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mwnciboo wrote:I don't really think in total numbers but the size of Units seem wrong. I always think the numbers they talk about in the BL always sound wrong.

Imperial guard Regiments at 5000? Are you kidding? 5000 is a Modern Division. IG Regiments would not last long in Combat given their casualty rates, one major engagement and they would be combat ineffective.

Casuality rate = WWI or = BL ?

Size will vary, an armored regiment may have lower numbers at the frontline parts of the regiment but needs more ressources.
So a tank based regiment may "employ" less combatants in their IG companies but keeps lots of munitorum personnel busy...
Where infantry based regiments run with a massive headcount in combatants.

Example:

A)
Company > 5-7 x 10 Tanks = 50+ Tanks = 50 x 5 = 250 crew. Other personnel ~ 50-100. Thus 350 ~ per company.
Regiment > company x 5-10 = 1750-3500.

Are 5000 to few in this example?

B)
Company > 5-10 platoons = 400-2000 combatants. Other personnel ~ 50. Thus 500 +x per company.
Regiment > company x 5 - 10 = 2500 minimum / 10.000 max - 5000 minimum / 20.000 max.

Anything between 10k to 20k for a single formation of the IG seems ok.

C)
Codex IG page 9:
18th Valhalla = 120.000 ( infantry )
24th vostroya = 1500 ( heavy mech )

Regiment = 3-20 companys = 3-6 platoons each.

Until GW releases the "tactica imperialis",
where the exact formula for each type of IG regiment can be found, we won't ever know for sure.

Yeah so 20 - 30,000 seems about right for a IG Infantry Regiment.

10,000 for a Mechanised IG Regiment.

5,000 for a Tank Regiment e.g about 800 Tanks and vehicles.

I have often wondered how many Imperial Bureaucrats you could fit on the head of a pin.

Still, it would be really hard to quantify anything without grand sweeping conjecture. Even the Astartes figures are ambiguous at best. We don't really know how many Chapters there are. There are figures that mention the total numbers of Chapters, and the total number of marines in each, but even then the fluff indicates these are educated guesses at best.

With a galactic empire where the total number of imperial worlds are numbered at about 1 million one can only guess how large the bureaucracy is. Even considering this figure of Imperial worlds it has been mentioned in the fluff that the Imperium is still spread thin amongst the stars, with vast areas of the galaxy under imperial control still unexplored.

I have to wonder if certain 'hallowed' departments even on Terra itself haven't a clue how many individuals exist. Not to mention the serious temporal difficulties involved in space travel may play havoc with these numbers.

I imagine the numbers aren't fixed for any department and are in a constant state of flux.

Even so, many of the numbers we think of in our present time simply don't correlate well with the universe of 40k. Even on our own world we have fought wars where millions upon millions of soldiers (let alone civilians) have been killed. The scale of death and destruction that can be experienced by a galactic empire in what would be considered a small engagement would still be beyond our comprehension. Yet they happen over and over.

The statement that 'you will not be missed' is imho the best quote for the 40k universe and says it all.

This all plays well for GW as they can modify the fluff with abandon and still keep some semblance of reality. A forgotten chapter, an Inquisitor returns from some long forgotten crusade, or even a unit of Sisters of Battle return to Terra after having been lost in the warp for decades. Anything is possible at this scale.

mwnciboo wrote:I don't really think in total numbers but the size of Units seem wrong. I always think the numbers they talk about in the BL always sound wrong.

Imperial guard Regiments at 5000? Are you kidding? 5000 is a Modern Division. IG Regiments would not last long in Combat given their casualty rates, one major engagement and they would be combat ineffective.

I always thought of Guard Regiments of 20,000 minimum (about Corps or Army Group size) I actually figure Regiments would be much bigger 200,000 etc.

edit: IIRC aren't there 666 Grey Knights at anyone time?

5,000 is a modern brigade in many armies even. Most U.S. divisions for instance are 20,000+. I agree with the 200,000 figure for regiments, an entire regiment would probably lose half its manpower in a single engagement if it were 5,000.

