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I have enough for my german army but won't be buying any more BF mini's because the cost is too high for the quality you are getting. The resin tanks are badly designed and the general casting is pretty crappy (bubbles in resin, half tracks that were actually bent) to be honest. The metal tank tracks have been horrific and have required substantial revwork. I have not been happy with a single model from them. I have bought enough models to have a layable army and that is all they are getting out of me.

I would recommend that people buy from another source rather than BF where possible. Everything is now produced in Malaysia and I am sorry to say but it shows.

I am planning on a T34 Russian tank army and not a single mini of it will come from BF if all goes to plan.

I have to wonder what makes miniature manufacturers decide to raise prices a lot and disallow discounts. On the latter point, I would think that so long as they are selling for the same price and making the same volumes, they shouldn't mind what the retailers turn around and sell them for.
On the former, why on earth anyone would think "I can raise prices and make more money while doing the same thing!"as though markets don't respond to that? Perhaps that is not what they are thinking, but it seems to be pretty directly related at least, otherwise why increase the price on a product that otherwise is exactly the same? Nearly every other product type offers more value for less money compared to say 10 years ago, and while I agree that models now are much nicer than they were in 2000, I don't know that I would say they are so much nicer that the price increase makes a lot of sense.

I would love to attend a lecture by say GW or BF's presidents or CEOs explaining their business plans and some of their decisions. There is either some clever trick I want to know about, or they just don't understand business well.

Wehrkind wrote:There is either some clever trick I want to know about, or they just don't understand business well.

Having worked in business for 21 years and wo in mutliple industries I think I am leaning more to the latter part of your statement. I still don't get how the same tactics keep getting pursued and different results expected. A simple tour of FLGS and stores by senior decision makers would give an easy indication of what is going on. You wouldn't even need to talk to anyone, just sit and watch a store for a couple of days and watch how people make pricing decisions in real time.

It's not just the cost of the models but also the independent support. I see plenty of shops on the web that do discounted GW models, I also see a lot of independent GW tournaments. If BF annoy too many of these people the hobby around the game will suffer and so will their sales.

Bloodwin wrote:It's not just the cost of the models but also the independent support. I see plenty of shops on the web that do discounted GW models, I also see a lot of independent GW tournaments. If BF annoy too many of these people the hobby around the game will suffer and so will their sales.

...and unlike GW, Battlefront's customers have an alternative source of miniatures. Battlefront's miniatures are already competing with other miniatures such as Command Decision.

Plastic Solider is also stepping up by tackling several scale ranges at the same time and keeping up the quality regardless of size (talking about their tanks, I'm clueless about their soldiers)

I would think their limitation of discounts is originated in their wanting to help individual retailers.

Small gaming shops would likely fail to compete with larger web centric stores in terms of pricing. Add in lack of sales tax and it's quite an uphill battle for small shops....which I'm assuming multiple shops spread over large areas is better for FOW growth...

It's just a guess though.

I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.

Some comments were also made about price controls. Price controls by a manufacturer are totally fair. Everybody pays the same price, whether they buy on the net or from a FLGS. If you do not like a company's prices, that is a separate issue. Sure, if you get stuff on discount you can buy more stuff, but if you are buying wargaming products you obviously have a decent amount of disposable income. You can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, or LOTR for about $50 US retail.

The free market will lead to giant stores, like Wal Mart. They can afford to sell cheap because their overhead, such as stores, accountants, lawyers, etc... is divided amongst all of the different types of products that they sell. They initially offer products at huge discounts. Their competitors are put out of business. Then they raise prices. Wal Mart has been. It is very bad for the consumer. Another way in which they hurt the consumer is that they essentially dictate the products that are manufactured. Wal Mart wants high volume sales. So I hope that you guys like more Space Marines.

IMHO I think BF are in trouble, and they know it.

The Plastic Soldier Company and Zvevda are now both producing kits twice as good and half the price of BF and although the range is limited atm it will only grow, Zvevda's release schedule for this year is already impressive. BF have missed the boat, the future is bright, the future IS plastic.

Many people on the BF site are openly saying that BF's quality has slipped and are saying nice things about Forged in Battle, more competition.

Early war has not gone down as well as hoped, probably something to do with us old WW2 buffs having very real issues with BF's very selective outlook on history (No Polish AA or Air....Really?) and the younger generation buying into the German heavy tank myth.

