Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

NobleSeven wrote:Touche. And yes that does happen sometimes.

But the metaphor was in regards to the many people who actually buy their product from their LGS and continue to buy product throughout the course of coming to said gaming store.

So, to clarify, when you go to a restaurant and buy your food there are you expected to also pay for the table you eat at?

Yep, tipping. You are paying for service. If you ordered take-out from the same restaurant, you wouldn't be expected to tip as there is not really any service. But by taking up table and staff time, most places expect you to tip.

In a more directly-applicable metaphor, if you go the bowling alley you both pay for the lane and to rent shoes and a ball. If you have your own shoes and ball, you still pay for the lane.

I think the Pay-To-Play concept is good business, but more often then not it is poorly implemented. Applying Pay-To-Play to general every day open-gaming will send customers packing, at least I know it would for me. IMO, the way it should be applied is by hosting 'special events' that offer something a little more than the normal and will draw in a crowd.

Tipping has nothing to do with the actual table you are eating at. It has everything to do with service.

You tip people for a job well done. If they do poorly you tip less or if it is truly horrendous- not at all.

If my table has a scratch in it or there is a tear in the booth I am sitting at I am not going to tip the server less due to this.

Okay, how about this one: You go in at lunch, pay for your food, sit at their table, and take your leftovers. Then, at dinner time, you bring your leftovers back in and ask for a table.

we can only stretch the metaphor so thin but my point is (as per the earlier post) that at some point the full retail price is no longer paying for gaming space. My $150 over the internet pays for how much time on the tables? Or, if I went to the same place for 10 years and played with that same army, should the fact that I paid retail a decade ago still count as my entry fee?

This is why I prefer pay-to-play combined with FLGS owners being okay with my army being bought on the internet. It also frees them up from having to build ill-will by turning me away (a la some GW locations).

We have a local store that literally runs 1 tournament for 40k every weekend. It is great and all that money comes back to players in the form of store credit. It basically guarantee's revenue for the store and makes for a guaranteed good time at least once a week if you got the time to play.

As for paying to play I would not like that because some gamers only play like once a month. That would be unfair to them to have to pay everytime they play.

Mannahnin wrote:In a more directly-applicable metaphor, if you go the bowling alley you both pay for the lane and to rent shoes and a ball. If you have your own shoes and ball, you still pay for the lane.

inconceivable!!!

I think pay to play for your LGS is a ridiculous notion.

And all this talk about restaurants is making me hungry.

I'll try and dig up a few extra dollars to get a good table.

We have a LGS in the area that lets you play all day as long as you buy $5 in merch. I have always though this is more than fair.

The sad truth is that nowadays local gaming stores are competing against "Internet sales". I recently talk to one guy who had a LGS and he told me that his own custumers, usually tweens, went to play in the store but hey get their minis through websites.

When the costumers have no gratitude or moral responsability towards their LGS, what else do you have? A lot of stores are dying with all the crisis.

That is a problem, it is hard for me to find a good place for a tournament in my own city after my usual LGS got closed. I would pay 5 dollars, pounds or euros for having a nice noon with gaming people.

The future are the gaming clubs, groups of friends that manage to get some place and share the hobby together.

NobleSeven wrote:I think pay to play for your LGS is a ridiculous notion.

Do you also think paying for play space in a bowling alley, or a pool hall, is a ridiculous notion?

That being said, it is a nuanced issue. Many successful FLGS owners (like Mikhaila) have said they feel there are better ways to get customers to spend their money at the store.

But I don't think there's anything ridiculous about it at all.

pretre wrote:

WUWU wrote:I don't understand why most game stores don't run a variety of tournaments constantly

It seems that when stores start charging a fee to play, it's usually in response to gamers coming in and playing, but never purchasing anything. Well, running tournaments is basically encouraging gamers to come in and pay to play, with the incentive of possibly winning credit or merchandise in the process. It's a win for both parties, and most gamers seems to be a competitive lot, so it shouldn't take too much persuading.

This. I think 100% to prizes (store credit) tournaments are brilliant. We have a store out here that does it and it means that they take in $15 x participant number for each tournament and it all goes to the store. In exchange, you know that all of that money is 'coming back' to the participants. Win/Win.

