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I am not that impressed with Grey Knights. Every army is uber hyped prior to the release... Nothing new here.

The more I am looking at it and thinking about it; the more I am coming to realize that Grey Knights are much more of a "Tool-Box" army than any of the more recent ones.

What I mean by this is that SW, BA, and DE; have small selections of Sledgehammers, and most armies consist of players Spamming 1 or 2 weights of Sledgehammer, thinking that will work as a Multi-tool.

Grey Knights will force players to bring a bit more variety in their Lists.

Spamming Hencmen with Coteaz? You had better bring several differently outfitted squads in order to deal with everything.

Pure GK: better take a mix of units.

GK strike squads don't necessarily suck, but they aren't that great either.

For a base 20pts per model, you get an assault 2, 24" range, str4 ap5 weapon and a 1A force weapon.

It's not terrible. It's not great. It's meh. Start adding psybolts, psycannon, halberds and other upgrades and they get expensive. For my basic marine troop unit, I want to get 10 guys plus transport for about 200pts kitted out.

You cannot do that with GK strike squads. No way. No how. Period. Doesn't make them bad, but it sure doesn't make them good. It makes them...meh.

shealyr wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

I really like this statement.

GK seems to be one of the first books that looks to perfectly counter MEQ books, but will struggle against a lot of Xenos.

I forsee Eldar, DE, IG, and to a lesser extent, Tau, all initially having a lot of success against GK. Yes, even against OMGTHIRTYINCHSCOUTINGDREADKNIGHTSSSSSS. The same tools people have been using to kill MC's will work against the Dreadknight: Plasma, Lascannons, Melta. It only has a 5+ invul and 4W, which means (GASP!) that it takes the exact same number of wounds to kill it as it does to kill a Trygon! Sure, it's more survivable against Krak Missiles, but in the end, fielding 3 Dreadknights means they aren't taking any S8 Riflemen Dreads or Land Raiders, which means Terminators are either walking, Deep Striking, or taking a Stormraven, none of which are a great option if a forth of your points are tied up in MC's downfield.

Just saying, venerable riflemen are elites. Dreadknights and interceptors who are granted scouts can scout-shunt and charge on the first turn.

Deleted

imweasel wrote:It's not terrible. It's not great. It's meh. Start adding psybolts, psycannon, halberds and other upgrades and they get expensive. For my basic marine troop unit, I want to get 10 guys plus transport for about 200pts kitted out.

You cannot do that with Vanilla marines either; 170pt Base 10 man Squad; even if you "kitted out" version is Flamer and Missile Launcher, your Sgt is naked soe what give him a power Sword and melta Bombs? That is 190 points, then we add the Rhinoand we have 225 pts.

Lets revisit the Strike Squad shall we? 200 points base 10 man unit, 20 points for Guns(assuming the Choice will either be Psilencer+Incinerator, or Paired Psycannons); And generally Either 50ish Points for Weapons upgrades, or 30+Psybolt amunition(so 50 in upgrades here). That is 270 points, plus a 40 point Rhino for 310 points.

Differences in combat: GK are more maneuverable, they can move and Fire their all Str5 2-shot 24" range guns and Fire the S7 rending psycannons(sure if you went with CC oriented Strike Squad they will only be S4 guns, and may or may not include some Special ranged weapons, but I will get to them)Heck they may not even want the Rhino(The mech game is nice, but not necessary; especially with GKs) Relying instead on other units to crack transports so they can get at the juicy meat inside. At Range Grey Knights Pump out more Fire than Tac marines, & while moving; in close range(within 12) they equate in general firepower, but gry Knights get more Heavy fire, still while moving.

CC: Grey knights get the same # of attacks as Tac Marines(1 less actually unless 2 of the Weapon upgrades was Falchions, which still have their Storm Bolter BTW), but all of their attacks ignore the tac marines Armor save while only 3(4 on the charge) of the Tac marines do likewise vs the GK. 4 PW attacks(assuming the Tacs charged, which means the GK Player Screwed up bad, forgetting he is more mobile) means that 2 are expected to hit, and 1 wound. that is 1 Grey knight Lost; 18 other attacks(assuming Halberds were not taken as CCW upgrades) mean that 9 are expected to hit, 4.5 to wound, 1.5 Dead GKs; the 8 PW attacks in return(along with 2 normal) means the tac Marines win the combat by 1/6th of a Wound; of course this also assumes that the GKs either chose not to use, or Failed the test for, hammerhand. that is all tipping the scales in favor of the tac marines; And reducing the Cost of the GK unit to 30 more points than them(no weapon upgrades at all).