Then we have BF's increasingly GW type antics, try even mentioning that there are other WW2 ranges out there and watch how fast the Mods fall on you!

Their total inability to arrange a sensible international price structure.

And now this? Ive been saying for months that BF are pissing off their customers and that they are getting worse, wasn't wrong was I?

Just thought that I'd add that all the Gale Force 9 stuff has gone on "While Stocks last" at Maelstrom too. As BF own GF9, it's not that surprising, but it might not be that obvious either...

spaceelf wrote:I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.

Some comments were also made about price controls. Price controls by a manufacturer are totally fair. Everybody pays the same price, whether they buy on the net or from a FLGS. If you do not like a company's prices, that is a separate issue. Sure, if you get stuff on discount you can buy more stuff, but if you are buying wargaming products you obviously have a decent amount of disposable income. You can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, or LOTR for about $50 US retail.

The free market will lead to giant stores, like Wal Mart. They can afford to sell cheap because their overhead, such as stores, accountants, lawyers, etc... is divided amongst all of the different types of products that they sell. They initially offer products at huge discounts. Their competitors are put out of business. Then they raise prices. Wal Mart has been. It is very bad for the consumer. Another way in which they hurt the consumer is that they essentially dictate the products that are manufactured. Wal Mart wants high volume sales. So I hope that you guys like more Space Marines.

Ive never understood the FLGS thing Im afraid. Ive never seen the attraction, Ive been wargaming for 25+ years and have never gamed in a shop, do what we do in England and have been doing since the 1970's, join/form a club and buy mail order.


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Holdenstein wrote:Just thought that I'd add that all the Gale Force 9 stuff has gone on "While Stocks last" at Maelstrom too. As BF own GF9, it's not that surprising, but it might not be that obvious either...

That will include Wargames Ilustrated too.....................

This isn't about discounts, lots of on-line retailers and my FLGS offer the same 10% discount that Maelstrom do. Battlefront's quality control has always been patchy (that's not to say that at times is has not been very good). Battlefront's sculpts are often excellent, but their prices are too high.

Battlefront cannot treat the 15mm WWII market as their own and hope to succeed. GW can (maybe) treat their games like they exist in a vacuum, they have a worldwide chain of stores and an exclusive IP to work with; Battlefront do not.

Someone is about to learn a lesson in humility I think.

spaceelf wrote:I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.

You must be a newcommer to the wargaming scene. I've been playing long before FLGS were doing much for folks, and havent really seen much use for them in the 20+ years of RPG's and wargames. To be honest I've seen most of the bad. If you got a good one great. But FLGS have been irrelevant to my hobby life in both cases. If they all went under, I'd still be playing. As would more then a few other people.
They havent provided me with much that I havent been able to get online or in a couple friends basements.

Sad part is they made themselves irrelevant.

Aldramelech wrote:

Ive never understood the FLGS thing Im afraid. Ive never seen the attraction, Ive been wargaming for 25+ years and have never gamed in a shop, do what we do in England and have been doing since the 1970's, join/form a club and buy mail order.

The gaming clubs that I have seen only meet once a week or so. If they do not have their own space then the tables and terrain usually suffer. FLGS are usually open 7 days a week and have long hours. All you need to do is drop in to find a game or get painting help.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:

You must be a newcommer to the wargaming scene. I've been playing long before FLGS were doing much for folks, and havent really seen much use for them in the 20+ years of RPG's and wargames. To be honest I've seen most of the bad. If you got a good one great. But FLGS have been irrelevant to my hobby life in both cases. If they all went under, I'd still be playing. As would more then a few other people.
They havent provided me with much that I havent been able to get online or in a couple friends basements.

Sad part is they made themselves irrelevant.

I guess our experiences are different. I have been playing GW games since the early 90s, and have been role playing since the 80s. I have found most of my wargaming opponents through FLGS. They were also introduced to the game, like I was, through FLGS. Most importantly, if I want to play a game I don't need to call someone and arrange a meeting, I just need to go to the store and pick up a game. I can understand that RPGs are somewhat different, as there are more players and are campaign based.

I guess Battlefront will have to compensate with the release of more Germans!

Slinky wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Mine sells beer XD

Vincent Vega: All right. Well, you can walk into a game shop in Amsterdam and buy a beer. And I don't mean just like in no paper cup, I'm talking about a glass of beer.