However, I've heard that the size of a regiment can vary from a few thousand to even 500,000. I doubt the Imperium can maintain standardization like that so it makes sense that they would vary in size greatly.

it's probably heavily dependent on the type of regiment.


a Catachan regiment is probably smaller then a standard regiment because they need to maintain communications with the unit while crawling through dense jungle. being smaller makes that easier.


i also have rarely heard of conflicts that involved only 1 regiment. if it only needs one regiment to fix then it probably isn't a fight worth hearing.


Armageddon has several hundred regiments fighting on it, Tyranid invasions are responded by the same numbers too.

Average IG Regiment have 3 - 5.000.000 man + support stuff.

There is more than 1.000.000 Space Marines serving the Imperium.

AS for PDF, they must always have 100 - 500.000 active solders. In case of war PDF becomes every man, woman and child who can hold a gun.

Inquisiton has numerous forces, including 3000+ GK.

SoB number in millions, depending on order.

Imperial Navy number almost as IG.

etc......

Somehow, the lack of faith in the abilities of the emperors hammer and therefore in our glorious Imperial Guard is disturbing.

1) organization is standardized per GW fluff. Not exactly but there seems to be a guestimate power-level and this is the way
the IoM compares regiments. Could see the issue there, as vastly different sizes would cause problems in transport capacity and supplies
since IN transports would still be of standardized size an the fluff states units are kept separate to prevent mutiny.
The munitorum also has a tendency to bureaucratism ( hope that word exists..) and may disapprove of any "need more supplies" request
if the numbers don't fit into their forms.

2) any unit created has to be maneuvrable in the field ( in "not fighting yet"times and war itself ).
The reason for the sizes were used to, is what was proven to work.
Modern armies have comms. IG has such thing too. But it happend before and will happen again that units are unreachable.
Think about a single General HQ caring for these millions or hundreds of thousands youre putting into a regiment.
Isn't it to easy to cut them off?
Now, run with dozens of regiments and also dozens of HQ's. You may confuse one or more of them with sabotage, but never all.
The moment one is cut off, a neighbouring HQ can take over. Simply a formation of the size imagined in this thread is as unwieldy as
it gets.
Try to move a 500k strong regiment and youre pretty fast stuck somewhere.
You either get companies to big to fit on the local network of transportation ( streets, railroads, etc..) or get so many companies you'll
end up insane just from ordering them into their planned positions.

3) casualities are overestimated.
Forget the artwork of GW. It isn't the real battle. It certainly is like the old paintings you find in museums....heroic poses, thousands of enemies singlehandedly slain by whoever is the most glorious leader of that army, artistic licence ....
But, these are all battles without weapons of great range. And 40k provides those .
Does a regiment equal a whole army in size? Why should it? The IG sends multiple regiments into warzones.
Thus casualties are spread across those multiple Regiments and heavily hit regiments can be pulled back and fresh ones rotated forwards.
I am sure there are examples of this to be found within BL fluff.
We should not deem extreme examples of IG commanders marching endless rows of guardsmen in waves over the enemy until these break
as common behaviour. Like we don't assume specialized troops, especially the elysians and their main feature of having the floor wiped with
them and thus resulting in high casuality rates, are typical.
IG officers may not be as troops preserving as modern officers are, but wasting Guardsmen is still an affront against the tactica which tells us
"the lives of the IG are his currency, spent them well". Return of invest, good sirs!

Look up the casualties of: Tanith1st and only, gunheads, dead men walking.
Light infantry, losing a few hundred over time.
Armored company, losing a few dozenes and mechanized infantry losing a few hundred. Against overwhelming numbers of orks.
Heavy Infantry, DkOK, losing a few hundred against necrons. And gauss weapons don't leave wounded.....
There is nothing about supersized regiments and losing thousands per minute in a single encounter.

4) wrong opponent.
The common opponent isn't a CSm or necron, its usually something that will die to lasguns sooner than those would.

5) GW's own examples point to hundreds of regiments drawn from worlds.

Everyone claiming regiments containing millions of men is making numbers up. A regiment is several thousand men, far less than a million. It's the level of organization immediately above the company.

Raxmei wrote:Everyone claiming regiments containing millions of men is making numbers up. A regiment is several thousand men, far less than a million. It's the level of organization immediately above the company.

So with your logic you can defend a planet size of Earth with 100.000 man? With that numbers you can defend every major capital of Earth?

