that be, he was obviously guilty because the Iron Curtain was a Western notion.). Basically, off the top of my head I can't think of anything found in the US Bill of Rights that would apply to the citizens of the Soviet Union while it existed (not to say that they might not have enjoyed some of the rights found there; I just can't think of any off-hand).

Nope. You're confusing ignorance and lack of desire with rights. Just because Orks don't want to do anything else doesn't mean that they don't have rights. If all I want to do is sit in my apartment all day long and play video games, does that somehow mean that my rights have been curtailed? Just because you don't excercise a right doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I never said that Chaos were "good guys". If you'd actually bothered to read what I wrote, then you'd note that the problem with Chaos is that it encourages too much freedom and not enough restraint. The problem with Chaos is the excess. Control and self-discipline are the key to overcoming Chaos. i.e. recognizing when it is not appropriate to excercise your rights.

Or in other words, Chaos is proof that doing whatever you want whenever you want can be very, very, very bad.

Bzzt. Wrong!

The Eldar have problems because their emotional responses are so much more heightened than a human's are. Imagine the happiest moment of your life. Now multiply the happiness you felt by a factor of five. That is how an Eldar feels. And that's why they have the paths - to limit their emotional responses to "safe" levels.

Ok now....

1. For Soviet citizens, yes. But I have lived in Communist Yugoslavia, and here you have rights to say everything you want, except maybe Tito - but everybody loved him so we will assume that none had nothing against him at that time. In SFRJ people have a great amount of rights, we had a good relationship with the west, we had our car industry, we could actually buy apartment at that time. And even the state was giving apartments to the "ordinary" people. We have some problems with corruption, but nothing serious. People here will remember communist times as "golden" times.
2. I will recognize Ork right of speech against other races. But as long as that do not say against warboss he will live. To have rights is to use them in real life. Give me evidence that some Ork let go the life of fighting to enjoy social right he was given with his birth. There is no evidence because Ork will always pick Axe above the life of luxury and pleasure. And again you and I are Humans, not Orks. And since Orks do not have constitution of any kind except listen to the biggest Ork around - I declare that they have no rights.
3. For Chaos you wright "Chaos is all about freedom, and therefore you have plenty of "rights" in Chaotic society". So they can get everything you want and in return they only ask of you to enjoy? That's how I understand what you wright en here. The main question about Chaos will forever be : what's with the soul? Soul is an essence of everybody, the peron in general if you want. If you give that, what do you become? Free citizen? The problem with Chaos is that what touches it corrupts, and many people go freely with that thing. Chaos destroy Human from within, it will give you right but in the end you will have nothing. You will only be a puppet and servant to the Chaos gods.
4. Give me evidence that Eldar can enjoy more than Humans. As I recall, Humans and Eldar share same physiology - and possibly have same ancestor (Old Ones?). So in general - they are like us. They just have much more faster metabolism that gives them nonhuman speed and immortality. And much more psykers than us. But in general they are like us - maybe even worse from the point of view. And you can take your "emotional responses are so much more heightened than a human's are" with you. Read their history and the birth of Slaanesh. His is Eldar mortal enemy, and they restrain themselves of any pleasure because even the slightest pleasure can recall him, and then he send his daemons after them.

Face it - Human have much more rights than any other race in 40k, even if he lives on a Imperial world.

You need to stop reading Old fluff.

Eldar and Humans do NOT share a common ancestor.

Brother Coa wrote:Are you insane?

Tau - you are basically right, but the thing is: BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!!! What if Tau also have pubs, sport stadiums, cinemas... What if ordinary Tau citizen may have a car, house, go to vacation.... Compare them to USSR, Soviet citizens also worked for grater good, but they have a lot of freedom in their private life. And enjoy many entities of Soviet culture.

A. you literally have no idea about what it was actually like to live in the USSR, maybe you should actually ask a Russian who lived through it (russians had more options that other USSR states) golags, spying on civilians, censorship, starvation and rationing, gas chambers on trucks, the kjb, book burnings and banned cultural items.

B. The tau are not communist.

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

Orks do what they want when they want as long as they can beat up anyone who disapproves, they are free. Orks want to fight, the only way to remove their 'civil rights' would be to stop them from fighting.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?

A. A misinterpretation of what the warp is and who first created GW and 40K, seeing as the creators weren't christian it is very doubtful that they put any 'moral storytelling' into the game.

