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so hold on let me take this all in. i am pretty sure we all have page 42 of the rulebook in front of us now (or maybe just me lol). this is a real grey area, yes two different special weapons NEVER get the +1A and you have to choose which weapon to use (like with calger do you want S4 I5 attacks OR S8 I1 attacks). but then in the space marine codex it does say that they are a maching PAIR of power fists which would be "two of the same special weapon" and would get the +1A. But that would then mean you would have to choose either 4 attacks at S4 I5 (with the power sword) OR 5 attacks at S8 I1 (with the pair of power fists). But that can't be right Because I can see no reason to ever use the power sword? ouch i've taxed my brain now so must rest for a minute lol. whats your thoughts on that? does it make sence or am i talking rubbish?

No, you're right. If he's attacking with a matched pair of powerfists he is wielding two of the same Special CCW and gets the bonus attack.

Now and forever.

I don't know why he has a power sword either.

Monster Rain wrote:No, you're right. If he's attacking with a matched pair of powerfists he is wielding two of the same Special CCW and gets the bonus attack.

Now and forever.

I don't know why he has a power sword either.

he's got one in case he's got one wound left and is in base to base with a 5th edition chaplain and needs to whoop his butt at initiative 5 (which the chaplain no longer has).

thanks Monster Rain & warboss i'm gonna stick with that i think. wow this is my first subject that has caused debate (normal answers go something like "yes/no check page ** of your rulebook mate lol)

No problem, buddy.

It's what I'm here for.

It is mostly useful so that you know this issue can cause issue. Now, at least, you get a good view of what both sides can bring up.

Monster Rain wrote:No, you're right. If he's attacking with a matched pair of powerfists he is wielding two of the same Special CCW and gets the bonus attack.

Now and forever.

I don't know why he has a power sword either.

Yet he had to choose which special CCW to use, and therefore never gets the extra attack.

You cannot argue your way out of this simple fact: in order to use the powerfists he MUST HAVE CHOSEN to NOT use the power sword.

Gee. That seems like a choice to me! And what do choices do? Stop you getting the bonus attack. In fact you NEVER gain the bonus attack.

And yet at Initiative 1 he's attacking with 2 identical special weapons, which by RAW means he gets a bonus.

Monster Rain wrote:And yet at Initiative 1 he's attacking with 2 identical special weapons, which by RAW means he gets a bonus.

Unless you have to chose them.

Monster Rain wrote:And yet at Initiative 1 he's attacking with 2 identical special weapons, which by RAW means he gets a bonus.

No, it does not. Because in order to attack at I1 he had to choose not to attack with a power sword at I5

gee, there's that damn "choice" appearing again. What's that - you NEVER gain the bonus if you had to make a choice? And you're trying to say he gets the bonus?

Nope, you dont. Your RAW is flawed, as has been pointed out repeatedly. The fact you continue to pretend the choice never happened is kinda amusing. Fingers in ears time i assume?

If you have to choose between 2 weapons you have a point.

When you're talking about possessing 3 weapons it's a different situation.

We have rules for using one and two weapons. If a model has three weapons we must pick two weapons before we continue. Done that? cool now we look on the list to see the effect of two weapons.

You only ever trigger fighting with two different special weapons. If you are using 2 different special weapons; at this point you would have to choose again for the effect you want.

This is the only way those rules work. Otherwise a model with more then two weapons cannot use any as there are no rules for that.

(edits for typos, grammar and spelling)

Not really, as you still have chosen not to use the sword. You made a choice between using the sword, or using a powerfist. Meaning you NEVER gain the extra attack, even if by the init stat that you actually attack at you would, without having made the choice, have gained an attack.

2 is also a subset of 3. Every model with 3+ weapons is also a model with 2 weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not really, as you still have chosen not to use the sword. You made a choice between using the sword, or using a powerfist. Meaning you NEVER gain the extra attack, even if by the init stat that you actually attack at you would, without having made the choice, have gained an attack.

2 is also a subset of 3. Every model with 3+ weapons is also a model with 2 weapons.

Firstly that would not be two different special weapons that would be three different special weapons


Its a list of effects. You can only use that list if you are fighting with 2 weapons. If you haven't singled down X number of weapons to 2 then go no further. Really. Once you have selected two close combat weapons, read the effect of having those two. Do not read all of them as you can only have one choice.