Kommissar Kel wrote:You cannot do that with Vanilla marines either; 170pt Base 10 man Squad; even if you "kitted out" version is Flamer and Missile Launcher, your Sgt is naked soe what give him a power Sword and melta Bombs? That is 190 points, then we add the Rhinoand we have 225 pts.

Or don't give your non-CC squad CC upgrades and now you're at 205 with rhino. Or you're playing SW and get 10 GH plus dual melta plus rhino for 180 pts. Etc.

Lets revisit the Strike Squad shall we? 200 points base 10 man unit, 20 points for Guns(assuming the Choice will either be Psilencer+Incinerator, or Paired Psycannons); And generally Either 50ish Points for Weapons upgrades, or 30+Psybolt amunition(so 50 in upgrades here). That is 270 points, plus a 40 point Rhino for 310 points.

And 105 pionts is a LOT more points. In the same way a 1500 list is a LOT more than a 1,000 list.

@Kommisar

I usually pay 205 or 210pts for my tac marines.

I usually pay 200 for my GH.

Those are kitted out as much as I care to kitt them out.

For me, that's 'about 200pts'. PAGK's do come close to that if you don't take a transport or very limited upgrades (like just psy ammunition). It still doesn't fit my needs.

It's true that PAGK's pump out more firepower at 18-30" than tac squads for anti-infantry, which in the current mechanized environment doesn't mean that much.

To me, PAGK's don't 'suck' and are not 'broken'. They are meh.

Nurglitch wrote:So learn how to screen, or hide in transports, or play reserves, or even deploy your own anti-deepstrike stuff like the Land Speeder Storm. Sure, the new Grey Knights are shiny, but they still have to buy you dinner first.

Many armies have no way of doing one or more vof those. Anti-DS rules are quite rare. Transports lower than AV13 are very easily popped by S8 Rifleman shots and even psycannons. And of course, some armies like nids, daemons and Necrons have no transports.

Yes, there's usually a counter. That doesn't mean it's a good one.

Sephyr wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:So learn how to screen, or hide in transports, or play reserves, or even deploy your own anti-deepstrike stuff like the Land Speeder Storm. Sure, the new Grey Knights are shiny, but they still have to buy you dinner first.

Many armies have no way of doing one or more vof those.

Yes but every army can do 1 or 2 of those thing. Thats the point learn to use what your armys got.

10 PAGKs,for 2x psycannons, psy bolt ammo,rhino = 280. That is pretty much how I would run them, might skip the psybolt ammo, but being S5 is pretty good. The CC options aren't needing in an effectively shooting squad, and if you need more than force weapons on 10 guys then you aren't fighting the right units with the right units. The psycannons are in the squad since they can fire 4-8 S7 Shots out of the firing points. Might add a 5 point warp stabilization field if running a teleport librarian with beacon.

I run my regular marines at 205 pt range. I usually take 3 units, so with GKs I would probably just run 2. The firepower of those 2 units is pretty strong, and they can assault better than regular marines, so its probably close to a wash when it comes killing and surviving (easier to survive when your target is dead, and you can safely assault things, which tacs can't really do).

Razorback squads: 5 guys, incinerator, riding in either a las/plas, or assault cannon with psybolt ammo, which is 200-205. Pretty pricey TBH. The fortitude will keep it firing longer than other armies, and the guy inside are much scarier than what other lists bring. Is it worth the pt premium compared to other books? I'm betting yes, but will limit yet again how many models you take (and it isn't even a tooled out squad).

There is also the option of taking 10 guys with razorback, and combat squading them. The guys with the psycannons or incinerators group into the same squad, while the stormbolters do their own thing guarding home objectives or something. Very pricey way to run them, but I've had decent results with vanilla marines running like this.

