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I'm kinda inclined to go with one of the previous ideas that it could be Corax, some of the ones that he didnt destroy, if there were any.

Only other speculation is that they are from one of the missing primarchs, easiest explanation too as GW probably didnt think that much into the fluff when the Blood Ravens were first thought up.

But i definately agree that they are not from Horus or Magnus.

I know, but there would be someone who would start spreading that


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Matt070 wrote:I'm kinada inclined to go with one of the previous ideas that it could be Corax, some of the ones that he didnt destroy, if there were any.

Only other speculation is that they are from one of the missing primarchs, easiest explanation too GW probably didnt think that much into the fluff when the Blood Ravens were first thought up

You want to know an even better 'speculation'(really an explanation)?

That they're just a Successor Chapter of one of the existing Chapters.

The two 'missing Primarchs' will never be explored in the lore. They're supposed to be lost, tales of tragedy and woe that we'll never actually hear.

Nothing exists of them, their tale is so tragic it was stricken from the record.

The lost primarchs keep getting mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels, so to say that they will never be explored is a bit of a bold statement. So it could be where they came from, probably as a successor chapter if the legions were integrated into others, but initially coming from one of the legions/gene seed of the lost primarchs.

Matt070 wrote:The lost primarchs keep getting mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels, so to say that they will never be explored is a bit of a bold statement. So it could be where they came from, probably as a successor chapter if the legions were integrated into others, but initially coming from one of the legions/gene seed of the lost primarchs.

It's really not.
GW keep them so DIY chapters can have a touch of mystery but it also adds an element of the unknown to damn near eveything if you even mention them.

Matt070 wrote:The lost primarchs keep getting mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels, so to say that they will never be explored is a bit of a bold statement. So it could be where they came from, probably as a successor chapter if the legions were integrated into others, but initially coming from one of the legions/gene seed of the lost primarchs.

'Mention' is not the same as 'explored'.

And no. We've already been told what happened to them. They, and their Legions, were killed/lost in some mysterious circumstances and nothing was ever able to be salvaged from them.

I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.

Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.

Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.

Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?

Dante, and the 7 Deadly Sins. Which The blood Ravens are guilty of...

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.

Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?

Dante, and the 7 Deadly Sins. Which The blood Ravens are guilty of...

You know in comms that is what's called restricted communication as theorised by Burnstein. Essentially it raises a semetic barrier between the sender and the reciever, as shown the send-message-reciever model.
In short, explain please.

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.

Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?

Dante, and the 7 Deadly Sins. Which The blood Ravens are guilty of...

You know in comms that is what's called restricted communication as theorised by Burnstein. Essentially it raises a semetic barrier between the sender and the reciever, as shown the send-message-reciever model.
In short, explain please.

OK there are 7 deadly sins.
Gluttony- Chapter trying to overeat on Knowledge
Lust- Captain Gabriel Angelous
Wraith/Anger- The Entire Chapter
Greed- Their current chapter master wants more power.
Pride- The Captain in Chaos Rising has too much pride to notice corruption
Envy- Every Scout has this when looking at a 1st Company Terminator
Sloth- The Current Captain of the 4th.
Basically this is not joke. Its actually the chapter broke all 7 sins, Plus its an example

They seem like blood angels to me though. More than any other legion.

I think many chapter are guilty of that... apart from lust and even then...
They don't act like BA at all.
In fact the only thing they seem to share is a colour and the word blood.

Kan - i dont think the legions were lost /killed - there's a reason why the UM have 250,000 marines cf the nmore usual 100k...I thin kits more likely a proportion of the lgions were destroyed, along with the primarchs.

I hope they dont properly explore them (apart fom the hints that it was Russ that did it) as mystery is good.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - i don't think the legions were lost /killed - there's a reason why the UM have 250,000 marines cf the more usual 100k...I thin kits more likely a proportion of the lgions were destroyed, along with the primarchs.

Yeah, there is.

The Ultramarines have some of the most stable gene-seed that's existed to date. There's a reason they've been the basis for most of the Successor Chapters out there.

The only place where we've seen anything suggesting that the Ultramarines somehow 'acquired' the Marines from those Lost Legions is in 'The First Heretic', and it's(from what I understand) spoken by a Word Bearer. The Word Bearers had an axe to grind against Guilleman and his boys for the censure that they enacted against the Word Bearers.