With several thousand man you cannot hold 1 country not to mentione an entire planet. This is simple "wrighters have no sance of scale thing". For example, average Imperial Hive World have 32.000.000.000 people, but it's Imperial Guard Regiment have 10.000 man?

I say that regiments containing millions of men is not making up - but instead a real point of view.

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Everyone claiming regiments containing millions of men is making numbers up. A regiment is several thousand men, far less than a million. It's the level of organization immediately above the company.

So with your logic you can defend a planet size of Earth with 100.000 man? With that numbers you can defend every major capital of Earth?

With several thousand man you cannot hold 1 country not to mentione an entire planet. This is simple "wrighters have no sance of scale thing". For example, average Imperial Hive World have 32.000.000.000 people, but it's Imperial Guard Regiment have 10.000 man?

I say that regiments containing millions of men is not making up - but instead a real point of view.

Except you seem to be thinking one planet = 1 Regiment. It doesn't. Planets supply multiple regiments that share a name. For example, Catachan has multiple famous regiments, such as the Catachan VII "Catachan Devils", Catachan XVIII " Swamprats", Catachan MXIV "Unseen Lurkers", etc.

Earth isn't defended by one regiment alone, and planets aren't attacked or defended by one regiment.

There is no textual support for regiments of that size. Go ahead, find a reference for a single regiment containing a million men. If there is no precedent for the numbers you are claiming in the source material then you are making your numbers up.

You seem to be conflating "regiment" with "every soldier on the planet". It's possible, indeed common, for there to be multiple regiments present in a war zone.

Platuan4th wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Everyone claiming regiments containing millions of men is making numbers up. A regiment is several thousand men, far less than a million. It's the level of organization immediately above the company.

So with your logic you can defend a planet size of Earth with 100.000 man? With that numbers you can defend every major capital of Earth?

With several thousand man you cannot hold 1 country not to mentione an entire planet. This is simple "wrighters have no sance of scale thing". For example, average Imperial Hive World have 32.000.000.000 people, but it's Imperial Guard Regiment have 10.000 man?

I say that regiments containing millions of men is not making up - but instead a real point of view.

Except you're thinking one planet = 1 Regiment. It doesn't. Planets supply multiple regiments that share a name, but not numbers.

Earth isn't defended by one regiment alone, and planets aren't attacked or defended by one regiment.

This is a central problem in the writers' sense of scale though - we regularly hear of X regiment being sent to conquer world Y. As a matter of fact warhammer almost never approaches the number of men who would actually be required to take a fully populated and hostile planet by force. You'd need 10s of millions of men in the combat arms alone, and the logistical problems don't bear thinking about. But warhammer is a game for kids, and essentially a fantasy game. We just hear how Commander Fancypants led ten thousand soldiers against Lord Evillaugh, and beat him in a swordfight, and saved the day. Hence, numbers in 40k are limited to whatever sounds cool.

Raxmei wrote:There is no textual support for regiments of that size. Go ahead, find a reference for a single regiment containing a million men. If there is no precedent for the numbers you are claiming in the source material then you are making your numbers up.

You seem to be conflating "regiment" with "every soldier on the planet". It's possible, indeed common, for there to be multiple regiments present in a war zone.

There is no textual support on my claim, but being as there is "untold number of Humans in the galaxy" and "Imperial Guard has such numbers that when one solder is killed 10 replace him" suddenly you read that "one regiment count's from several hundred to few thousand troops"???

It's just not logically, especially when they are fighting enemies like Orks or Tyranids whose numbers black the sky and the ground. And again how many Regiments can be deployed for one operation? If Regiment has 50.000 - 100.000 man, you will need at least 10 Regiments to conquer a planet. And if one system has more planets the numbers just grow up. And in the end - if you need to conquer a sector you will need around 50 - 100 Regiments. This is big numbers and many tactical errors can be made because casualties are very high and smaller Regiments are merging with bigger ones and in the end the commander becomes helpless to lead their troops who are now mostly mix of everything.