Deadshane1 wrote:
One character in joined to the unit activates hammerhand that effects the unit?....the rest kick off force weapons. Not that difficult to do both if you have to. It's academic however. Multi-wound models dead even w/o the extra str....force weapons, on basic troops...Not good? Don't make me laugh.

A little off-topic but you can't cast the psychic powers separately. The Brotherhood of Psykers (or something similar) special rule states that you pick one power for the squad to use, and the whole squad uses the same one with just the one psychic test.

Rephistorch wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
One character in joined to the unit activates hammerhand that effects the unit?....the rest kick off force weapons. Not that difficult to do both if you have to. It's academic however. Multi-wound models dead even w/o the extra str....force weapons, on basic troops...Not good? Don't make me laugh.

A little off-topic but you can't cast the psychic powers separately. The Brotherhood of Psykers (or something similar) special rule states that you pick one power for the squad to use, and the whole squad uses the same one with just the one psychic test.

he had said that an Attached IC was "casting" hammerhand; that makes the Whole unit +1 Str, and the Unit(Strike Squad) has not yet cast a Power; after the unit scores their first unsaved wound; they are free to activate their NFWs. if it was A Librarian attached to the Strike squad the Librarian is free to activate his NFW as well, or cast a different power that turn

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The more I am looking at it and thinking about it; the more I am coming to realize that Grey Knights are much more of a "Tool-Box" army than any of the more recent ones.

What I mean by this is that SW, BA, and DE; have small selections of Sledgehammers, and most armies consist of players Spamming 1 or 2 weights of Sledgehammer, thinking that will work as a Multi-tool.

Grey Knights will force players to bring a bit more variety in their Lists.

Spamming Hencmen with Coteaz? You had better bring several differently outfitted squads in order to deal with everything.

Pure GK: better take a mix of units.

In my opinion both BA and SW are also both tool box armies as well. They both have lots of awesome options/wargear for many units that make them more effective overall at what each unit does best - to me that is a big part of what a good codex should have. It's all about finding the right combinations to create an overall deadly army. I'd even go so far as to say that dark eldar are also in many ways another tool box army - dark eldar I think have mostly been overlooked by the majority following the public release of the codex. They have many options that are very useful versus a wide assortment of armies - just take the venom blade as a perfect example... It's adds a good bit of oomph to assaults for units like Warriors and helps to win versus units like guardsmen and gaunts, plus the venom blade is a real bargain at only five points. That's how I see it.

I have been playing around trying to make some GK lists and the numbers just add upp fast. If you want a full squad of interceptors that is 260 points and you have not yet come to the part where you buy upgrades for them. It is insane.

Good luck staying 24" away from a Grey Knight army that has:

all the transports everybody else does
1 Stormraven aka fastest assault vehicle in the game
2 everything deep strikes
3 Fastest MC in the game (Dreadknight)
4 Fastest Infantry in the game (Interceptor Squads)
5 the ability to move and shoot
6 teleporting psychic power

lol

1: Fragile eggs-in-basket unit that is far from powerful. Even the S8 missiles BA get are removed. You load a dread and a troop squad into a stormraven and you end up with a 550p unit that has AV12.
Wow, truly overpowered...not.

2: Piecemeal yes. Meaning of your 5 DS squads (since that is all you can afford) 2-3 will come in and face the whole enemy army and not even have any shooting resilence to balance that up with. Wow.

3: A t6 MC being powerful, since when? Last time I checked people laugh at winged deamon princes and nid monsters with better saves. Dark eldar poison weapons and lance spam cares not the least bit for a 200+ point T6 MC with super crappy shooting options.

4: Sucks. You pay 280 points for a glorified assault squad that goes down just as easy to shooting as a 150p grey hunter squad.

5: At 24´range only yes with half the weapon load being useless (that heavy psilencer crap). How hard is it for the mech builds of today to stay out of 24´?

6: Piecemeal again and with zero shooting protection that doesnt need terrain, good scatter and luck to rely on.


Oh and you forgot, one 100p psychic hood or one 15p runes of warding will nullify half the GK army.
You also forgot the GK codex have no playable (competitive) named ICs to speak of. Thats rather sad.