B. Mortal minions of chaos are trapped in a storm of gak, but CSM however are free to do what they like when they like.

Brother Coa wrote:Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

The problem here is that you are comparing eldar to human. You also seem to think that to have freedom you must go to the extremes of excess, which isn't true. The eldar live in craftworlds by choice, they choose what they do. It is like you looking down on a buddist monk for have 'no freedom or rights' just because he chose a different path in life.

Brother Coa wrote:Next time, please read a little more before you post something.

Irony much

Brother Coa wrote:

Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

Say Whaaaa?? I am fairly sure the reason they don't 'enjoy' as much as what you have described is mainly to do with what happened last time they did, not the workings of a lesser race. Building onto that most Eldar probably don't hate humans, with the exception of Biel'Tan, because most Eldar see the Human race as little more than a barely evolved animals. That mainly comes from the fact that before mankind pulled themselves from the primordial sludge as multi-celled organisims the Eldar had an empire that spaned most of the known Galaxy. I would also say that before you go and pity them because they don't have the golden child of the Empra, the Eldar race have fought against the ruinious powers long before man and have cast back the Star Gods with their full host of Necrons in the War of Heaven.

The quote " An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbvarred and unguarded" springs to mind, Freedom of thought is not encouraged in the imperium, stagnation rules it takes along time to change anything and most new ideas are viewed with distaste and suspiscion at best and a flamer at worst, the imperium cant afford to be lax with its citizens as only through strength of purpose and unity can mankind survive.

that said some worlds are better than others and most common imperial citizens are so far below the raidar, and insignificant in the eyes of their superiors, that they can pretty much think what they want as long as they dint shout too loudly about it.

BluntmanDC wrote:

A. you literally have no idea about what it was actually like to live in the USSR, maybe you should actually ask a Russian who lived through it (russians had more options that other USSR states) golags, spying on civilians, censorship, starvation and rationing, gas chambers on trucks, the kjb, book burnings and banned cultural items.

B. The tau are not communist.

Orks do what they want when they want as long as they can beat up anyone who disapproves, they are free. Orks want to fight, the only way to remove their 'civil rights' would be to stop them from fighting.

A. A misinterpretation of what the warp is and who first created GW and 40K, seeing as the creators weren't christian it is very doubtful that they put any 'moral storytelling' into the game.

B. Mortal minions of chaos are trapped in a storm of gak, but CSM however are free to do what they like when they like.

The problem here is that you are comparing eldar to human. You also seem to think that to have freedom you must go to the extremes of excess, which isn't true. The eldar live in craftworlds by choice, they choose what they do. It is like you looking down on a buddist monk for have 'no freedom or rights' just because he chose a different path in life.

Irony much

Ok...I have to teach you to.

1.I have idea because I was raised in post-war Yugoslavia. And I am a historian to. I know that Soviets didn't allow much rights to their citizens. But they have some forms of rights. I talked with some Russians about that, they say that life was actually better in that times than now. Cutting up some rights brings to more stable society. They have some flaws in their history, but situation was much batter in 60 and 70. Tau are not communist? Please, the first tough of communism is that all are working toward the "Grater Good" of society. Tau are not communist, but they are based upon them, just as Space Marines are based on medieval knights.

2.Just the thing I was saying about Orks. They have no rights because they have no knowledge about them. To have rights on the first place you must have constitution to define them, each society has different traditions. And since the Orks have no constitution they have no civil rights. Only right they have is to do whatever they want with their lives until they die, by the hands of bigger Ork or in hand of someone else. Point is, Ork will never try to enjoy something else than the war.

3. Tell you what you want about the warp, it is pure evil. And CSM are insane, and do we let insane people walk all around us? We lock them up because insane people can't rationalize. Chaos minions don't have right because their gods are more concierned to rule the universe than to take care of their slaves.

4. I will quote lexicanum "It is suggested Eldar and Mankind share a common ancestor. There is little physical difference between Eldar and humans, and it is said the two races are genetically close enough that it is possible for them to interbreed." And then you tell me that Eldar and Humans are not the same. Same body, same physiology, small differences. But you are right. I cannot judge them if they choosing to live like this, than against what happened if some Eldar want to have a home on some planet? What if some Eldar want to have more things than they already have? Like Buddhist monk want to own a Landcruser? They cannot because they are teach not to ask for such a things, to know only service to their people. And what liberty is that? Maybe their leaders choose that, but what about individuals?

True irony indeed

From the eldar 4e codex, page 3:

"To an eldar, all of life's experience's are available to a heightened degree: the intellectual rewards of study, the exhilaration of battle, and every available sensation. This potential for joy is paralelled by an equal capacity to feel despair, anger and even hatred.

