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Manchu wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I just know that even customers with battered spouse syndrome like us still have a point where we'll say no.

You might even say there is a point where we won't be able to say yes. Thanks to internet sales pricing, some of us have been able to ignore the fact that it has already come to this.

I've reached,or at least partialy reached ,that point some time ago,as 90% of my purchases/acquisitions of GW minis come from 3rd party sources/trades,purchasing directly from GW only when no other options (other than not purchasing) remain.
And "not purchasing" becomes more and more of the option I go with,when DE were released,I toyed with the idea of picking some up,as I had at one time owned a DE army,but after some consideration opted against doing so as I can not justify supporting GW any more than on the barest level.
GW may or may not be pricing themselves out of the market...that remains to be seen,but...as for long term costumers,who enjoy doing business with them...they seem to be loosing out in that department.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Over the past few years since I got back into the hobby I have noticed only one trend in the pricing policy that GW works under: upwards.
L. Wrex

Just to frame the debate a little better, what hobby / product / service is getting cheaper with each passing year?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I don't understand why people complain. GW are a business. They are not a charity and need to make a profit.

Yes, they do need to make a profit. But it does not follow that they need to keep raising prices like they do to make that profit.

You're essentially asking two different questions:

1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.

2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.

First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?

Or by Market do we mean "Higher than what competitiors sell similar items for." If it's this one, then I'd have to say that the Market is pretty much keeping up with GW. Privateer and Battlefront have both been raising prices right along with GW. Board games, RPG's, and pretty damn much everything else is going up yearly. I see it on my invoices each week, and my yearly summaries. And it's all going up faster than inflation.

No real answers from me, just trying to clarify the original question.)

I can see GW saying: "Hey, good news everyone! We lowered the price of the space marine tactical kit a couple dollars because we _______________" in a couple of years. Eventually, even they'll realize they've gone too far, and they'll work their way back to reasonable prices. I hope.

If the Chaos Space marine kit ever hits 45$, I'll stop playing. That's where I draw the line

I'd be shocked to see a price reduction. Human beings landing on Mars tomorrow would be less surprising.

Manchu wrote:I'd be shocked to see a price reduction. Human beings landing on Mars tomorrow would be less surprising.

Martians landing on human beings tomorrow would be less shocking.

Yes indeed. I think the very most we could expect is longer periods between increases or smaller increases.

Vandil wrote:I purchase only what I have to from GW directly. I can almost always find the same product from another retailer for 30-40% off. There is a huge used market as well.

About the only thing I buy from GW regularly would be paints and after they changed the pots over to the new won't stay open style I'm not buying those anymore either.

Yes, I'm surprised no one else has mentioned about the new paint pots either - bloody awful, I'm not sure how many fractions of a cent they are saving by not having the 'kink' in the plastic that let it sit open, are things really that borderline? Easy cure is a match stick or thin piece of stick to prop it open, but that was something that you didn't have to worry about before (and just another reason to use a different model range).

Redbeard - Yes, my comment was directed more to the late 60's and 70's, when the 'big 4' (most notably Honda) practically destroyed the British motorbike industry. The other foreign makers have had to up their game considerably since I think, although on pure engineering terms and reliability the Japanese stuff still has the edge.

I don't know.... maybe GW would have a sense of humour about it "hey dudes. We realized you guys are always complaining about our prices, so we lowered them. enjoy!"

Samus_aran 115 wrote:I don't know.... maybe GW would have a sense of humour about it "hey dudes. We realized you guys are always complaining about our prices, so we lowered them. enjoy!"

While I appreciate your optimism,I honestly believe your more likely to see the Pope dance the Jitter Bug while wearing a purple top hat across Vatican square on Easter Sunday morning.

Pacific wrote:Like I said, I am frankly amazed this isn't an issue which hasn't been raised elsewhere, and that it's an avenue GW has decided to follow.

Interesting points which I've never seen raised before. We can only assume that no such complaint has ever been made, but putting aside real risks, there's always the possibility of false accusations which are equally damaging to anyone working with children. GWs frequently resemble day care centres, you have to query at what point that staff would have to be vetted to work in the stores.

It must be hell running a single man store though, how do they prevent shop lifting? As soon as you turn your back to help little Jimmy paint his space marine there are others clearing off the shelves. With multiple staff stores it's safer for everyone, staff, kids and the stock on the shelves.

mikhaila wrote:You're essentially asking two different questions:

1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.

