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well, it's the same feed the GK terminator models have.


it makes more sense to have a magazine in power armor then it does in terminator armor(which would have the space for ammo storage in the back pack)

jy2 wrote:The grey knights have some very good dreads. Take some dreads with dual TL-autocannons and pysbolt ammonition and you've got 4 twin-linked S8 shots each. On top of that, they have a chance to ignore shaken/stunned results and some decent anti-psyker defenses (-4 on their LD). I see a GK dread build as a very viable build and perhaps one of the best dread-spam builds out there.

Consider the following 2 builds:

GK Dread List #1
Coteaz

Vendread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 195
Vendread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 195
Vendread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 195

7x GK Strike Squad - 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemonhammer, 1x Halberd, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino - 225
7x GK Strike Squad - 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemonhammer, 1x Halberd, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino - 225
5x Acolyte Warriors - 4x Meltas, Chimera - 115
5x Acolyte Warriors - 4x Meltas, Chimera - 115
5x Acolyte Warriors - 4x Plasmas, Chimera - 115
5x Acolyte Warriors - 4x Plasmas, Chimera - 115

Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 135
Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 135
Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 135

2000pts

Dreads stay behind transports for cover.


GK Dread List #2
Coteaz

Vendread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 195
Vendread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 195
Vendread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt ammo - 195

5x GK Strike Squad - 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemonhammer, Las/plas Razorback - 200
5x GK Strike Squad - 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemonhammer, Las/plas Razorback - 200
5x Acolyte Warriors - 4x Meltas, Chimera - 115
5x Acolyte Warriors - 4x Meltas, Chimera - 115
4x Acolyte Warriors - 3x Plasmas, Chimera - 101
4x Acolyte Warriors - 3x Plasmas, Chimera - 101

Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator - 160
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator - 160
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator - 160

1997pts


Though the dreadknights aren't dreadnoughts, they're very good as anti-infantry, counter-assault units.


Though GK dreads don't have AV13, they have arguably the best ranged AT of all the dreads currently. List #1 has basically 24 TL S8 shots (of which half are BS5) and 3 venerable dreads. List #2 doesn't have as much AT but has better anti-infantry.

How do you think a GK dread list compare to other dread armies? How about compared to any all-comer's army in general? Is it a competitive build or just a 1-trick pony? Discuss.

The list is really really nasty, but has multiple serious hard counters.

Any list without mech is in good shape.

Math hammer 24 S8 AC versus AV3

8/9 hit 5/6 wound 1/3 fail armor saves=40/162=25%

V AV2=12.5%

Even without getting into the hard counters I'm going to say it's a fair fight if it goes up against most Nid lists or DOA.

Hard counter #1 Green Tide
2 big meks 2 KFF
150-180 shoota boys with Pclaw nobs
2 groups of Lootas
Snickrot and his kommandos

24 rifleman dread shots will kill 12 boys or 9 lootas per turn boys having a 5+ cover from the KFF lootas a 4+ from the boys
Turn 1 boys run, turn 2 they Waaagh unless the PAGK get out of their transports to storm bolter. Then all those shoota boys will shoot back.
The boys could care less about plasma or melta

Hard counter #2

3 Long Fang packs 15 ML
Logan
25 wolfguard terminators 5CML, 10 combi plas, 10 combi melta, and 5 chain fists split into 5 squads.

8 BS3 plasma guns and 2 squads of PAGK are not enough to kill the wolfguard. PAGK are very vulnerable to the krak spam. The plasma gun warriors are very vulnerable to the wolfguard's combi bolters. CC units have to get past the wolfguard to kill long fangs. 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks won't last 1 turn against the long fangs and wolfguard CML. The massed S8 AP4 firepower options are kill 6 long fangs or 3 wolf guard per turn.

Hard counter #3

25 BT Tac Terminators with 10 tank hunting CML and 5 chain fists. Rhino's/Razorbacks and plasma gun Chimeras go 1st, then the regular dreads get S9 krak. If dismounted warriors/GK advance towards the termies Storm bolters finish warriors with plasma guns, Krak against the PAGK. The riflemen dread will only pop 3 Tac Termies per turn. The rest of the army would only be 1 HQ and 3 troops, but the terminators alone could very possibly table the GK player.