Pyriel- wrote:

Good luck staying 24" away from a Grey Knight army that has:

all the transports everybody else does
1 Stormraven aka fastest assault vehicle in the game
2 everything deep strikes
3 Fastest MC in the game (Dreadknight)
4 Fastest Infantry in the game (Interceptor Squads)
5 the ability to move and shoot
6 teleporting psychic power

lol

1: Fragile eggs-in-basket unit that is far from powerful. Even the S8 missiles BA get are removed. You load a dread and a troop squad into a stormraven and you end up with a 550p unit that has AV12.
Wow, truly overpowered...not.

2: Piecemeal yes. Meaning of your 5 DS squads (since that is all you can afford) 2-3 will come in and face the whole enemy army and not even have any shooting resilence to balance that up with. Wow.

3: A t6 MC being powerful, since when? Last time I checked people laugh at winged deamon princes and nid monsters with better saves. Dark eldar poison weapons and lance spam cares not the least bit for a 200+ point T6 MC with super crappy shooting options.

4: Sucks. You pay 280 points for a glorified assault squad that goes down just as easy to shooting as a 150p grey hunter squad.

5: At 24´range only yes with half the weapon load being useless (that heavy psilencer crap). How hard is it for the mech builds of today to stay out of 24´?

6: Piecemeal again and with zero shooting protection that doesnt need terrain, good scatter and luck to rely on.


Oh and you forgot, one 100p psychic hood or one 15p runes of warding will nullify half the GK army.
You also forgot the GK codex have no playable (competitive) named ICs to speak of. Thats rather sad.

LOL x 2

1: Stormravens=weak. What game are you playing when a dreadnought and 6 Force Weapon terminators in a complex squad are charging you from a vehicle that just had a 3+ Flat out cover save,l spat out enough firepower to open any vehicle in the game, pepper the unit it's charging with str4 then kill the crap out of it with Str5 Power/Force Weapons..possibly at initiative 10 with Grenades. Yea...that sucks....bad, I mean, wtf is that going to hurt. Might as well be running Ogryns. Duh. (Plus, have you read what this unit can do to YOUR psychic defense? I didnt think so)

2. Read the Dex. Psychic Communion. Know what you're talking about.

3. Better saves than a 2+/5++ in the Nid and Chaos Codex for MC's? Where pray tell? You right, poison is awesome against armour 2+. Meanwhile, while you're trying to drag down these 2+ save monsters with poison (you got one turn to do it by the way....they're faster than your DE) The rest of the army is knocking you out of the sky with basic infantry weapons. You know, the basic infantry that you're probably REALLY shooting at? B/C of the 3+ armour save and actual chance to kill something? You do know that the Grey Knight dex is pretty much OVERLOADED with stuff that kills DE right? Pick a good matchup next time. DE are anything but the rock to the Grey Knight scissors. Yea, DE just KILL GK's, cept for the fact they get bent over the fence with psychic powers the whole game....whats that? You can make me make a ld check or a guy out of each squad dies? GL getting to me and forcing me to make a ld 10 check. Meanwhile...I'll be shooting you out of the sky. (and I actually PLAY DE!)

4. Interceptors go down as easy to shooting as Grey Hunters. Wow, there's a news flash. Obvious much? More obvious for you, they're shootier by huge amounts, they come with some of the best HtH weapons in the game, and they're the fastest troopers in the game...without the aid of a transport. Yes, they're more expensive than Grey Hunters. I know its a big surprise to you, its this thing called "game balance".

5. 30, 36, or shunt + 24" ranges actually. Assault Weapons? I'd say that its pretty hard to stay away from that when you can command the middle of the playing feild with foottroopers w/o fear.

6.Again, read the codex, know what you're talking about. It's easier to appear smart that way. Psychic power-Summoning. Allows your Libby to teleport a unit (including certain vehicles) to within 6" of him. Oh "looky looky", Libbys can get Teleport Homers as standard equiptment. You think that might be useful? Hmmmm?

Bring your psychic hood....maybe you'll get lucky and stop half of my psychic powers...you know everything I have on the board casts them right? Oh, you brought a libby to hood my stuff? Lets see if the points you spent get you any psychic powers of your own. Probably not, considering MY psychic hood and Aegis. You see....Grey Knights RULE the psychic phase in this game. They're designed that way. Unfortunatly, you cannot hood my psybolts, psycannon, power weapons, shunts and all the other little toys that I've got.