2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.

First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?

Those two questions aren't entirely universal. 'Losing customers' is very generic, it can relate to existing customers not coming back, or potential customers not investing, either way it is a customer 'lost'. The market I was referring to was gamers in general, both new and old.

Competitors may well price-match close to, or just below GW, but to offset this the scale of their games is much smaller. How many models do you need for a game of Malifaux? 10-ish? How many models do you need for a 1500 point game of 40k? 50? 60? Over 100 dependant upon the army? So not only are you now charging more than your competitor on a model:model basis, but you demand that your customers buy more models in order to even play the game in the first place.

L. Wrex

I know this image has been around forever but it needs to come up everytime somebody makes the Porsche of wargamming thing (even in jest)...




Is GW pricing themselves out of the market? As Mikhaila mentioned, not really. The main competitor at the moment is pretty much keeping pace; however, this may change as companies like Mantic get going and expand their lines while remaining well under the GW price point.

I don't need to drive a porsche when something cheaper does the same thing and looks just as good from a distance. As a gamer, I don't need a work of art on the table, I need a bunch of plastic army men that are imagination aids and represent fictional death on a fictional battlefield.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Competitors may well price-match close to, or just below GW, but to offset this the scale of their games is much smaller. How many models do you need for a game of Malifaux? 10-ish? How many models do you need for a 1500 point game of 40k? 50? 60? Over 100 dependant upon the army? So not only are you now charging more than your competitor on a model:model basis, but you demand that your customers buy more models in order to even play the game in the first place.

I've seen people play with the starter set just fine. I've seen people enjoy 500 point games, and Adepticon even has a combat patrol tournament lined up. People want to play with more models, no one is forcing them to.

Mastiff wrote:
Just to frame the debate a little better, what hobby / product / service is getting cheaper with each passing year?

As a hobby, I dabble in the stock market.... the world kind of hit the reset button a couple of years ago. Citibank @ $1/share, yes please. So yes, things don't necessarily go up, always. Houses right now are an absolute steal in many areas of the U.S; they're building new homes in my area for $50/square foot or less. Apple Barrel paint prices have been pretty stagnant (in my opinion) for years.

The real problem is that GW hasn't been forced to "market adjust" because they're very good at keeping up with recruitment of new players. If that fails, and it just might with reductions in the number of corporate stores and the new 1-man operations, they might be forced to some lean times. That'd be a shame since I own stock but, meh; I bought low enough I'd still make some money if I had to sell.

Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period. GW is maximizing their profits by going plastic and using cheap labor in Asia to produce their product. The new box sets are very nice too, you get so many options, and extra bitz that by the time you build what you paid for, you can practically build even more by piecing all the bits together.

I have taken a 15 year break from gaming. Just got back into it. All my 2nd Ed armies for 40K and 4th Ed fantasy are illegal. Back then they did not do army list structures, you could field a whole army of Terminators if you wanted to, and many people did. So I have had to reinvest some money in some newer models. I buy new from my local store, to support the local gaming store. I will never buy direct from GW, I will always buy from my local gaming store to ensure it gets it's cut and can stay in business. Then I also buy off ebay/craigslist/etc.

I find some single models to be a bit over priced. Like I am not going to buy the New Slaan mage priest model. Mainly because it is like $45 or abuts, and I already own 2 Slaan Mage priest models from back in the day, which you can still use in today's games. However, the new box sets of lizardmen troops are great. I like the models and I like all the bits and pieces, but this is also due to the fact I can use the new bits on the older models I already own as well to convert them and update them too.

I bought a Space Wolves battalion box and converted all my old Space Wolf models and my generic Marines to have all the cool space wolf bits on them now. I tried to figure out the cost per a model versus the old 2 model blister pack business model from back in the day. I paid $80 for 26 miniatures in my boxed set. That is roughly 3.25 per a miniature, if I take out the fact I also got a drop pod. If I take the $85 minus the cost of the drop pod, then divide by 26 the cost per a miniature goes down. Back in the day I would pay $7.50 for 2 models in a blister pack, which is also $3.25 per a miniature. Of course now they are plastic and back then they were pewter. I remember some blister packs were $10 for two models as well. I don't think the cost of certain things has really skyrocketed all that much high, but rather just scaled for inflation.

$60 is the standard price for a new video game these days. I can never really remember every paying less than $40 for a game anyway. I think by the time I was buying my own video games (allowance, summer jobs, etc) I think they were standard pried at $39.99. That would have been back in the early 90s. Now in 2011, 20 years later they have gone up $20. That isn't all that bad.

Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation.

This is not actually true. There are deflationary times (for example, 2H2008 thru Q4 2009) when the cost of everything generally went down.

The trend over time is higher, and this is actually healthy, but by any estimate GW prices have outstripped inflation.

Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period.

I think most people do appreciate that prices do generally increase with time, but GW prices typically rise well above inflation.

Mastiff wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Over the past few years since I got back into the hobby I have noticed only one trend in the pricing policy that GW works under: upwards.
L. Wrex

Just to frame the debate a little better, what hobby / product / service is getting cheaper with each passing year?

Electronic goods of all types, most bulk commodities, music, film and TV, air travel, clothes.

There are annual fluctuations but if you do a regression analysis of price points, adjusted for inflation over the past 100 or 50 years, you will see lots of things that get cheaper.

Pacific wrote:Although you can't really draw comparisons with motorcycles aka_mythos - although some of the other manufacturers are excellent (and I think in some cases, beating, GW) the fact that Harley Davidson took such a kicking from the Jap machinery (in the same way that the UK industry suffered) was because the latter was produced to a better standard.

I realize the quality was there and had alot to do with it, but those predominantly Japanese machines were $1000+ cheaper for something effectively the same. Superior product at a cheaper cost... point someone will eventually come along and steal GW's market share.

I have never bought from GW direct, I always wait for a sale or buy from ebay.

I think GW suffers from a demographics targeting problem.

Their current pricing scheme and constant raises make it very hard for new, and especially young, players to enter this hobby. I knew of Warhammer when I was like 7, but could never start until college, and prices on stuff have increased by 15-40% since then.

While it's generally sort of a sore issue for dedicated veteran players, it's also probably not going to drive us out.

However, GW, through their marketing and design efforts, seems to be very actively courting young players. Players who just can't afford the hobby and who, at least in my experiences, really don't make up the core of this hobby, but rather it's the 20 and 30somethings that do. I think the average age of players at my current store is 24-26, and at the big store across town its probably closer to 30.

Of the dozen or so stores/clubs I've played at, I can count the number of players under 18 I've seen on one or two hands, and I've only seen really two or three under 18 players who bought more than a couple boxes and routinely played. Other than that it's all college aged players and older.

So GW keeps targeting a young demographic that can't afford entry and increasing prices, yet most of their playerbase (again, in *my* experience) is significantly older.

I have a feeling if GW targeted said slightly older demographic with their design and marketing efforts instead of the tweens, they may have better success, though again that's simply through my experiences in game stores and clubs.

mikhaila wrote:You're essentially asking two different questions:

1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.

2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.

First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?

Or by Market do we mean "Higher than what competitiors sell similar items for." If it's this one, then I'd have to say that the Market is pretty much keeping up with GW. Privateer and Battlefront have both been raising prices right along with GW. Board games, RPG's, and pretty damn much everything else is going up yearly. I see it on my invoices each week, and my yearly summaries. And it's all going up faster than inflation.

No real answers from me, just trying to clarify the original question.)

I think when it comes to the tabletop wargame market, GW is so large that its guiding the market. Other companies hold out bumping up their prices till GW does because they can't afford the market loss in bring their pricing up before GW. The industry has largely shifted away from competitive pricing and moved to peer pricing model; that means while material and production cost contribute to the general pricing the predominant force in setting sales price is a products similarity to another product. Its the notion of "if GW can get so much for "X" so can I" or close to it.

On your point 1)... I think the answer is clearly yes, but the inelastic demand makes it really hard to tell where people drop out of the market. Its a market that people tend to fight tooth and nail to stay in but only when it gets too painful do they fall out.

On question 2)... "are they pricing themselves out of the market?"- I don't believe they've gone so far but each year they edge closer. Rather than look at the pricing of anyone thing, we really have to look at the price of the minimum product to enjoy the hobby and what that costs. There was a time you could play standard sized games for under $100. Now you're lucky to play for under $400. GW's moved from competing with the toys and games you find in Toy's R US to competing with electronics and video game systems. That is a drastic financial shift.