No creature, not even an eldar, can taste such rich fruits in an uncontrolled way without consequence. For an eldar to yield absolutely to such desires would destroy him."

There is a subtle but distinct line between saying that because the consequences are dire, that an eldar has no rights to said excess of experience, to saying that he does have the rights but would almost universally choose not to go to such excesses because of the consequences.

This is liking saying I do not have a right to smoke because I recognise that it may eventually kill me. There is no law against it, but its probably not sensible, even if it is enjoyable. Likewise the eldar have no prohibition on their actions, regards said excesses, save for that which they sensibly choose to impose on themselves.

I would say Eldar are the most free of all the races. They can choose whatever path in life they wish and conscription is very rare and only temporary.

Orks have no need for "rights" rights are put in place by society to protect individuals from being abused or taken advantage of, these concepts are utterly alien and inconceivable to an Ork, Ork kulture is built purely on strength, the strongest Orks are in charge and everyone else stays out of thier way and hops to it when given an order or they get squished.

Creatures genetically engineered to get satisfaction from war and fighting and little else certainly dont have a need for rights, may as well offer the Hive Mind Sundays off or the Necrons a dental plan

So Eldar won't embrace their right because they know consequences? Like riding a fast jetbike at top speed may cause death? Or drinking to much may cause pain and hallucination? Man, it sucked being an Eldar.

Conscription is not possible because one Imperial Hive world have more citizens than entire Eldar race. It's logical when you have no manpower you do not waste lives.

My point exactly, Orks know only for war ant that's that.

The main right that gives Human advantage over other races is right to chose with who to fight. Human can fight with Tau or Eldar or Chaos. Aliens and heretics will never be able to fight in Human army's, but a Human can always join army's other than Imperial. And Human to can chose his own path, except maybe becoming a Space Marine. Or planetary governor.

Brother Coa wrote:So Eldar won't embrace their right because they know consequences? Like riding a fast jetbike at top speed may cause death? Or drinking to much may cause pain and hallucination? Man, it sucked being an Eldar.

Conscription is not possible because one Imperial Hive world have more citizens than entire Eldar race. It's logical when you have no manpower you do not waste lives.

So? What does it matter? The point is when I'm 18 I don't get drafted into the army for a period of "until death".

The conscription idea is interesting insofar as I would be curious to know which race, given the war torn state of the 41st millenium, has many who choose not to fight. It seems that maybe only the humans have the numerical capacity to have any proportion of their population not directly at the pointy end of things. Even if such a luxury is not exercised, as you have pointed out.

I have read quite a few stuff, novels and articles about the IoM. And I always paid a lot attention to the bits concerning Imperial society. From there, I concluded that the IoM was (in most cases) what could be described as a "not so mean" dictatorship. In most cases, Imperial societies are organised under an oligarchy, a directory or a feudal system. It means that imperial citizens often don't choose their rulers or the laws they live under.

However, laws seem to be rarely utterly unfair and citizens seem to be (more or less) protected by the state. I found a good example of that in the novel "titanicus", by Dan Abnett. In this novel, a normal citizen requests an authorization to emigrate with his wife to a nearby forge world. This authorisation is granted by imperial authorities (after a complicated beaurocratic process), under certain conditions. The main condition was that his wife had to serve in the reserve of the pdf (yes the RESERVE of the pdf, not even the normal pdf) one month in a year. But since the character is a qualified worker, the government of the forge world pays for the family's traveling and relocating expenses.

I think this example illustrates well the civil rights in the IoM. These rights are often controlled or even limited by imperial law, but the governement is not unfair and (to some extent) looks after its citizens.
I suppose the same situation applies for the Tau empire and their greater good oligarchy. I think eldar enjoy more limited rights since their race is on the verge of extinction and only survives through important social sacrifices (self-discipline, conscription, etc...).

The thing about Eldar, is that they do have rights, more then most Imperial Citivens anyway. You want to create beautiful things you become an Artisan, You want to fight for your Craftworld, you join an Aspect Shrine, You want to explore your Psychic abilities (rare for any Imperial Citizen to do this) you become a seer. In this way the Eldar explore each part of their natures without taking it over the top by murdering everyone in their path because they're "exercising their rights" And if an Eldar wants to enjoy a time away from the lifestyle of the Craftworld, he or she becomes an outcast, travel a bit, raids some starships, looks for treasure, or snipes people between the eyes. I don't know about you but I would gladely be an Eldar Craftworld inhabitant rather then an Imperial Citizen.