....oh, wait a minute, nevermind. My Vindicare (buried behind my troops with a 2+ cover save that you can get if you look at the dex closely enough) Just picked out your offending psychic defence and killed him. He's lucky my Culuxes or shunting Dreadknight (owaitaminute they suck) got to him first.

No IC's worth a damn...tell that to the horde of Draigo Fans out there. Whatever he hits, he destroys. Even Rocky knows that. Meanwhile, who needs a named IC when I can bring a Generic....

WS-6
BS-6
Str-4
T-4
W-3
I-5
A-3
Ld-10
Sv-2+/4++

Who has a Str 5 force weapon in combat, (he's a level 2 you know) A Range 24" Str7 4 shot rending weapon at range, has a 2+ Invuln in close combat that doesnt go away after rolling a '1', Lowers your T by 1 when he charges you (after getting out of my Stormraven that you think sucks) and rr's one dice to hit and one dice to wound. He can't be bargained with, he can't be reasoned with. He'll find your IC, it's what he does, it's ALL he does! He'll find Mephiston/Dante/Ghazkull/whoever and rip his friggin' heart out!

...oh btw, he also makes d3 of my units scout, take objectives like troops, or RR all 1's to wound. HELL! Why bring 1 when you can bring 2 at twice the price? You're named IC's can't do that.

I've said it b4, I'll say it again, read the codex. Know what you're talking about.

Well there pretty good but could be changeed in real dex.

Deadshane1 wrote:1: Stormravens=weak. What game are you playing when a dreadnought and 6 Force Weapon terminators in a complex squad are charging you from a vehicle that just had a 3+ Flat out cover save,l spat out enough firepower to open any vehicle in the game, pepper the unit it's charging with str4 then kill the crap out of it with Str5 Power/Force Weapons..possibly at initiative 10 with Grenades. Yea...that sucks....bad, I mean, wtf is that going to hurt. Might as well be running Ogryns. Duh. (Plus, have you read what this unit can do to YOUR psychic defense? I didnt think so).

Storm Raven only gets a 4+ from flat out. It's basically a smoked Chimera.

No doubt DK Termis plus Dread will smash any single unit they charge (esp with Libby support), but it's still an 800 point flying Chimera. If you get first turn, yeah you're fine. Go second, you're forced to put it into Reserves and have the joy of a 1200 v 2000 game for two to three turns. Go first and get the initiative stolen on you, and you're down a Storm Raven.

That all IS in the real dex.

Deadshane1 wrote:
No IC's worth a damn...tell that to the horde of Draigo Fans out there. Whatever he hits, he destroys. Even Rocky knows that. Meanwhile, who needs a named IC when I can bring a Generic....

I agree with everything you said, but I feel that I have to add: Inquisitor Lord Torquemeda Coteaz is BAD? REALLY? "Ohnoez, there's no characters who can kill Mephiston in 1 on 1 (which there is BTW) so everything must SUCK!"...

Pretty sure he's putting a libby in the SR w/the squad. Meaning it's got a 3+ Cover instead of 4. And since he casts it in your shooting phase moving flat out doesn't affect it.

Funny idea, A wing of 3 Storm Ravens, all turbo-ing, and all w/a 3+ save. Be kinda cool. Not saying competitive. But it's a reason for me to get so SR's for my GK's

Deadshane I'd like to see that list of yours that has scouting Dreadknights, a Grand Master, mass Interceptors, full size Grey Knight units, tons of that shooting you're raving about, a Librarian, Paladins, a Stormraven, a Techmarine and a Vindicare, because it sounds like an awful army even Jervis Johnson's kid would beat. Put that list of yours into 1750 points so we can see what it looks like.

sourclams wrote:
Storm Raven only gets a 4+ from flat out. It's basically a smoked Chimera.

Shrouding adds Stealth to any unit within 6". Pretty much manditory to get a libby in the 'Raven.