Our entire country isn't made up of Amsterdam >_< I live about as far away from that cesspool as possible without leaving the country (I'm staring at the german border here).

And we just have a huge fridge in the playing area with a jar in front of it, 1 buck a can, all the regulars just throw in 30-ish bucks each month so they don't have to bother with coins for the rest of the month.

Hey all, Maelstrom just posted over on warseer:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys,
Apologies for not posting here but it's been quite a hectic day. We will be issuing a public statement tomorrow, which may raise a few eyebrows.

Cheers

Rob Lane
MD, Maelstrom Games

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also link to the post as well: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5340029#post5340029

spaceelf wrote:
I guess our experiences are different. I have been playing GW games since the early 90s, and have been role playing since the 80s. I have found most of my wargaming opponents through FLGS. They were also introduced to the game, like I was, through FLGS. Most importantly, if I want to play a game I don't need to call someone and arrange a meeting, I just need to go to the store and pick up a game. I can understand that RPGs are somewhat different, as there are more players and are campaign based.

very different. I have no use for FLGS. Have found my opponets through friends. I dont need to call anyone to arrange games, through the magical power of the internet, we make arrangements prior and meet up. I know when my free time is, so wandering in to a store and hopeing someone is around doesnt happen(as was the case many times). I dont have to worry about their crappy days and times stores decide wargaming is allowed. I dont have to deal with TFG. If I need something, again through the power of the internet, I can buy it, cheaper with no hassle.

Hell we've formed game clubs that are outside of FLGS sphere. In my area they've made it clear about what they want or dont want. But with the power of the pocket book, I've made it clear that I dont need them either.

RPG's arent that different. Ages ago, early 90's, the stores use to have meet up boards and games that would meet or looking for folks. But again, they eventually took those down. But again, through the internet, I've been playing in my current game for 4 years with no signs of let up. All done and found online, played both online and face to face.

I'll still consider them for tournments, but really FLGS have made themselves irrelevant to me. Might be different for you. And I know Milka or however his name is spelled runs an excellent one.- but I've found his to be an exception to the rule.

I do know that Battlefront requires an actual brick and mortar store be in place to get their items. You can't be web only. I found that out a few years back when investigating a startup.

As for FLGS.... I see a few people constantly bringing up the fact that people need to support theirs. If those FLGS want support via buying product there, then they need to compete. I have zero incentive to drive 10 miles and pay 100% retail anything I can get for 20% off and sit at home. The margins are there for FLGS/Brick & Mortar store to compete. They should also get a web presence.

Over my last 20+ years gaming, almost 99% of the time it's coworkers and friend of a friend, meet in the garage or someone's house. I agree with carmachu, I don't want to have to make an appointement for the 3rd Saturday of any month, 2pm - 4pm, when the game store has it's 2 tables "reserved" for 40k players.

The Plastic Soldier Company and Zvevda are now both producing kits twice as good and half the price of BF and although the range is limited atm it will only grow, Zvevda's release schedule for this year is already impressive. BF have missed the boat, the future is bright, the future IS plastic.

Must have been a Nuremberg toy fair on another planet I went to and had a look at Zvezda products... I saw the new kits in person and only the tanks can be used for 15mm, soldiers and guns and are definitly bigger. You could use the planes, too bzt both tanks and planes lack some detail. Also stocking Zvezda is a real pain in the ass, since you never know when and what you will get from them. Go asks shops to order something from their range of products and very often you will hear a groan, especially if you need that stuff urgently.

Many people on the BF site are openly saying that BF's quality has slipped and are saying nice things about Forged in Battle, more competition.

I had both products in my fingers and while soldiers are of comparable quality tanks from FiB come with a base plate that is difficult to remove and proportions are somewhat strange (e.g. Panther being quite thin and long). Also guns and soldiers are many times not in scale.

Then we have BF's increasingly GW type antics, try even mentioning that there are other WW2 ranges out there and watch how fast the Mods fall on you!

Nearly every company has a policy of not mentioning other companies on their website. Most do it to avoid legal complaints from the aforementioned other companies.

Their total inability to arrange a sensible international price structure.

They did quite agood job when compared to other companies. Not perfect, but prices between UK and Germany are only some cents apart these days.

spaceelf wrote:I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.