Yet in "Legion" the UM are considered to be tainted, hence were not chosen by the Cabal. THat taint could be through induction of non-UM into their chapter.

That quote was spoken by a Word Bearer, but IIRC it's a rumor that goes around all of the legions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet in "Legion" the UM are considered to be tainted, hence were not chosen by the Cabal. THat taint could be through induction of non-UM into their chapter.

Or it could be because they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.

There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.

Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.

Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.

Matt070 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.

Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.

It wasn't said by a Word Bearer.

The 'tainted' accusation was from the Xenos Cabal. Which, simply put, could have been because...

Say it with me folks.

The Ultramarines were devoted to the Word of the Emperor, considered rigid and inflexible.

Kanluwen wrote:

Matt070 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.

Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.

It wasn't said by a Word Bearer.

The 'tainted' accusation was from the Xenos Cabal. Which, simply put, could have been because...

Say it with me folks.

The Ultramarines were devoted to the Word of the Emperor, considered rigid and inflexible.

Or because they were right? Its not writtin either way, so either or neither could be true.

Matt070 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Matt070 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.

Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.

It wasn't said by a Word Bearer.

The 'tainted' accusation was from the Xenos Cabal. Which, simply put, could have been because...

Say it with me folks.

The Ultramarines were devoted to the Word of the Emperor, considered rigid and inflexible.

Or because they were right? Its not written either way, so either or neither could be true.

No, it's really not.
In "Legion", when the Cabal is talking about the Ultramarines they're asked by Grammaticus to find another Chapter for him to approach.

The Alphas are the only ones who weren't 'tainted' by the idea of the Emperor's Utopia.

Which is your interpretation of it, i know i'm new to this forum and i'm just having a friendly discussion on opinion, suggestion, explanation, theory whatever you want to call it on where the Blood Ravens come from, seems to me that so far your contribution has been "no, thats wrong" to everything thats been said, and what you've said is obviously right. Unless you have a hidden book or writings from BL and games workshop giving all the explanations, everyones opinion is as valid as each others and not just wrong because you say so.

Matt070 wrote:Which is your interpretation of it, i know i'm new to this forum and i'm just having a friendly discussion on opinion, suggestion, explanation, theory whatever you want to call it on where the Blood Ravens come from, seems to me that so far your contribution has been "no, thats wrong" to everything thats been said, and what you've said is obviously right.

Erm, no. Because I've put forward no theory. I'm just shutting down everyone else's theories.

You know why? Because they're absurd. Almost every theory that we see posted here on Dakka is inevitably a 'square peg, round hole' theory--an attempt to jam an assorted lot of facts, which are not interconnected at all, together.

Unless you have a hidden book or writings from BL and games workshop giving all the explanations, everyones opinion is as valid as each others and not just wrong because you say so.

You don't need to have a 'hidden book or writings from BL and Games Workshop giving all the explanations'. You just have to actually read more than one piece of background text.

Fact 1: Magnus could not be the Primarch. Why? The Thousand Sons' gene-seed was fatally flawed, and was in fact not what gave them a large proportion of psykers in their ranks.
Add to it that the gene-seed of the Traitor Legions is kept within a time-locked vault guarded by the Custodes--suffice to say, nobody's sneaking their way into there to get the gene-seed out to found their little Thousand Sons Mk. II attempt.
Fact 2: Horus and pretty much none of the Traitor Primarchs also could not be the Primarch. This one's a bit easier, because it's just the additional note to fact 1. The Gene-Seed's locked away, and will be until the time that the Emperor set on the clock runs out.
Fact 3: They're not a Raven Guard, Salamanders or Blood Angels Successor because they don't exhibit the traits of any of those Legions. They don't have the Black Rage, the waking nightmares, etc of the Blood Angels and they don't have the albinism or sullen moods of the Raven Guard nor the coloration of the Salamanders(which is a flaw in the gene-seed).
Fact 4: They're not a Space Wolves Successor because they physically cannot be. The traits that are physically expressed within the Space Wolves are not present.

So what does that leave? Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, or the Iron Hands.

Bear in mind: That's just based upon the facts available at this time. It's likely they just want the origins of the Blood Raven to be a mystery.