No doubt DK Termis plus Dread will smash any single unit they charge (esp with Libby support), but it's still an 800 point flying Chimera. If you get first turn, yeah you're fine. Go second, you're forced to put it into Reserves and have the joy of a 1200 v 2000 game for two to three turns. Go first and get the initiative stolen on you, and you're down a Storm Raven.

My point was that its hardly a sucky unit....people are winning lots of high level Indie GT tounament games with these things.

...and you cannot live in fear of someone stealing the initiative from you....and it's not something your opponent can count on anyway. (barring Vect, even then....)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:Deadshane I'd like to see that list of yours that has scouting Dreadknights, a Grand Master, mass Interceptors, full size Grey Knight units, tons of that shooting you're raving about, a Librarian, Paladins, a Stormraven, a Techmarine and a Vindicare, because it sounds like an awful army even Jervis Johnson's kid would beat. Put that list of yours into 1750 points so we can see what it looks like.

I dont remember saying that my army list has ALL this stuff. However, the Grey Knight dex is very toolboxy and capbable of everything I mentioned.

ALSO

I was responding to a post....apparently (according to your logic here) the guy I was responding to has Dark eldar, chaos and tyranid monstrous creatures, and marine and eldar psykers all in his list. At least I stayed in one Codex.

Please follow the thread better next time Therion.

Libby stealth ftw...

Deadshane1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Storm Raven only gets a 4+ from flat out. It's basically a smoked Chimera.

Shrouding adds Stealth to any unit within 6". Pretty much manditory to get a libby in the 'Raven.

No doubt that adding more points/support to a unit will make it better, but while even BA storm ravens have pretty pricy loadouts, GK can totally break the bank. Libby plus Purifiers plus Storm Raven plus Dreadnought is pushing 800 points easy. If you go a little nuts on upgrades... closer to 900.

I don't think people will actually run the Dreadnought because their real strength looks to be shooting psybolted autocannons from the backfield, so leave that off and it's 700-800 pts "only".

You can save a few points by sticking with Termis instead of Purifiers, which could cut overall costs by 50 pts or so, but then you don't have nearly as impressive an assault unit.

The basic point stands, though, if you go first you're fine, if you go second you're having the joy of a 1300 pt fight versus 2000 pts of stuff for a few turns. That's not a build that I'd expect people to be running consistently. At most, Storm Raven plus a 200-250 pt squad for decent CC ability at a total cost of 500 or fewer is probably the sweet spot.

sourclams wrote:

It's absolutly a lychpin of the army, one that can be targetted. It's still an effective unit...and doesnt "suck".

Still....if you get first turn you start on the board, move, flat out and try to 'Shroud' and weather the storm while your other stuff (however little amount it may be) attempts to support it.

If you go second, you reserve it and do the same. Libby's power goes off during the opponent's shooting phase.

If you get stolen on....lucky opponent. It happens, but it's not worth altering your game plan for.


Me personally? I prefer a smoked and stealthed LR if I'm doing the "all in one basket" thing. (which I try not to)

Please follow the thread better next time Therion.

I'm following just fine. People are pointing out how expensive and vulnerable GK armies can be and all you're doing is countering with 'then I'd have this in my army - then I'd have this - then I'd have that - then I'd do this' which is the standard of discussion you hear at GW shops from the 10 year olds at the painting table. This was apparent already on page 1 when you decided you had shooty GK that walk to middle and table mechanised armies with storm bolters.

You just keep driving around with that loaded 1000 point Stormraven while shooting with the Techmarined Vindicare and see how far that'll take you.

rovian wrote:Well there pretty good but could be changeed in real dex.

The codex is out, bro.

GK Strike squads are pricy. 20-ish points for an MEQ is always going to be rough, as Chaos players know well. Sometimes it's worth it; PMs are very good, and Berserkers are pretty good, though they lack meltas or other decent antitank guns, so you need other units to pick up their slack in that department, and I never field more than a single unit of them.

GK Strike squads with psycannons for transport-popping are probably viable, but the cost is really getting up there. More than I pay for a squad of 'Zerks (213 for eight with fist champ, icon), and comparable to a full-size squad of PMs, which are much more durable.

I think GKs will be competitive, but the points cost of the Troops is definitely going to make it tricky. I don't think I'd field more than a unit or two of the Strikes, depending on what the other options are.