Hard counter #4

40 Deathwing terminators, 30 as troops, 7 CML, 24 TH/SS 16 LC. Once again the riflemen dreads will pop 3 per turn, the Rhino/Razorbacks of the GK won't last long, and the plasma gunners will be dismounted.

Hard counter #5

Vulcan
20 TH/SS
3 MM/HF land speeders
Tac marines in drop pods

The last one is a lot closer to a fair fight, but once the termies teleport in I don't think the GK have anything to handle them. BS3 plasma and PAGK just can't stand up to TH/SS termies with MC weapons. The drop podding tac marines can also silence rifleman dreads by assaulting them. They can't win that fight, but they don't have to. All they have to do is hold them up long enough for the assault termies to rescue them. The land speeders are no bueno in this case as they would shoot their MM once then die on turn 1 or the turn they came in on, but realistically every vulcan list has them anyways.

Except that if he deploys right, those terminators won't be able to deploy anywhere close to his lines, given that he can use Warp Quake, and completely deny you getting anywhere close to him. Though that would require him to take a few more PAGK, or a cheap-o inquisitor with 3 Servo skulls.

1750 points on the spot GK Dreadspam. I'd gladly take this against any of schadenfreude's "hard counters" (none of which are good tournament armies, frankly they're all absolutely terribad) in the 1750 points limit.

-Coteaz
-Ven Dread, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Ven Dread, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Ven Dread, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts

P.S: This isn't the best GK army that can be made but it's a thread about Dreadnoughts so...

If you take a Grand Master or Draigo you can give some Dreads the ability to be scoring, adding another thing that GK Dreads can do that others can't...

Therion wrote:1750 points on the spot GK Dreadspam. I'd gladly take this against any of schadenfreude's "hard counters" (none of which are good tournament armies, frankly they're all absolutely terribad) in the 1750 points limit.

-Coteaz
-Ven Dread, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Ven Dread, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Ven Dread, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Flamers, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns
-Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts
-Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolts

P.S: This isn't the best GK army that can be made but it's a thread about Dreadnoughts so...

Any viable terminator list is only looking at AV11 razorbacks as a serious threat.

Loganwing, Deathwing, and BT CML spam would all stand an excellent chance against that. The dreads will only kill 3 termies/turn. The CML will tear through the razorbacks.

Logan wing: Kill 3 termies or 6 long fangs per turn. The other side will have at least 25 krak/turn to throw at the razorbacks. Even if you kill an entire long fangs squad on turn 1 how many razorbacks will be lost on the space wolf turn from 20 returning kraks? What's going to kill the termies after the razorbacks are destroyed?

Deathwing: Dreads are only going to kill 3 deathwing per turn, and DW can still afford at least 30 terminators. That means AV11 razorbacks, cortez, and flamerthrowers need to hold back the remaining 18 TH/SS terminators. DW will have 12 krak/turn to focus on the razorbacks as they advance towards the dreads, and they can shoot CML at razorbacks as they advance. The DW is going to average 4 pens and 2 immobilized/wrecks per turn against the razorbacks, not counting the effects of glances. The game is over once the deathwing reach the dreads.

Black Templar: Start the terminators off on the board. Keep the terminators in cover to protect them from the razorbacks on turn 1, advance them out of cover once the razorbacks are gone. Dreads will kill 3 termies per turn, razorbacks 6 LC=2 dead termies while they are in cover. Each squad of termies has 4S9 shots which should wreck a non venerable dread or razorback every turn. Turn 1 GK destroys 1 squad of termies from AC and LC, BT blows up 4 razorbacks with 16 CML shots. Turn 2 GK destroys 1 squad of termies (I'm being generous here), BT blows up 2 razorbacks and 1 dread with 12 CML shots. Turn 3 GK firepower kills 3 termies but the CML are probably still alive, BT blows up the 2 remaining non venerable dreads with 12 S9 Krak. By the start of turn 4 it's Cortez, 3 venerable dreads, and flamerthrowers versus 12 terminators with 12 S9 krak missiles per turn and 500+ points of BT troops/HQ.