Kanluwen wrote:Erm, no. Because I've put forward no theory. I'm just shutting down everyone else's theories.

You know why? Because they're absurd. Almost every theory that we see posted here on Dakka is inevitably a 'square peg, round hole' theory--an attempt to jam an assorted lot of facts, which are not interconnected at all, together.

Again, your opinion that they're absurd, to others it may present a new thing to think about or come up with something we havent heard. I agree that Horus and Magnus are a defo no, but thats my opinion, if someone can think up a way it might be then thats fine, i'm interested to hear it. Yes they might keep it a mystery but its something interesting to discuss which adds to the fluff etc of the diverse 40k universe.

Just because the successor chapters show no traits doesnt mean that they are not from those legions, the trait could have mutated into something else for example... but no doubt that is wrong as well eh?

Matt070 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Erm, no. Because I've put forward no theory. I'm just shutting down everyone else's theories.

You know why? Because they're absurd. Almost every theory that we see posted here on Dakka is inevitably a 'square peg, round hole' theory--an attempt to jam an assorted lot of facts, which are not interconnected at all, together.

Again, your opinion that they're absurd, to others it may present a new thing to think about or come up with something we havent heard. I agree that Horus and Magnus are a defo no, but thats my opinion, if someone can think up a way it might be then thats fine, i'm interested to hear it. Yes they might keep it a mystery but its something interesting to discuss which adds to the fluff etc of the diverse 40k universe.

It may be new or something you haven't heard, Matt...but I've heard almost every one of these theories before. Repeatedly.

Just because the successor chapters show no traits doesnt mean that they are not from those legions, the trait could have mutated into something else for example... but no doubt that is wrong as well eh?

Ehhh. Yes and no.

That will occasionally happen with the smaller traits...but the big things are essentially "non-negotiable".

Well if you've heard them before why not just let others discuss it without you saying "your wrong?"

Where does it say they are non negotiable?

Kan - yet the reason given is that the UM had been diluted too much, hence the taint - the Alphas were newer and smaller

Your theory is just that: a theory with no more basis than others, and your derogatory and snide attitude doesnt help matters.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - yet the reason given is that the UM had been diluted too much, hence the taint - the Alphas were newer and smaller

Your theory is just that: a theory with no more basis than others, and your derogatory and snide attitude doesnt help matters.

Find that quote about 'dilution' for me.

It had nothing to do with, again, some actual physically representable 'taint'. It was flowery language, spoken by an Eldar Autarch within the Cabal. The context is, once again, important.

It's also worth noting that the Alphas, while newer, were the size of any other Legion. The Ultramarines and Thousand Sons were outliers within the average make-up of the Legions. The only thing that set the Alpha Legion apart from the rest was that they were known for subtlety and practicality.

And yes. My theory is just that. A theory. However, it does have a tad more basis to work from than others and I've spelled out why.
There's no "derogatory" or "snide" attitude involved by the by. It's simple and matter-of-fact when I state something.

Matt070 wrote:Well if you've heard them before why not just let others discuss it without you saying "your wrong?"

Because correcting misinformation and at least attempting to steer people towards more sensible theories is somewhat important?

I know, it's silly but when it comes to these kinds of threads in 40k Background, we get three types of people posting them(off the top of my head).
Sometimes the person posting is new, and they feel they're sharing some great new revelation and "enlightening" us as to their newly-minted truth. In which case, it's important to point them towards the other threads or show them why their interpretation is mistaken--while steering them towards other material they can read to begin building up all the facts for a better case to present at another point.

Then there's the other kind of person. This person goes off second-hand information, and generally can be considered like the "NASA never went to the moon!" folks. They will not accept anything as proof--other than what they deem acceptable.

Then there's the final type of person posting these threads. They generally post one or two of these threads, then stop posting period. Whether they're trying to get a rise out of the community, stir up the pot, or whatever I can't say.

Also: I won't lie. I can just as likely be wrong with my 'theory' as you want to call it(even though I'm not going around advocating it or anything...I'm just pointing out holes in the logic train that people use to arrive at the Traitor Primarchs). But that chance is pretty slim, unless GW does some serious retconning or pulls out a Deus Ex Machina for how the Blood Ravens came about.