And to prove how this just look at Taros campaign. 5 Imperial Guard Regiments ( gathered from 12 different Regiments ) failed in conquering a planet from the Tau + they have 1 Titan and Space Marine support. Now, if the Regiments have counted 3.000.000 man ( the numbers that are real to them ) they would conquer planet easily. There where 12.000 locals + few thousand Tau solders and Kroot mercenariness. And the Imperium was able to defeat similar Tau force at Kronus and Kaurava using far less troops.

On original question: numbers are on my side. Not to use full potential of one population for war effort is just stupid. In war you are forming Army's of millions, now few hundreds per army. And the history tough us when you are trying to conquer or defend a city, you need lot of troops. Being that average Imperial Hive city is the size of Europe or Africa. You will need at least few millions to defend it. I cannt imagine even 2.000.000 solders defending the 30% of that city ( and that would be how many? 20 IG Regiments? ).






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Platuan4th wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Everyone claiming regiments containing millions of men is making numbers up. A regiment is several thousand men, far less than a million. It's the level of organization immediately above the company.

So with your logic you can defend a planet size of Earth with 100.000 man? With that numbers you can defend every major capital of Earth?

With several thousand man you cannot hold 1 country not to mentione an entire planet. This is simple "wrighters have no sance of scale thing". For example, average Imperial Hive World have 32.000.000.000 people, but it's Imperial Guard Regiment have 10.000 man?

I say that regiments containing millions of men is not making up - but instead a real point of view.

Except you seem to be thinking one planet = 1 Regiment. It doesn't. Planets supply multiple regiments that share a name. For example, Catachan has multiple famous regiments, such as the Catachan VII "Catachan Devils", Catachan XVIII " Swamprats", Catachan MXIV "Unseen Lurkers", etc.

Earth isn't defended by one regiment alone, and planets aren't attacked or defended by one regiment.

I only used Earth as an example. Holy Terra is the most guarded and heavily fortified planet in the galaxy, everybody knows that. And I said "planet the size of Earth" - not Earth itself...

And by your logic in few months we will see Cadian 8516751'th Regiment? They will ran out of numbers before they ran out of Regiments if they are making them in that numbers
The point is, judging by the sheer size of the population ( as noted above ) it is unimaginable for one regiment to have so few solders. Especially if they are tasked to defend big territory. And judging by the losses the Guard is having regularly they are losing several Regiments on day. This way is just not practical for the size of the Imperium, and giving the population of a single world - it's just not realistic.

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:There is no textual support for regiments of that size. Go ahead, find a reference for a single regiment containing a million men. If there is no precedent for the numbers you are claiming in the source material then you are making your numbers up.

You seem to be conflating "regiment" with "every soldier on the planet". It's possible, indeed common, for there to be multiple regiments present in a war zone.

There is no textual support on my claim, but being as there is "untold number of Humans in the galaxy" and "Imperial Guard has such numbers that when one solder is killed 10 replace him" suddenly you read that "one regiment count's from several hundred to few thousand troops"???

It's just not logically, especially when they are fighting enemies like Orks or Tyranids whose numbers black the sky and the ground. And again how many Regiments can be deployed for one operation? If Regiment has 50.000 - 100.000 man, you will need at least 10 Regiments to conquer a planet. And if one system has more planets the numbers just grow up. And in the end - if you need to conquer a sector you will need around 50 - 100 Regiments. This is big numbers and many tactical errors can be made because casualties are very high and smaller Regiments are merging with bigger ones and in the end the commander becomes helpless to lead their troops who are now mostly mix of everything.

And to prove how this just look at Taros campaign. 5 Imperial Guard Regiments ( gathered from 12 different Regiments ) failed in conquering a planet from the Tau + they have 1 Titan and Space Marine support. Now, if the Regiments have counted 3.000.000 man ( the numbers that are real to them ) they would conquer planet easily. There where 12.000 locals + few thousand Tau solders and Kroot mercenariness. And the Imperium was able to defeat similar Tau force at Kronus and Kaurava using far less troops.

On original question: numbers are on my side. Not to use full potential of one population for war effort is just stupid. In war you are forming Army's of millions, now few hundreds per army. And the history tough us when you are trying to conquer or defend a city, you need lot of troops. Being that average Imperial Hive city is the size of Europe or Africa. You will need at least few millions to defend it. I cannt imagine even 2.000.000 solders defending the 30% of that city ( and that would be how many? 20 IG Regiments? ).