No list is perfect, but the more a list spams the more a list becomes vulnerable to some other form of spam. The weakness of a 6 rifleman dread spamming list is it's very weak against a terminator spamming list which are going to become more popular with the recent DA/BT FAQ.

Your numbers are pretty hilarious. I'd also remind you that the game will be about the objectives, not whether you can kill 6 Razorbacks or not (Which is a lot tougher than you 'calculate'. 4 dead Razorbacks that can easily take advantage of 4+ cover saves, with 16 CML shots - What? ). In addition to this the above GK list is versatile and more effective against common tournament opponents than anything you posted.

I'd also ask you to re-think the way you use the term 'hard counter'. A hard counter is something that absolutely cannot be beat with whatever it is that its countering. Nothing you posted is anywhere close to that. A soft counter could be called an 'uphill battle' and I won't even concede to that assessment in the previous scenario.

Was calculating the CML at S9 for BT without cover, if razorbacks want to pop smoke it's best to pick another target. I don't see 6 rifle dreads and 6 razorbacks keeping 50% TLOS cover.

Loganwing and Deathwing are not unheard of.

The Psybolts on the dreads would be completely meaningless against loganwing/deathwing as everything in the army has a good armor of 2+ except long fangs in a loganwing. When facing SW it's 6 regular rifleman dreads and 6 razorbacks versus SW krak spam backed up with a bucketload of combi weapons.

Deathwing is the one I'm really curious about.
Belial+30 deathwing +3 ravenwing+MMattack bike. All the termies are troops, and can deploy on foot at the start of the battle. Firepower is down to 12 CML, so honestly I would probably choose to run the termies on turn 1 and go for a turn 2 assault reserving the bikes if going 2nd. When a squad gets down to half strength start walking back towards an objecting while shooting CML. I just don't see 6 rifle dreads and 6 razorbacks as enough firepower to handle deathwing.

Your "calculations" are still way off. A BT firing a "S 9" Krak missile has a 14.8148% chance to Destroy(wrecked or exploded) a razorback/shot, That would require 6.75 shots before you should expect 1 Destoryed result, so 4 CML termies firing at the same razorback is the minimum number to expect a kill on that Razorback. that means you would only get about 2 dead 'Backs/turn; while taking the full weight of 6 Psyfleman, 4 lascannons, + 4 t-l Plasma guns in return fire on the first turn, and 6 Psyfleman, 2 Lascannons + 2 Plasma guns on the second turn, followed by just the 6 Psyfleman + whatever infantry are left(I'm assuming at least half would be dead) on the third turn. That is all also assuming your CMLs were all alive past turn 1(not saying they would ALL be dead but some might) and that you get first turn.

schadenfreude wrote:Was calculating the CML at S9 for BT without cover, if razorbacks want to pop smoke it's best to pick another target. I don't see 6 rifle dreads and 6 razorbacks keeping 50% TLOS cover.


Deathwing is the one I'm really curious about.
Belial+30 deathwing +3 ravenwing+MMattack bike. All the termies are troops, and can deploy on foot at the start of the battle. Firepower is down to 12 CML, so honestly I would probably choose to run the termies on turn 1 and go for a turn 2 assault reserving the bikes if going 2nd. When a squad gets down to half strength start walking back towards an objecting while shooting CML. I just don't see 6 rifle dreads and 6 razorbacks as enough firepower to handle deathwing.

At 2000 points I'd probably go with a "dual wing" setup and Ravenwing "stuff"... 3 of the 75 point Typhoon class speeders (MM/TML), Ravenwing bike squadrons and attack bikes as troops with melta guns and MMs scouting/flanking and Belial and the lads setting up in cover or whatever with TH/SS and CML... Be an interesting fight I'd say :-)

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I played against a test GK army last night; three strike squads, a purifier squad, a jump infantry squad, librarian, assassin, and 3 riflemen dreads.