Some comments were also made about price controls. Price controls by a manufacturer are totally fair. Everybody pays the same price, whether they buy on the net or from a FLGS. If you do not like a company's prices, that is a separate issue. Sure, if you get stuff on discount you can buy more stuff, but if you are buying wargaming products you obviously have a decent amount of disposable income. You can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, or LOTR for about $50 US retail.

The free market will lead to giant stores, like Wal Mart. They can afford to sell cheap because their overhead, such as stores, accountants, lawyers, etc... is divided amongst all of the different types of products that they sell. They initially offer products at huge discounts. Their competitors are put out of business. Then they raise prices. Wal Mart has been. It is very bad for the consumer. Another way in which they hurt the consumer is that they essentially dictate the products that are manufactured. Wal Mart wants high volume sales. So I hope that you guys like more Space Marines.

No offense man, but the economics of your post are nearly perfectly incorrect. Pretty much everything after "If you don't like a company's prices, that is a separate issue" is demonstrably false. Just to touch on a few:

1: Not every wargamer has "a decent amount of disposable income". Salvage, for instance, lives on 15K a year as a grad student (give or take). I started wargaming when I was 12, making about 50$ a year. So unless your definition of "decent" is "enough to get 1 blister pack a quarter" saying wargamers necessarily have money to waste is silly.
2: The free market leads to giant stores, but it also leads to smaller stores. Implying that some day there will be only Wal Mart (as you do, otherwise your argument makes less than zero sense) suggests that somehow, all of the small stores that exist anywhere are some sort of aberration. The market has been free (and increasingly less so) much longer than your FLGS has even existed.
3: WalMart's success has largely been due to innovations in employee training and capital (essentially using very low skilled employees to provide a lot of value) as well as a very strong supply chain. The different products aspect is completely irrelevant to overhead costs as well; those are distributed across the total volume of products sold, not the different types.
4: The theory that companies can become dominant in an industry or region by entering, underselling everyone, then raising prices after they all go out of business is really bad economics. It is the constant threat of competition cropping up that keeps their prices low, and that exists so long as any other person can enter the market. Theoretically you could have sufficiently high barriers to entry to avoid that, but unless it is governmentally erected why wouldn't keep THEM from entering in the first place. There's a fair body of work done on why this model of monopoly doesn't work, yet for some reason the silly fallacy keeps popping up. Like homeopathy...
5: WalMart dictates what they sell at their stores. Companies that want to have WalMart sell their products need to make the the things that WalMart wants to sell. If they don't, they sell them somewhere else. You might not realize it, but far more things are sold in non-WalMart stores than in WalMart, suggesting that WalMart has very little ability to dictate what is made and sold.
6: Walmart doesn't sell Space Marines, or any other GW products.

As a side note, if you are interested in meeting players that play wargames, there are many organizations that do so. HMGS East is a really good one on the east coast that puts on Cold Wars, Historicon and Fall IN! among other events. Good conventions to meet people from all over and play many different systems, scales and eras.

Just some intel on Battlefront....their entire US staff is made up of ex GWers. I think the manager or US CEO used to be the guy in charge of retail in the US for GW, and their other head guy used to be the head salesman. Their sales guys are the same ones who used to work for GW before they moved away. I think alot of thier New Zealand staff came from GWUS as well, but the company is owned by a New Zealander.

Someone made a comment about miniature companies engaging in price gauging. Sorry son, there's no such thing as price gauging. In a free market you can charge what you want for your product and make as much money as you can.

FLGS vs playing at home.....I hate to say it, but 50% of gamers out there I would not want to come in my house, and the rest are little kids. The FLGS is neutral ground.

Hobbs is right! It's a conspiracy.

Where did I put my decoder ring...

Battlefront have just shot themselves in the foot here, methinks.

Wehrkind is absolutely right in that no matter how big/controlling a company gets, there is nothing to stop a new company coming in and doing the same thing cheaper. This is particularly relevant with historicals as there is no IP that can be protected (save the ruleset).

What we need now is for the sci-fi/fantasy market to step up and for someone to give GW real competition (fingers crossed for Mantic, here). Ultimately in the free market competition is always the primary driving force for change.

I've been following BF and playing FOW on and off for about 7 years now. In that time I would say that BF has definitely changed as a company from being a very open and laid back organisation to becoming a much more controlling 'GW lite' style organisation.

I am increasingly uncomfortable with their direction of travel, and I believe that their minis are not as good as they were even 3 or 4 years ago.