Its the same as a model with 2 power weapons and two close combat weapons. You'd look at the one choice made; you wouldn't give him +3 attacks for have two of the same special weapon, a special and normal weapon, and a pair of normal weapons.

So you're saying you can choose between two special weapons and then choose again? Because no rules allow that....

MekanobSamael wrote:The only way he gets any extra attacks is if you think of it this way: he isn't carrying three discreet special weapons. He's carrying a power sword and the "Gauntlets of Ultramar." He has to choose which of his two special weapons to use. When he uses the power sword, his attacks ignore armor saves, and when he uses the Gauntlets of Ultramar, he has two matched power fists, granting +1 A. Even that's a little bit shaky, though, and in a formal setting, I'd rule that he can't get extra attacks, for the reasons mentioned above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:tri wins.

Also, epic win!

Signed, Rule as written AND intended(hopefully)!

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you're saying you can choose between two special weapons and then choose again? Because no rules allow that....

No rules for using more then 2 weapons ... Simplest answer is pick 2 weapons to use, since it has none of the down sides of using all the rules.

Or in order to have chosen the powerfist you have chosen not to use the power sword, and have made a choice.

Follows all the rules then - you have chosen what weapon to use. It also is the most restrictive.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or in order to have chosen the powerfist you have chosen not to use the power sword, and have made a choice.

Follows all the rules then - you have chosen what weapon to use. It also is the most restrictive.

Powerfists ... Its very simple you're using part of a bigger rule; using 2 close combat weapons. Its all very well jumping to the part about choosing but you have to go through the rest of the rule. My way you bend the rule slightly and keep in spirt of what is written. Yours we ignore that every single part is 2.

End of the day you can Use 2 of 3 weapons. You cannot Use 3 weapons. And if we're creating a house rule he's god damn keeping the extra attack.

RAW were written for models with 2 weapons to use. Just because he has 3 doesn't mean he is using them. All the lawyers out there trying to stifle Marneus obvious second power fist (I guess it's just for show?) because he HAS three weapons, nowhere in the codex or the rulebook does he say he has to (or can) use all 3 of them. He is using 2 weapons. As such the rules apply on page 42 of the 2 weapons he is using. How is that complicated? Oh yeah, rules lawyers and grammar nazis who have to look for whatever little edge they can get. He obviously has 2 powerfists for a reason.

If the nitpicking lawyers want to go with this ruling, then nobody gets an extra attack, because they are all combining whatever weapons combo with the unlisted but automatically included ccw 'rifle-butt/boot/teeth/etc' that all models are assumed to have.

-if you need a judge's ruling and a page number referance on the parameters of what constitutes being an ass, you are being an ass.

yeenoghu wrote: -if you need a judge's ruling and a page number reference on the parameters of what constitutes being an ass, you are being an ass.

while agree with the sentiment this is a rules debate forum ... we are not here to get along but to debate the rules. Thank you games workshop, for giving us so much to debate.

Why is it that grammar is always to blame when the rules cannot be used?

yeenoghu wrote:Lots of spam. . .He obviously has 2 powerfists for a reason. More spam.

Why do the biker marines have shotguns?

I figured it was because he had always been described as such. Or at least for a few editions.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except models with 3 CCW also have 2 CCW (same as you can roll doubles when rolling 3+ dice, for example) and so the rule applies....

Generally it's safer to take the least advantageous interpretation of a rule when there is some debate.

Except it doesn't matter if they have 2 different special weapons, It only matters what they are using/wielding.


Using/wielding the powerfist and power sword to make your attacks, no Bonus attack.

Using/wielding dual powerfists nest you a +1 attack as normal for 2 powerfists.

Except it DOES matter if they are equipped with two different special weapons, regardless of what else they might have (since two is a subset of any larger number, so if you have 3 or more, you always have 2.........). What tells you how to determine which special weapon they use in combat? The same rule that says they 'never' get the bonus attack. So if you have to choose which special close combat weapon to use, you NEVER get the bouns attack.

As fun as it is, this doesn't appear to be going anywhere new... nor is it likely to until GW get around the FAQing it.

So, since all of the usual points appear to have been made, I think it's time to move on.