The problem with this is that 5 regiments are hardly the case. Usually, the Guard are deployed in numbers exceeding that. I just finished reading one of the books in Ciaphias Cain, Defender of the Imperium and 12 regiments + inquisitor were sent to deal with a tyranid threat. This threat only consists of hybrid-stealers.

If we look at this, I find it feasible that at least 50 regiments would be fielded against a much larger foe, say a tyranid invasion. This would give us about 1 250 000 (50x25000) fighting men with tanks, bombardment, space support. Morever, the Guard operates as a whole, artillery, armour, infantry and it can be assumed that the Nids field several million (say 6) at a time, giving us 4.8 Nids to a man.

If these creatures had to close the distance between Imperial lines, they would suffer devastating casualties due to said bombardments, which would thin out thier lines quite sufficiently. Assuming every round kills 3. Getting closer, they have to face the massed ranks of more than a million lasguns/hellguns/pistols/flamers/heavy weapons that have a pretty good rate of fire. This would probably take out a 2-3 Nids per man. Saying this, the Nids may retreat before they even reach Guard lines. So 20 000-30 000 men per regiment would be extremely feasible and logical.

Armegaeddon had in excess of 100 regiments fielded, plus PDF and Astartes, Against one of (or) the biggest Waaaagh! ever seen by one of (or) the biggest warboss. This probably puts the numbers of Orks to be around 10-15million Orksi. Using the numbers from above, it seems that more than 2.5million Guardsmen are deployed, not including the millions of PDF units, thousands of Astartes and Fighters from the Navy. This would put the numbers of 20-30k per regiment feasible yet again. If a million were to be in the regiment and 100 to be fielded, that would count to a number of a hundred million men.

Just what I think, feel free to argue.

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:There is no textual support for regiments of that size. Go ahead, find a reference for a single regiment containing a million men. If there is no precedent for the numbers you are claiming in the source material then you are making your numbers up.

You seem to be conflating "regiment" with "every soldier on the planet". It's possible, indeed common, for there to be multiple regiments present in a war zone.

There is no textual support on my claim, but being as there is "untold number of Humans in the galaxy" and "Imperial Guard has such numbers that when one solder is killed 10 replace him" suddenly you read that "one regiment count's from several hundred to few thousand troops"???

I never said "one regiment count's [sic] from several hundred to few thousand troops." Why are you putting words that nobody said in quotation marks? I said "A regiment is several thousand men" in paraphrase of the Imperial Guard codex page 9, "Regiments are typically raised with a strength of several thousand soldiers." It should be obvious that the population of the Imperium or the size of the Imperial Guard has nothing to do with the size of the typical regiment. Since your numbers are not drawn from the source material it is hard to describe them as anything other than made up.

It's just not logically, especially when they are fighting enemies like Orks or Tyranids whose numbers black the sky and the ground. And again how many Regiments can be deployed for one operation? If Regiment has 50.000 - 100.000 man, you will need at least 10 Regiments to conquer a planet. And if one system has more planets the numbers just grow up. And in the end - if you need to conquer a sector you will need around 50 - 100 Regiments. This is big numbers and many tactical errors can be made because casualties are very high and smaller Regiments are merging with bigger ones and in the end the commander becomes helpless to lead their troops who are now mostly mix of everything.

You have no problem believing a Colonel can keep thousands of companies in his regiment straight, but can't believe a war zone can contain dozens of regiments? As examples, the main rulebook defines a fortress world as having a garrison of at least 100 regiments, at the outset of the 3rd Armageddon war there were over 200 regiments on Armageddon and at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade there were over 700 regiments on Cadia and both planets received substantial reinforcements as the campaigns went on. If you take the Cadian 8th as typical (8000 men, see the previous codex) then there were about six million Imperial Guard there, presumably not counting PDF. Codex: Eye of Terror actually gives you the resources to estimate the size of the Cadian PDF: 180 million. I expect the bulk of those troops to have been reservists who had not yet been mobilized at the outset of the war but even if you take this as the strength of the 612 Cadian Shock Troops regiments that adds up to under 300,000 per regiment. Back to Armageddon, the strength of Ghazkull's horde is given at 1042 warbands of between 300 and 3000 orks, high end estimate 3 million total. If an Imperial Guard regiment is supposed to contain millions of men then the 200 Imperial regiments opposing him outnumber his orks somewhere in the ballpark of a hundred to one.