Exactly. I think most retail outlets would kill to have this product/consumer dynamic, and yet it is rarely capitalized on by game stores.

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

Manchu's right, the metaphor has been stretched to death.

LGS's have to make money. If you're not buying product, they'll sell food, drinks, or table space to make a living. If you are in their store, you better be buying something from them. Otherwise, why are you there?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

WUWU wrote:Exactly. I think most retail outlets would kill to have this product/consumer dynamic, and yet it is rarely capitalized on by game stores.

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

I don't get stores that aren't running an event a day. If/when I get a store, I would use this kind of thing to pack them in.

Buy-in challenge games, sealed drafts, tournaments, promotions.

Gaming and comic stores who expect to make money just off people walking in and purchasing merchandise while they chill and play WOW aren't living in reality.

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

Another thing worth considering is the length of time that one game can tie up a table. If you're like my group, 4 hours easy.

I think the right way to go would be to offer a table subscription at a fair price and then include in that price some nice extras: free drinks for example, maybe 1 free army book of your choice per year, access to the store's Internet Discussion Board, VIP lounge with awesome music, etc.

The other way around it is to run more Tournaments where people have to pay to play anyway - use some of the $$ for prizes, use some for the store's expenses.

It's something that needs to be done delicately - no matter what, if you start charging, certain people will vanish. Make it more than just a table fee by providing extras that show appreciation for the customer and it can work out well for everyone.

WUWU wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

So how big is your store?

You gonna have the room and staff to host a tournament every day AND have room for the people that want to play other games or who don't play tournaments?

What times you having these tournaments during weekdays? How long is a typical tournament?

Most adults are at work all day and kids have school so turnout for both of these groups would be minimal until late in the afternoon, and if you start later what time you staying open to and because a lot of kids are not gonna be able to stay out late, and most hard working adults don't want to (especially if they have other family obligations).

Start breaking down the logistics of what you are saying and factor it to the actual income of most stores compared to cost of square footage, utilities, payroll, etc.

It isn;t so easy as you suggest.

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

So how big is your store?

You gonna have the room and staff to host a tournament every day AND have room for the people that want to play other games or who don't play tournaments?

What times you having these tournaments during weekdays? How long is a typical tournament?

Most adults are at work all day and kids have school so turnout for both of these groups would be minimal until late in the afternoon, and if you start later what time you staying open to and because a lot of kids are not gonna be able to stay out late, and most hard working adults don't want to (especially if they have other family obligations).

Start breaking down the logistics of what you are saying and factor it to the actual income of most stores compared to cost of square footage, utilities, payroll, etc.

It isn;t so easy as you suggest.

I understand there are logistical concerns.. that's life though.

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

When business starts to falter it seems most stores would rather do nothing -or worse yet, throw out a flat fee to play- then attempt to enact positive change. It doesn't surprise me at all that most games stores have a very short lifespan

This is like... people only remember how cool was to have a LGS in their town when that LGS is no more there.

This hobby and players need local gaming stores.
LGSs are fighting against the crisis and the internet sales.
If paying for the gaming board, using lockers... is part of the solution for the survival of a LGS, take my money.

Because I´ve been there, I´ve seen gaming communities dying because when there was no LGS there were no tournaments and the social part of the hobby got lost. People paint less miniatures every month, less games, they loose contact and one year after they hardly see each other again.

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

customer service, ordering, stocking, inventoring, monitoring store, taking calls from customers, taking calls from vendors, cleaning, managing/policing/babysitting the almost constant gaggle of people haning out in your store, running demos, fixing broken items, etc., etc.

in fact when i had a store I often did not have time to do everything I needed or wanted to do in a given day and I worked 12+ hours seven days a week. And if if you plan for the 15 things you know you NEED to do you will usually have four or five things come up that DEMAND immediate attention during the course of the day.

Yes that is life and that is buisness, but you seem to be implying that stores that struggle are doing so because they are somehow lazy and unwilling to "just run events". What I am suggesting is that it is far more complicated then that. IF there was one simple solution like this then we would have multiple stores in every town doing booming buisness.

The reality is far from what most gamers assume it is.

And yes some stores do very well: The Mikaelas of the world prove this, but for every Mikaela there are scores if not hundreds that come and go. I think it is a little narrow minded to assume that this is all simply due to lazy owners not running enough ccg booster drafts...