He stacked his infantry in front of the dreadnoughts to obscure them with 4+ saves, then had his librarian cast the +1 to cover psychic power, giving his dreadnoughts (all in range of his librarian) 3+ cover saves.

Dual twin-linked +1 strength Autocannon toting dreadnoughts with 3+ cover saves. *shudder*

Dashofpepper wrote:I haven't read through the whole thread, but I played against a test GK army last night; three strike squads, a purifier squad, a jump infantry squad, librarian, assassin, and 3 riflemen dreads.

He stacked his infantry in front of the dreadnoughts to obscure them with 4+ saves, then had his librarian cast the +1 to cover psychic power, giving his dreadnoughts (all in range of his librarian) 3+ cover saves.

Dual twin-linked +1 strength Autocannon toting dreadnoughts with 3+ cover saves. *shudder*

I think a balanced grey knights army is a better approach than spamming dreads to the point where an army only has 18T3 models as scoring units.

3 of those dreads will be a common sight as it leaves a ton of room available for purchasing other stuff.

I'm not sure I understand your post....

The list I was referring to just there had at least 30 T4 models in scoring units.

Im pretty sure he was thinking of the lists posted earlier that spammed the dreds, and had minimum troops.


I kindda want to play against some new GK, but at the same time, Im a bit worried of getting my teeth rammed down my throat.

DASH - how did you fair in that game btw? What army did you take DE?

He ran his DE. An 8 Venom, 3 Ravager and 1 Raider list w/a beast squad w/the Baron in it. We were on the way to a Tie most likely unless he rolled uber crappy in the assault phase we had to stop at due to wife aggro.

He made a few target priority mistakes and I made some decent mistakes of my own by not combat squading in an objective mission against vehicle spam DE along with a few others

Hulksmash wrote:He ran his DE. An 8 Venom, 3 Ravager and 1 Raider list w/a beast squad w/the Baron in it. We were on the way to a Tie most likely unless he rolled uber crappy in the assault phase we had to stop at due to wife aggro.

He made a few target priority mistakes and I made some decent mistakes of my own by not combat squading in an objective mission against vehicle spam DE along with a few others

If you're interested in knowing, Shane stepped in to finish in your stead. Here's what happened.

1. I killed your lone gunman and everything else got dumped into your last troop choice until they were dead.
2. My two troop choices over by my objective hunkered down in their 5+, and just to be safe, 4 of my venoms went over and made a wall between your dreads and my objective - which also happened to give those troops a 4+, turned into a 3+ for going to ground.

With 4+ cover on my vehicles, 3+ cover on my troops, and your dreads too far away to begin contemplating my objective, (and I got one of your dreads with my last trueborn unit before they died), the game ended 1-0. I realized as you were leaving and I was contemplating my moves that I could scoot a vehicle or two over to give my objective campers a 3+ cover.

=D

Nonetheless, its a nasty, nasty list.

Lol, I'm not surprised honestly. I saw it shaping up as a tie or a loss for me. Just the idiot mistake of not combat squading to start hurt like a bastard when I really started looking at it. Oh well, learned some stuff which is why I wanted to run that list. Got some tweaks in mind

As a side note it's likely every GK army I field will contain at least 2 if not 3 Dual TL-AC Dreads w/Pysbolt.

Looks good

Just had a battle against Witch Hunters. (Battle report-in-progress here). The list I used:

Castellan Crowe

Venerable Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

5x Purifier Squads - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino
5x Purifier Squads - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino
5x Purifier Squads - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino
5x Grey Knight Strike Squads - 1x Psycannon, Rhino - 150
5x Grey Knight Strike Squads - 1x Psycannon, Rhino - 150

Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



Let's just say I disabled all 9 of the my opponent's vehicles. Only 2 exorcists survived, immobilised and sans guns. Yes, I'm pretty sure competitive GK's will have to include rifleman dreads in their lists (though maybe not to the extent of my list). 4 twin-linked BS4/BS5 S8 shots is just too good. I don't think I missed with my BS5 vendreads all game!

like the list.


I really wonder why all the Crowe hate?

he seems like a solid character, makes some very tough(and not too expensive) units troops, and is decently killy in CC.