Matt070 wrote:Where does it say they are non negotiable?

When it comes to the traits displayed by Successor Chapters?

Everywhere. Successor Chapters will almost always have the major 'flaws' of their parent Chapter's gene-seed. Sometimes, they will have unique flaws associated with just that Successor Chapter--but it's far more rare to see them not exhibiting their parents' gene-seed when it comes to the major parts.

For example: The Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor Chapter. They exhibit all of the Raven Guard's traits. The paper-white skin and the coal black eyes are associated with a mutation within the gene-seed of the Raven Guard, just like Salamanders' coal black skin is a by-product of a mutation within their gene-seed

See one thing I've never understood about the Blood Ravens situation.

Now the Blood Ravens are all Space Marines, and are thus required to submit a Gene-seed tithe to Terra, to ensure there is no corruption right?

How hard is it to simply cross reference all the genetic material they have to identify where the gene-seed originates/has highest matching markers? Surely if there was such a degree of corruption to this make this impossible why would the inquisition or the High Lords simply not order their destruction?

I know it's me being simple but it's bugged me for ages as to why it's not been asked before

P.S. Also, having read Legion, Kan is right. It's inferred that all the other SM chapters are too set in their ways, either following the Emperor Blindly, or already in Horus' pocket to be approached. Alpha Legion is trained to question everything, and view all sides of a situation and see the bigger picture, hence why the Cabal approach them.

Ok, I am making it clear to all of you right now. The Blood Ravens Primarch probably hasn't even been fully thought out yet.

The Blood Ravens were created for the THQ game Dawn of War by THQ! Other than maybe 2 articles about the Blood Ravens that GW has let out, and a handful of pics in army books etc., the Blood Ravens are not associated with GW and they wouldn't waste much time devising a background for them.

BL has released Blood Ravens Novels, but only to accompany a Dawn of War game. So don't look to GW for the answer, look to THQ. Since they probably don't think about it too hard, there are only hypothesis and theories that can be made about their origins. Based on above, Kan is correct about which Primarchs that you can weed out.

Just remember that this is all speculation, and until the real world creators of the BR tell you or hint very, very strongly at a candidate, all you can do is guess.

Kanluwen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - yet the reason given is that the UM had been diluted too much, hence the taint - the Alphas were newer and smaller

Your theory is just that: a theory with no more basis than others, and your derogatory and snide attitude doesnt help matters.

Find that quote about 'dilution' for me.

It had nothing to do with, again, some actual physically representable 'taint'. It was flowery language, spoken by an Eldar Autarch within the Cabal. The context is, once again, important.

It's also worth noting that the Alphas, while newer, were the size of any other Legion. The Ultramarines and Thousand Sons were outliers within the average make-up of the Legions. The only thing that set the Alpha Legion apart from the rest was that they were known for subtlety and practicality.

And yes. My theory is just that. A theory. However, it does have a tad more basis to work from than others and I've spelled out why.
There's no "derogatory" or "snide" attitude involved by the by. It's simple and matter-of-fact when I state something.

Matt070 wrote:Well if you've heard them before why not just let others discuss it without you saying "your wrong?"

Because correcting misinformation and at least attempting to steer people towards more sensible theories is somewhat important?

I know, it's silly but when it comes to these kinds of threads in 40k Background, we get three types of people posting them(off the top of my head).
Sometimes the person posting is new, and they feel they're sharing some great new revelation and "enlightening" us as to their newly-minted truth. In which case, it's important to point them towards the other threads or show them why their interpretation is mistaken--while steering them towards other material they can read to begin building up all the facts for a better case to present at another point.

Then there's the other kind of person. This person goes off second-hand information, and generally can be considered like the "NASA never went to the moon!" folks. They will not accept anything as proof--other than what they deem acceptable.

Then there's the final type of person posting these threads. They generally post one or two of these threads, then stop posting period. Whether they're trying to get a rise out of the community, stir up the pot, or whatever I can't say.

Also: I won't lie. I can just as likely be wrong with my 'theory' as you want to call it(even though I'm not going around advocating it or anything...I'm just pointing out holes in the logic train that people use to arrive at the Traitor Primarchs). But that chance is pretty slim, unless GW does some serious retconning or pulls out a Deus Ex Machina for how the Blood Ravens came about.

