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mikhaila wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:.Snip.No, that's not how most tournaments run it.Snip.

How does page 92 disagree with you?

re-read P.92 it says most tournaments run it as full disclosure.


you need to measure to "to work out a rules area of effect" what does this mean exactly?

well the BRB makes no reference how/when you "work out a rules area of effect" is it when something moves into range? it does not say.

Thus the unclear RAW.

You're stringing a couple of things together, and coming to a wrong conclusion. Page 92 talks about most tournaments using full disclosure. (Which may or may not be be true, btw, when was the last time GW talked to all the guys running tournaments?). You've made the decision that 'full disclosure' includes measuring the effects of the KFF. No one else is agreeing with you.

The rulebook doesn't back you up.

Measuring the effects of a KFF before deciding which unit to shoot at, is no different than measuring weapons ranges before shooting, or charge ranges before declaring a charge.

It seems people need to read up on what full disclosure means.

The rulebook does not back anyone up in this situation.

the BRB makes no reference how/when you "work out a rules area of effect"

Unclear.

DeathReaper wrote:It seems people need to read up on what full disclosure means.

Full disclosure, in the context of the paragraph in which it is used in the codex, means telling your opponent what your army consists of.

Distances within a game are not mentioned at all in that paragraph. Also, the Ork player is not keeping any secrets or using a secret trump card in this scenario (which is the goal of the paragraph, afterall) since the Ork player does not know if his vehicle is within range of the KFF either.

So then how do you "work out a rules area of effect"?

the BRB does not say, so we have to interpret it.

I say that when a new unit comes into range you need to "work out a rules area of effect" since they are now affected by a new rule.

Others may play this differently and I can see why they do. (I may or may not agree with that interpretation)

however you should agree that "work out a rules area of effect" is at least undefined and unclear to some.

somerandomdude wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It seems people need to read up on what full disclosure means.

Full disclosure, in the context of the paragraph in which it is used in the codex, means telling your opponent what your army consists of.

Distances within a game are not mentioned at all in that paragraph. Also, the Ork player is not keeping any secrets or using a secret trump card in this scenario (which is the goal of the paragraph, afterall) since the Ork player does not know if his vehicle is within range of the KFF either.

Also what things are in what transports. If the Ork player does know because he measured, then by full disclosure he should tell his opponent. Just like when he measures weapon ranges when shooting he should tell his opponent what the range was. If he knows something concrete from the table he should tell his opponent.

But if he knows because he measured, and the wagon hasn't been shot at yet, then the Ork player cheated. Nothing gave him permission to measure, and nothing gives you permission to make him measure.

EDIT: You'd work out when it was in range when it became relevant. A KFF isn't relevant until someone is trying to work out if he's in cover. And he doesn't need to work out if he's in cover until you've put a wound on him.

DeathReaper wrote:So then how do you "work out a rules area of effect"?

the BRB does not say, so we have to interpret it.

I say that when a new unit comes into range you need to "work out a rules area of effect" since they are now affected by a new rule.

Others may play this differently and I can see why they do. (I may or may not agree with that interpretation)

however you should agree that "work out a rules area of effect" is at least undefined and unclear to some.

... let me think ... might it be you have to measure when you claim that you'll be taking a cover save generated by the kustom force field? Why yes this would be the only time you can measure it, as this is the only time you need to know.

DeathReaper wrote:I say that when a new unit comes into range you need to "work out a rules area of effect" since they are now affected by a new rule.

In the given example the unit is only affected by the rule once they have been shot at. The opponent has no more right to know how far away a unit is in this example than if they are in assault range before declaring.

As above.

the only time you need to know if the KFF is in range is when determining if any saves are applicable. Measuring before then is against the rules

DR - pages 92 and 3 disagree with you.

DeathReaper wrote:I say that when a new unit comes into range you need to "work out a rules area of effect" since they are now affected by a new rule.

The problem with that is that you won't know if they're in range unless you measure, and you can't measure unless the rules tell you to, and you (in this situation) can only measure to work out a rule's area of effect, and you can't do that unless you get someone in range, and you won't know if they're in range unless you measure, and...

No, the range of that rule is only relevant when that rule could actually affect something. Since the effects of KFF are only in the shooting phase, and only when a unit is being shot at, and only THEN if that unit takes a wound/vehicle damage... then THAT'S when you can measure.

It would be a serious problem to continually measure the distance around a kff to at all times know where the "bubble" is located. Because it would also tell you other distances that could be used to guage things like assault ranges or shooting distances. If someone at one of our tourneys kept measuring the 6" bubble around his kff he would receive a warning, and if he kept measuring he would be disqualified.

We can measure when the rules call for measurement, if a rule isnt being triggered we cant. What would be the difference from premeasuring to check the kff range during movement to premeasuring the charge range to likely targets during the same movement phase if this could be done?