I've heard it said that BF is just as ruthless to GW when it comes to looking after staff, and I suspect its built itself into a position where its ex GW staffers are now trying to push it as the new GW for historical gaming. I have a bad feeling about this!

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

The Plastic Soldier Company and Zvevda are now both producing kits twice as good and half the price of BF and although the range is limited atm it will only grow, Zvevda's release schedule for this year is already impressive. BF have missed the boat, the future is bright, the future IS plastic.

Must have been a Nuremberg toy fair on another planet I went to and had a look at Zvezda products... I saw the new kits in person and only the tanks can be used for 15mm, soldiers and guns and are definitly bigger. You could use the planes, too bzt both tanks and planes lack some detail. Also stocking Zvezda is a real pain in the ass, since you never know when and what you will get from them. Go asks shops to order something from their range of products and very often you will hear a groan, especially if you need that stuff urgently.

I never said Zvevda provided men or guns, they are from their 72nd scale range. As for the Tanks I have one of their T26's here and its fantastic and purchased with no fuss from the internet. As for guns Zvevda are releasing BM-13's in 15mm next month. If you regard BF tanks as detailed then maybe your on the wrong planet! If resin bubbles, missing parts, messed up metal tracks that have to be rebuilt and mold lines as big as the San Andreas Fault are your thing, then more power to you sunshine.

Many people on the BF site are openly saying that BF's quality has slipped and are saying nice things about Forged in Battle, more competition.

I had both products in my fingers and while soldiers are of comparable quality tanks from FiB come with a base plate that is difficult to remove and proportions are somewhat strange (e.g. Panther being quite thin and long). Also guns and soldiers are many times not in scale.

Again I have several different FIB sets in my Soviet army (Mortars, HMGs, Command Figures) and I think they are far Superior to BF.

Then we have BF's increasingly GW type antics, try even mentioning that there are other WW2 ranges out there and watch how fast the Mods fall on you!

Nearly every company has a policy of not mentioning other companies on their website. Most do it to avoid legal complaints from the aforementioned other companies.

Check out Westwind Productions and Grindhouse Games to see how a gaming company's forum should be run, you can mention what you want and show pictures of any figure you want as long as it is being used to play their games. To quote Jim Bailey of Grindhouse Games "This is YOUR game, no one here is gonna tell you how to play with your toys"

Their total inability to arrange a sensible international price structure.

They did quite agood job when compared to other companies. Not perfect, but prices between UK and Germany are only some cents apart these days.

Really? And why is one of the biggest complaints on the BF site on this subject the fact that its is cheaper to order from Maelstrom then BF, even if you live in New Zealand!


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spaceelf wrote:

Aldramelech wrote:

Ive never understood the FLGS thing I'm afraid. Ive never seen the attraction, Ive been wargaming for 25+ years and have never gamed in a shop, do what we do in England and have been doing since the 1970's, join/form a club and buy mail order.

The gaming clubs that I have seen only meet once a week or so. If they do not have their own space then the tables and terrain usually suffer. FLGS are usually open 7 days a week and have long hours. All you need to do is drop in to find a game or get painting help.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:

You must be a newcommer to the wargaming scene. I've been playing long before FLGS were doing much for folks, and havent really seen much use for them in the 20+ years of RPG's and wargames. To be honest I've seen most of the bad. If you got a good one great. But FLGS have been irrelevant to my hobby life in both cases. If they all went under, I'd still be playing. As would more then a few other people.
They havent provided me with much that I havent been able to get online or in a couple friends basements.

Sad part is they made themselves irrelevant.

I guess our experiences are different. I have been playing GW games since the early 90s, and have been role playing since the 80s. I have found most of my wargaming opponents through FLGS. They were also introduced to the game, like I was, through FLGS. Most importantly, if I want to play a game I don't need to call someone and arrange a meeting, I just need to go to the store and pick up a game. I can understand that RPGs are somewhat different, as there are more players and are campaign based.

In England (the true home of wargaming) we are somewhat more organized. Most places have a wargames club that has its own long term venue with adequate storage for terrain and are more importantly INDEPENDENT from any shop. It is true that we only meet once or twice a week but this is a good thing as I see the problem with the FLGS is that younger members spend all their time there and never at home painting their bloody armies! I hold the FLGS entirely responsible for this phenomenon of playing with unpainted figures, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago and a very bad thing for the hobby. Buy something from the shop, glue it together and slap it on the table? No bloody thanks!