He is pretty cheap compared to other GK heros so he will be better at lower points.


Rending on 4s is pretty powerful. who cares if he only has a CCW.

This new codex is making me really want them to come out with a new tau codex. Because if they make that new codex as absurdly powerful (relative to the old) as they have their new codex...es. Then maybe we'll get a crudload more shooting strength. I would be content with S5 AP4 pulse rifles.

Grey Templar wrote:like the list.

I really wonder why all the Crowe hate?

he seems like a solid character, makes some very tough(and not too expensive) units troops, and is decently killy in CC.

He is pretty cheap compared to other GK heros so he will be better at lower points.

Rending on 4s is pretty powerful. who cares if he only has a CCW.

I think it is mainly due to the fact that he gives bonuses to the enemy and also because he is not a Independent Character. Thus, he may never join a squad a la Mehiston.

An0maly1 wrote:This new codex is making me really want them to come out with a new tau codex. Because if they make that new codex as absurdly powerful (relative to the old) as they have their new codex...es. Then maybe we'll get a crudload more shooting strength. I would be content with S5 AP4 pulse rifles.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what they do with the new Tau codex. The current one is still competitive in the hands of a capable general. I'm sure the new one will include cheaper suits and fire warriors. That seems to be the trend - you get more stuff or you get cheaper units (or both!). But you're probably going to have to wait until after necrons and witch hunters come out. Also, I can see them getting something like the Dread Knight - basically, a monstrous battlesuit unit.

I've been focusing so much on dialing in the right troop loadout, but as we all kow... thats not really the vital decision that has to get made. the units that support your army are vital, and the unit that goes and kills units is also vital.

There is no question that the dreadnought is the bomb in this codex, and there are at least three different ways to tweak some smallish, cheapish mechanized and useful troops choices into the list (purfiers in rhino, strike squad in rhino, henchmen in chimera/razorback)

The real question is... can a GK army just double up on support choices like jy2 is doing? Against IG or mech blood angels, absolutely, because again... the dreadnoughts are gross. But will they be able to draw less shooty armies in to them, and then once drawn in, will they be able to eliminate those units?

I can see purifiers doing it with cheap halberds and cleansing flame. I can see strike squads doing it a turn later after a great warp quake pushback, but they won't have the close combat ability of purifiers, and I can see henchmen doing it the old fashioned guard way. special weapon spam and hull mounted heavy flamers from chimeras.

So basically, i don't think there is a better choice in heavy support than the dread... and I know how I'd run my troops. But is there a better choice in elites and/or fast attack that can trump the venerable dread? Or is that the next best thing to the regular dread?

I feel that such a type of grey knight army - the dread-spam - will wear down opponents with volume of fire. Dreads of course will hurt any non AV14 vehicles. Psycannons can handle AV14 as long as they can get within range. Then focus-fire with dreads, rending psycannons and storm-bolters will wear down deathstar units like terminators, TWC, Nobs, etc.

This type of list can easily deal with shooty armies, but the question is how does it deal with assaulty lists? The answer lies with the dreads. Their purpose is not only to shoot down enemy transports/units, but also to lock down uber-assault units. Then the grey knights with their force weapons and will counter-assault those units to help finish them off. 6 dreads are hard to take down, even in assault against Powerfist terminators, and especially with 3 venerable ones. The trend of good armies nowadays isn't an uber-assault unit. Rather, it is the resources to delay or tarpit those units so that the rest of your army can deal with the rest of your opponent's armies. Tyranids have tervigon-spawned termagant screens, IG have infantry units which could be made stubborn with commissars, DE has FNP wracks, Witch Hunters have Spirit of the Martyr celestians and seraphims and MEQ armies have their dreads. Also, grey knights have very cheap Coteaz-led Inquisitional henchmen they could use if needed as well.

Dread-spam grey knights are more viable than the other dread armies because unlike furioso/DC dreads or ironclads, they can actually do damage from range on Turn 1. The other dread armies need to take the time to get close to the enemy before they can really do any damage. Also, Fortitude is a huge benefit for them. So far in all battles, I've been able to ignore all stunned/shaken results due to Fortitude....and that lets my dreads keep on firing.