Personally I think 90% of GW's pricing in sound; exacerbation comes mostly from those items that are clearly overpriced, or who's quality is abnormally low, but GW still wants the same amount as if it were their best. Thats a result of GW's category pricing that forces a product that should cost say $9.50 upto $12, just because its the nearest category (just an example without remembering their exact price blocks). I'm fine with the highend pricing of GW's products in general, but it needs to have some low end items as well to soften the entry into the hobby. Battle for Black Reach was an example of that, which unfortunately demanded a price jump because it was too good... but the notion of it was sound. GW just needs an institutionalized means of lessening the blow for people getting into the hobby or starting a new army... an incentive for further investment.


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Vaktathi wrote:
So GW keeps targeting a young demographic that can't afford entry and increasing prices, yet most of their playerbase (again, in *my* experience) is significantly older.

I have a feeling if GW targeted said slightly older demographic with their design and marketing efforts instead of the tweens, they may have better success, though again that's simply through my experiences in game stores and clubs.

Agreed. When I was 8 or so is when I first bought 40k models... but never really played till I was 13 or so. At that point I remember half the people playing were my age or close to it... with people ranging upwards of that. Now when I play, there tends to be one or two 13 year olds, a hand full of older teens, and a large number of college age players... and that in a more affluent area than I grew up. I would say in general the average age is getting higher, which shows a true disconnect.

Its a bit of GW trying to have it both ways. Kids products at adult prices.

MmmHmmm...

I see your argument and my retort is...



I like smurfberries.

Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.

I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.

Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period.

I think most people do appreciate that prices do generally increase with time, but GW prices typically rise well above inflation.

Yes, and technology actually get cheaper the older it is because it can be mass produced more efficiently. Just look at the release prices of the all the video game consoles, and how the price went down over time. Or even the cost of a computer. In the 1980s it was common to drop $3,000 on a computer, now you can get a basic computer for a few hundred bucks. New technology comes out often enough to keep those prices high though.

I just bought a new HDTV last year. 46" 1080P LED HDTV Samsung and I paid $1500 for it. 2 years ago that same spec TV would have been more like $3,000.

So, in reality now that GW has gone from sculpting all their models to using 3D modeling software and factories to mass produce their plastic products, their overall overhead costs should actually probably go down, but they are also in business to make money.

I just purchased $300 of lizardmen from a local gamer. It was about $750 dollars retail of stuff. If I were to go in and buy all the stuff he sold me today, that is what it would have cost. Now, I already had like a 3,000 point Lizardmen army sitting in my parent's basement from forever ago. So now I have like a 8,000+ point army and will never have to buy a single lizardmen model again.

So, now I am looking at building my next Army and I want to do Ogre Kingdoms, mainly because their models are awesome and that Ogre Ninja model is the awesomest. I also need to add a few things to my 40K armies I have too, but those would be a complete 2,000 point army if I add in a box of basic troops for each of them. Since back in the day when I originally played there were no army lists, so my armies now are sort of illegal (except for my lizards and space wolves). Look at the Ogre models I do find them pretty expensive for what you get. However, they are pretty pricey.

I agree that GW could come down in price and in fact still make profit. However, they may not make more sales. I think that is the biggest factor. Their business model is steady, but it is hard for me to gauge. Do they get that many new customers every year?

As a monopoly, I don't think the GW price is high enough. I would increase more if I am the CEO.

Kilkrazy wrote:Very hard to say. About twice a year GW have a price increase and there is a storm of protest on sites like Dakka.

Then we all go on buying.

I didn't quote your entire response but the problem is that we do not all go on buying. GW sales volume has fallen every year for some time now. You state this late in your post but I just wanted to point out that people have stopped buying (at least as much as they were before).

While this is incontrovertible I think the more interesting question is why? Is it just the price? Or are we looking at the inevitable reaction to an increase in the quality of competition within the market. Most likely it is a combination of these plus an aging IP that may be losing a little but of steam.

I personally think GW is already pretty far down the wrong road as far as long term health is concerned. Increasing competition is going to keep chipping away at their market share and they have shown no sign of turning things around. They are also going to reap substantial short term profits from the Hobbit license. I include this as a bad thing because it will drastically improve the bottom line for a few years before drying up just like the LOTR license. This may allow GW to think they are turning things around while another competitor actually builds a more relevant market share and allow them to really compete.

Of course everything I have said has been said before and GW is still around so who really knows. In the back of my mind what I really worry about it not GW going out of business but someone buying them up for the IP and not making miniatures anymore.

Griever wrote:Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.

I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.

Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.

Wrong.

GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.

If GW stick around there will be warganing options, if they go...there will still be the same amount of wargaming options.