Sliggoth

If anyone has a page Number explaining what "work out a rules area of effect" covers, please post cause I cant find anything regarding what this means in the BRB.

If there is no reference then it falls to interpretation.

DR - the KFF has no effect until after you have caused a wound / hit. SO you work out the area of effect at that point, and at no other.

Not tricky

You're actually the one who coined "work out a rules area of effect" so I don't understand why you'd a) Use it if you don't have a reference or b) expect others to find the reference for you =\

Funnily enough the whole rules part is contained on the infamous page 3 (the page atfer the one that says you're going to need dice and tmir). It says "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it" if you're confused as to "in general" it means 'without explicit permission' (see flash gitz) and ' the rules calling for it' means that one is trying to claim something (re-rolls, cover, fnp, fc) and your opponent feels that 'naaaah you're not close enough', measure, confirm that the squad is with-in 6" and take x,y or z. Otherwise there is simply no demand or need to measure any distance beyond "I want to know how far that is." and one's not allowed to measure unless the rules call for it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - the KFF has no effect until after you have caused a wound / hit. SO you work out the area of effect at that point, and at no other.

Not tricky

Page number how to "work out the area of effect"?

ChrisCP wrote:You're actually the one who coined "work out a rules area of effect" so I don't understand why you'd a) Use it if you don't have a reference or b) expect others to find the reference for you =\

Funnily enough the whole rules part is contained on the infamous page 3 (the page atfer the one that says you're going to need dice and tmir). It says "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it" if you're confused as to "in general" it means 'without explicit permission' (see flash gitz) and ' the rules calling for it' means that one is trying to claim something (re-rolls, cover, fnp, fc) and your opponent feels that 'naaaah you're not close enough', measure, confirm that the squad is with-in 6" and take x,y or z. Otherwise there is simply no demand or need to measure any distance beyond "I want to know how far that is." and one's not allowed to measure unless the rules call for it.

Please read the whole thread.

From my earlier post:

DeathReaper wrote:
if you read P.3 you are allowed to measure a KFF's area.

"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (E.G. ... to work out a rules area of effect...).

permission to measure the KFF is right there.

I coined no phrase, I just gave a page number and quoted the BRB on that one.

I contend that "work out a rules area of effect" means that anytime a new unit is encompassed by the KFF that is "work[ing] out a rules area of effect" since the unit is subject to the new rule.

because this is up to interpretation it is tricky. Unless you have a Page Number explaining what "work out a rules area of effect" covers

... but you don't need to know what's covered by the KF till you need to take cover saves.

In the movement phase do you need to know if you'll be in range to shoot or charge? NO
In the shoot phase do you need to know if your in charge range? No (though once you've shot you should know)

You measure when the rules ask for it. Need a cover save then you check. No other time can ether player check.

DeathReaper wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
if you read P.3 you are allowed to measure a KFF's area.
"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (E.G. ... to work out a rules area of effect...).
permission to measure the KFF is right there.

There's your post/\ See how you used it first and had the page number. So why would you need other people to find it?

I broke it down into the two parts for you.
"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it" and "the rules calling for it".
Again; In general > Without explicit permission, the rules calling for it > trying to claim something.

If you are not trying to claim something you have no reason to measure a KFF, saunguine or like bubble. And as such have no permission. But,

DeathReaper wrote:
"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (E.G. ... to work out a rules area of effect...). Permission to measure the KFF is right there.

while being permission to measure the KFF isn't permission to do it whenever one would like - one can only do it when the rules call for it.

You measure only once the shot has been taken and you need to see if you are in KFF for a save.

If the person facing the KFF was allowed to measure before firing (to see wether or not his target got a save) then the Ork player would be allowed to measure in his own movement fase to see if the position in which the KFF was placed gave the cover save to the vehicles he wanted.

And that would lead to alot of premeasuring..

....NVM .... need more caffeine.

What?
I think we are in agreement. But I cant understand your post...

DR - I assume you are in wilful misunderstanding now.

The only time you need to *know* if the KFF has any effect is after a wounding hit / vehicle-AP hit has been scored. At no other time is it relevant, therefore this is the only time you can measure.

The way Deathreaper is interpreting it, Tyranid players would constantly be measuring 12" in all directions from Synapse models, Eldar players would be measuring 12" in all directions at all times from the Avatars, BA players would be measuring 6" in all directions all game long for their Sanguinary Priests, IG players measuring 12" from their company standard all game long, BA and SW players measuring constantly 6" from a model which cast SoS or Storm Caller, etc.

That's not how it works.

You only measure when it's "called for", as in, when you are explicitly TOLD to by a rule or implicitly MUST do so in order to resolve that rule.

To resolve the KFF you must measure to/from it just before taking the save, in order to know whether it may legally be used. Nothing in the rule either implicitly requires or implicitly requires you to measure at any other time