And once the enemy gets close, our dreads don't need to eliminate them. All they need do is lock them in combat so that our grey knights can either go after objectives, kill the other enemy units or counter-charge those units locked in assault with the dreads.

Vendreads are by no means necessary in a Grey Knights army. They are but one of many builds. To me, it is also largely a matter of preference. If you like purifiers but don't want Crowe for your HQ, then you use heavy dreads and purifiers in the elite slot. If you rather prefer purgation units, then save your heavy slots for them and take vendreads instead. Me, personally I think that they are good enough for me to spam them using both FOC slots. But I suppose time and experience will tell.

I currently agree with you about taking 6.

I like purifiers, but I can have them as troops.

I don't like purgations, when I can have purifiers as troops (essentially the same unit in terms of firepower)

dreadknights aren't bad, but they don't wow me either.

Paladins proved to be major fail against mech spam... Dude, where is my storm shield?

jy2 wrote:Just had a battle against Witch Hunters. (Battle report-in-progress here). The list I used:

Castellan Crowe

Venerable Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

5x Purifier Squads - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino
5x Purifier Squads - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino
5x Purifier Squads - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino
5x Grey Knight Strike Squads - 1x Psycannon, Rhino - 150
5x Grey Knight Strike Squads - 1x Psycannon, Rhino - 150

Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



Let's just say I disabled all 9 of the my opponent's vehicles. Only 2 exorcists survived, immobilised and sans guns. Yes, I'm pretty sure competitive GK's will have to include rifleman dreads in their lists (though maybe not to the extent of my list). 4 twin-linked BS4/BS5 S8 shots is just too good. I don't think I missed with my BS5 vendreads all game!

5 scoring MEQ units, dreads, and purifiers. That's a nasty list.

Shep wrote:

Paladins proved to be major fail against mech spam... Dude, where is my storm shield?

I ran two Super Friends units against my buddies Dual Prince/PM/Oblit army----but I included Coteaz and Operation Meatshield in front of them. 40 pts for a squad of 10 4+ Storm Shields . Lost some Pals to Oblit fire-----but 8 moving Psycannons is 32 Str. 7 Rending shot laughs. They are simply immune to small arms fire. Plus Scouting + Coteaz Seize reroll helps you possibly secure 1st turn so you don't get alpha'd too badly.

I do agree though----a storm shield option would be nice. As it was, he made the mistake of firing at Superman's squad first----which allowed me to have him soak up a hit or two.

I'm still going to run them----yeah I'll lose against Razor/Guard gun lines but I hate those armies anyways.



I still debate dropping Coteaz-------adding a Libby with Shrouding and trying to 1/2 hug cover all game. That's a 3++ essentially and 8 Psycannons makes a pretty solid firing line.

Venerable Psyflemen suffer from several major issues, the main one being that they cost 200 points. Much of that cost differential goes to upgrades that you don't even use-- +1 WS and +1 BS can be big on normal dreads but do almost nothing for the "rifleman" (Mortis-pattern) configuration. Overall, 3x ven psyfleman 3x regular psyfleman is cute and all, but you just spent half your points on suppression/anti-transport units and don't have a real army.

Dismissing Paladins at this stage seems extremely hasty. Storm shields don't seem necessary in Codex: Grey Knights-- not when you have Shrouding Librarians distributing easy 3+ cover.

200 points for essentially 4 missile launchers that have a "once in a blue moon's" chance of missing seems undercosted to me. especially when it can't be stunned into uselessness.


We are talking high point games, but thats what is the norm.

you might not be able to go for 6 Dreds all the time, but you could easily do 3-4 dreds at a time.

'Ard Boyz will likely see a bunch of GK Riflemen lists showing up.

In 2.5k I think venerable psyflemen are more valid, but so are lots of other lists. Fortitude is generally overrated as well. It is a great boon-- don't get me wrong-- but it is very different from being immune to shaken/stunned results. I can see 2-3 standard Dreadnoughts being core, but I don't think the Venerables are going to be seen in the most competitive GK lists, at least not in 1850-2k.