If I was being charged to 'pay to play' at my local store - I'd just go to my club instead.

We have a room big enough for 36 players (and 18 tables) - and with some prior arrangements, enough terrain to fill them all.

Sure, we charge a fee per person per meeting (this is mainly to cover our club costs like venue hire and bulk storage lockup - where the majority of our boards and terrain is kept securely - but the remainder goes into our club funds to keep our tournaments going, and to ensure prizes are there for them)>

Besides. I can have beers at my club.
Can't take any alcohol into my local GW (My only local games store with tables) - although there is a pub next door to it.

It's kinda fortunate. I generally need a few reinforcing pints before facing that horde of munchkins.

CT GAMER wrote:

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

customer service, ordering, stocking, inventoring, monitoring store, taking calls from customers, taking calls from vendors, cleaning, managing/policing/babysitting the almost constant gaggle of people haning out in your store, running demos, fixing broken items, etc., etc.

in fact when i had a store I often did not have time to do everything I needed or wanted to do in a given day and I worked 12+ hours seven days a week. And if if you plan for the 15 things you know you NEED to do you will usually have four or five things come up that DEMAND immediate attention during the course of the day.

Yes that is life and that is buisness, but you seem to be implying that stores that struggle are doing so because they are somehow lazy and unwilling to "just run events". What I am suggesting is that it is far more complicated then that. IF there was one simple solution like this then we would have multiple stores in every town doing booming buisness.

The reality is far from what most gamers assume it is.

And yes some stores do very well: The Mikaelas of the world prove this, but for every Mikaela there are scores if not hundreds that come and go. I think it is a little narrow minded to assume that this is all simply due to lazy owners not running enough ccg booster drafts...

If your entire 12 hour day is filled with helping customers, ordering new inventory, and monitoring a room filled with gamers, you probably aren't in the position where you have to charge people to hang it in your store, just to keep the doors open.

The entire premise of this conversation is based on stores that are struggling to do business. Rather than charging people to play, a creative and positive solution is to run events. You don't agree with this?

WUWU wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

customer service, ordering, stocking, inventoring, monitoring store, taking calls from customers, taking calls from vendors, cleaning, managing/policing/babysitting the almost constant gaggle of people haning out in your store, running demos, fixing broken items, etc., etc.

in fact when i had a store I often did not have time to do everything I needed or wanted to do in a given day and I worked 12+ hours seven days a week. And if if you plan for the 15 things you know you NEED to do you will usually have four or five things come up that DEMAND immediate attention during the course of the day.

Yes that is life and that is buisness, but you seem to be implying that stores that struggle are doing so because they are somehow lazy and unwilling to "just run events". What I am suggesting is that it is far more complicated then that. IF there was one simple solution like this then we would have multiple stores in every town doing booming buisness.

The reality is far from what most gamers assume it is.

And yes some stores do very well: The Mikaelas of the world prove this, but for every Mikaela there are scores if not hundreds that come and go. I think it is a little narrow minded to assume that this is all simply due to lazy owners not running enough ccg booster drafts...

If your entire 12 hour day is filled with helping customers, ordering new inventory, and monitoring a room filled with gamers, you probably aren't in the position where you have to charge people to hang it in your store, just to keep the doors open.

The entire premise of this conversation is based on stores that are struggling to do business. Rather than charging people to play, a creative and positive solution is to run events. You don't agree with this?

i don't agree with a flip oversimlification of a complex issue that is made up of scores of variables and factors particualr to each specific situation.

The suggestion that if a store owner just ran a pokemon tourney every day everything would be fine pure idealism and has no basis in reality as a broad solution tot he trend of game stores struggling and closing...

I think the comparison to Bowling Alleys or Pool Halls is spot on.
With the above, you pay for every game you play, even if you bring your own equipment.

Or another example is the indoor softball leagues in my area.
You pay to be part of a league/team which is your user fee for the facility you are using.

Any money a person has paid for an army is irrelevant.
We should be perfectly willing and able to pay for gaming space.
We are using space that the owner of said space has a right to compensation for.
Who do you think cleans up after the gaming is over?

Have any of you looked into the cost to use part of a reception hall, VFW or Legion hall?
They charge for the time and space used and it ain't cheap.