Support your local FLGS? Why? When I started wargaming such a thing did not exist, everything was bought at shows or mail order (and with postal orders too, no credit cards). Now I can order on the internet from sites with great pictures so I know what I'm getting for cheaper and I don't even need to type in my credit card number, why the hell would I want to go out in the car, pay to park, walk to the shop full of sweaty, smelly teenagers and pay more for what I want? Always assuming they stock what I want anyway.

Why would I go there to play? I can go to my club and play my friends, why would I want to play complete strangers who turn out to be donkey-caves who cant be bothered to paint their armies. I can go to my club and play what I want, why would I go to the shop and be told what to play? Why would I put up with someone telling me "You cant play that game, because I don't stock it"?

When did it become my responsibility to subsidize some idiot who decided to open a Wargames Shop?

What he ^^ said.

+1 for playing whatever game I want with lovely painted figures and nice terrain, with mates who's company I enjoy, and with a beer in my hand.

- 1 for playing a (possibly anti-social) complete stranger with (probably) an unpainted and even partially assembled army in (definitely) a game system I've got bored with but is one of only 2 or 3 supported by the store, with models I had to pay 25% more for than I needed to, and had to spend 2+ hours driving and parking to obtain.

Sure, gaming at stores has its place, but its not for me. And I live within easy reach of a GW "battlebunker" I also live within reach of 6 wargaming clubs, which meet on various different days of the week.

Given the choice, a thriving club culture beats the pants off LGS's, however "friendly".

Although I appreciate not everyone has the choice. I truly pity you if you do not!

LOL!

Never played in a wargames shop either.

To be fair only ever been in two, and neither of them had tables to play on.

Both have closed down years ago.

I play at my local club and we have a purpose built location that has three tables, all 8 x 6, and storage for all the scenery. We are lucky that we had a club member willing to foot the bill for the clubs development!

General Hobbs wrote:

Just some intel on Battlefront....their entire US staff is made up of ex GWers. I think the manager or US CEO used to be the guy in charge of retail in the US for GW, and their other head guy used to be the head salesman. Their sales guys are the same ones who used to work for GW before they moved away. I think alot of thier New Zealand staff came from GWUS as well, but the company is owned by a New Zealander.
.

Really? That would explain... everything Are you sure about that mate? Its a case of GW moles

Aldramelech wrote:In England (the true home of wargaming) we are somewhat more organized. Most places have a wargames club that has its own long term venue with adequate storage for terrain and are more importantly INDEPENDENT from any shop. It is true that we only meet once or twice a week but this is a good thing as I see the problem with the FLGS is that younger members spend all their time there and never at home painting their bloody armies! I hold the FLGS entirely responsible for this phenomenon of playing with unpainted figures, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago and a very bad thing for the hobby. Buy something from the shop, glue it together and slap it on the table? No bloody thanks!

Support your local FLGS? Why? When I started wargaming such a thing did not exist, everything was bought at shows or mail order (and with postal orders too, no credit cards). Now I can order on the internet from sites with great pictures so I know what I'm getting for cheaper and I don't even need to type in my credit card number, why the hell would I want to go out in the car, pay to park, walk to the shop full of sweaty, smelly teenagers and pay more for what I want? Always assuming they stock what I want anyway.

Why would I go there to play? I can go to my club and play my friends, why would I want to play complete strangers who turn out to be donkey-caves who cant be bothered to paint their armies. I can go to my club and play what I want, why would I go to the shop and be told what to play? Why would I put up with someone telling me "You cant play that game, because I don't stock it"?

When did it become my responsibility to subsidize some idiot who decided to open a Wargames Shop?

Oh man so funny and all the same so accurate in some places.

Osbad wrote:+1 for playing whatever game I want with lovely painted figures and nice terrain, with mates who's company I enjoy, and with a beer in my hand.

- 1 for playing a (possibly anti-social) complete stranger with (probably) an unpainted and even partially assembled army in (definitely) a game system I've got bored with but is one of only 2 or 3 supported by the store, with models I had to pay 25% more for than I needed to, and had to spend 2+ hours driving and parking to obtain.

I agree.

I am literally 5 minutes away from a GW... and you'd have to pay me to play there.