Matt070 wrote:Where does it say they are non negotiable?

When it comes to the traits displayed by Successor Chapters?

Everywhere. Successor Chapters will almost always have the major 'flaws' of their parent Chapter's gene-seed. Sometimes, they will have unique flaws associated with just that Successor Chapter--but it's far more rare to see them not exhibiting their parents' gene-seed when it comes to the major parts.

For example: The Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor Chapter. They exhibit all of the Raven Guard's traits. The paper-white skin and the coal black eyes are associated with a mutation within the gene-seed of the Raven Guard, just like Salamanders' coal black skin is a by-product of a mutation within their gene-seed

Kan you do come off snide and all knowing, stating things as "Fact" when your dealing with matters of opinion. Your coming off as some all knowing lord of SM fluff.

It is possible that Magus is the Primarch of the Blood ravens here is my argument why:
1: hints previously stated (alot of psykers, the profecy of the raven of blood rising from the ashes of prospero, ect)
2: You say they dont display the gene marker of freakish mutations, guess what... GW/BL can just make up some reason for why they were spared the mutation, perhaps Arhimans rubric worked differently on the sons outside of the warp than in it? maybe when the chapter was created the flaw was purged from the geneseed? The thousand sons didnt align themselves to chaos in any way and if anything were at the head of the pack in trying to stop horus, but by a tragic twist of fate were forced to betray the emperor. On these grounds it not hard for me to believe that the emperor would have tried to give them a second chance and recreat the legion as a chapter during on of the foundings. All speculation of course of all of which has just as much evidence and reason and logic as your points sir, just because you dont like them doesnt make them "absurd"

Really if GW can say that all of the imperiums technology is based off the dreams of a C'tan "ref mechanicum" a fact that was "hinted at" but never actually revealed intill recently, anything is possible in the 40k universe.

I personally dont believe its horus or magus but the way you kind of come off as insulting ("people trying to fit square blocks into round pegs" "absurd" Really? they are that dumb because they believe a theory with some descent evidence?)

P.S. The Salamanders gene-seed is fine and pure. They have dark skin and red eyes because of the radiation on nocturne not some flaw in there gene-seed.


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Ishamaelus wrote:See one thing I've never understood about the Blood Ravens situation.

Now the Blood Ravens are all Space Marines, and are thus required to submit a Gene-seed tithe to Terra, to ensure there is no corruption right?

How hard is it to simply cross reference all the genetic material they have to identify where the gene-seed originates/has highest matching markers? Surely if there was such a degree of corruption to this make this impossible why would the inquisition or the High Lords simply not order their destruction?

I know it's me being simple but it's bugged me for ages as to why it's not been asked before

P.S. Also, having read Legion, Kan is right. It's inferred that all the other SM chapters are too set in their ways, either following the Emperor Blindly, or already in Horus' pocket to be approached. Alpha Legion is trained to question everything, and view all sides of a situation and see the bigger picture, hence why the Cabal approach them.

I agree with all of this. But whos to say that there has to be corruption in the geneseed just because its based off a traitor legion? Also wouldnt this only be further evidence that the geneseed could be from a traitor primarch as the mechanicus has no generecord to cross referance with because they are all locked up!? bum bum BUUUUUMMMM!!!!

HiveTyrant25 wrote:Ok, I am making it clear to all of you right now. The Blood Ravens Primarch probably hasn't even been fully thought out yet.

The Blood Ravens were created for the THQ game Dawn of War by THQ! Other than maybe 2 articles about the Blood Ravens that GW has let out, and a handful of pics in army books etc., the Blood Ravens are not associated with GW and they wouldn't waste much time devising a background for them.

BL has released Blood Ravens Novels, but only to accompany a Dawn of War game. So don't look to GW for the answer, look to THQ. Since they probably don't think about it too hard, there are only hypothesis and theories that can be made about their origins. Based on above, Kan is correct about which Primarchs that you can weed out.

Just remember that this is all speculation, and until the real world creators of the BR tell you or hint very, very strongly at a candidate, all you can do is guess.

Aaaaaaannnnnddddd this ^ more than anything is what I think. Though I dont agree with Kans process of elimination