The lack of clubs and expectation of free play-space in the U.S. has spoiled us.

My store is free

NobleSeven wrote:So, to clarify, when you go to a restaurant and buy your food there are you expected to also pay for the table you eat at?

You might as well skip the analogies, they don't help. Restaurants factor rent, wages, overtime etc. into the cost of the food, and afterwards, the tip.

If games store owners knew they were getting a tip at the end of the end of the evening I'm sure this would be less of an issue.

In any case, I think it's a good idea to charge. Supporting your LGS has advantages in the long run.

BobbaFett Wrote:

The sad truth is that nowadays local gaming stores are competing against "Internet sales". I recently talk to one guy who had a LGS and he told me that his own custumers, usually tweens, went to play in the store but hey get their minis through websites.

When the costumers have no gratitude or moral responsability towards their LGS, what else do you have? A lot of stores are dying with all the crisis.

That is a problem, it is hard for me to find a good place for a tournament in my own city after my usual LGS got closed. I would pay 5 dollars, pounds or euros for having a nice noon with gaming people.

The future are the gaming clubs, groups of friends that manage to get some place and share the hobby together.

I agree with what BobbaFett and Mastiff just posted.

There is too much economic pressure and game store owners will have to do anything to keep their store open. If that means that 40K/miniatures are not making enough money for the usage of square footage of the store, then that store owner will make a change in product that will make money for them.

I have seen this happen to some of the game stores in my area in the past years. They used to play miniatures, now they cater to card games/ board games for to a better return rate on gross profits and then give some (smaller) space for war gaming.

I would gladly pay to play if it means to help my LGS to stay afloat.

a small waagh wrote:Just today me and two friends went into town to buy some stuff (as we had just discovered that there was a warhammer stockist in our town) and asked what days that they played. The answer was every day, but you must pay a £5 subscription fee every month. Is this a normal thing to happen or is this a bit "abnormal" for want of a better word?

As others have said this isn't "normal" in the US but if you are getting good service, nice boards, and a clean and friendly place to play then I think it isn't a very high price.

Just my humble opinion from someone who's run two game stores for 22 years. I've looked at this problem many times.

It Not A Good Idea

Why? First off, the money you collect from tables is crap. A few hundred bucks a month at most, won't go far to paying the rent, and you lost more than that from the business you turned away.

Screw worrying about people that don't support your store, and just don't worry about them. That's a side issue keeping you from focusing on making money from the customers that do support you.

The more customers you have playing games in your store, the more money that store will take in. Maximize customer hours in the store. Run events, leagues, tournaments, Painting classes. Have great tables, FREE to play on, with great scenery. Encourage gaming. Gaming sells games.

Focus also on your stock as well.. Can't sell what you don't have. Stock full lines of games, accessories, modeling supplies, scenery, etc. Out do GW at what GW does best. Get people in the store, and sell them games because you have games to sell. I had 3 guys travel an hour to my store last Tuesday to drop 500.00 on Warmachine because their local store didn't have stuff to sell them. Their loss, my gain.

Charging for tables encourages people to NOT come in, and they aren't buying if they aren't in the store.

Rambling as I'm downing 32 oz of coffee so I can go cook. I just went out and bought 100 lbs of chicken, beans, spices, rice, peppers, and marinade. Making 60 lbs of smoked chicken tomorrow, after it marinades in teriyaki tonite, and many pots of chili and sausage gumbo. Feeding 60 people at SVDM this weekend. Need to go cook.

I don't want people to pay to use my tables. I want them to come game for free. Then if they can buy something if they need it. I'll get their money at some point, not worried about it.

I will match my gaming sales against anyone charging for tables. I will match my smoked chicken against that charred lizard jerkey the ultramarines cook with their flamers and chew on all day while painting everything blue.

Must cook. Need coffee.

I find no problem with paying. After all, you are using a service that somebody else is providing: namely, terrain and gaming space. LGS's are losing the miniatures battle to online sites. However, only they can provide this service, because it takes physical space. I say take advantage of it. They own the tables, who's to say they can't charge to let you use them? Should billiard tables be free if we bring our own stuff? Should the YMCA stop charging membership simply because someone brings their own basketball?