And to prove how this just look at Taros campaign. 5 Imperial Guard Regiments ( gathered from 12 different Regiments ) failed in conquering a planet from the Tau + they have 1 Titan and Space Marine support. Now, if the Regiments have counted 3.000.000 man ( the numbers that are real to them ) they would conquer planet easily. There where 12.000 locals + few thousand Tau solders and Kroot mercenariness. And the Imperium was able to defeat similar Tau force at Kronus and Kaurava using far less troops.

This paragraph is completely incoherent.

On original question: numbers are on my side. Not to use full potential of one population for war effort is just stupid. In war you are forming Army's of millions, now few hundreds per army. And the history tough us when you are trying to conquer or defend a city, you need lot of troops. Being that average Imperial Hive city is the size of Europe or Africa. You will need at least few millions to defend it. I cannt imagine even 2.000.000 solders defending the 30% of that city ( and that would be how many? 20 IG Regiments? ).

Again, the idea of a few hundred men in a regiment is a strawman argument that nobody is claiming. Again, forming the an army of millions out of a single regiment shows complete ignorance of the principles of military organization.

Platuan4th wrote:
And by your logic in few months we will see Cadian 8516751'th Regiment? They will ran out of numbers before they ran out of Regiments if they are making them in that numbers
The point is, judging by the sheer size of the population ( as noted above ) it is unimaginable for one regiment to have so few solders. Especially if they are tasked to defend big territory. And judging by the losses the Guard is having regularly they are losing several Regiments on day. This way is just not practical for the size of the Imperium, and giving the population of a single world - it's just not realistic.

A militaristic world such as Cadia would reasonably have 4 or even 5 digit regimental designations. Considering that there were 600 Cadian regiments persent in a single warzone during one campaign and those did not include the notoriously far reaching shock troops spread across the galaxy there likely are well over a thousand active Cadian regiments in the Guard. 4 digits is enough to give unique numbers to just under 10,000 regiments. With a PDF of 180 million a tithe would number 18 million troops, which at high single digit to low double digit thousands of men per regiment would use a couple thousand regimental standards per tithe. Planets highlighted in medium green in the main rulebook would likely need 5 digit regimental numbers since their tithe exceeds 50 millions per year.

In contrast, a regiment containing one million men would include an unmanageable number of companies. Lest we forget, the Guard have no level of organization between company and regiment and the company is known to number at most a few hundred men. The regimental commander would have thousands of company commanders reporting directly to him. He wouldn't be able to remember everyone's names, much less coordinate their efforts. The example regiment given in the first Imperial Guard codex designated its companies by color - red, green, blue, yellow, and black. That works if you have a small number of companies, but if you have over a thousand... could you tell the difference between Russet company and Sepia company without special equipment? The Cadian 8th had two dozen companies as presented in the 2003 codex and even that's more subordinates than a modern commander would want under his direct responsibility.

GW probably haven't thought about or defined what a "regiment" is, as far as the IG is concerned. It's just a nice military sounding name.

In historical armies, a regiment is often a recruitment and training organisation rather than a unit in itself.

The units organised for armies are actually battalions, of which each regiment might have one to six. A battalion usually has between 600 and 1,000 men depending on official establishment and current status. Each battalion would have several companies, usually containing 100 to 200 men each.

Battalions from a regiment were often brigaded together, and led by their colonel, and referred to as "the xxth regiment", so from a practical viewpoint you can talk about regiments on the battlefield.

Certainly there would have to various levels of organisation in the IG, ranging from the basic squad up to the whole army. There is evidence of this sort of organisation with similar levels and sizes of units in professionally organised armies from the ancient Egyptians onwards. It derives from basic limits on the human capability for relating to, organising and managing people.

Raxmei wrote:You have no problem believing a Colonel can keep thousands of companies in his regiment straight, but can't believe a war zone can contain dozens of regiments? As examples, the main rulebook defines a fortress world as having a garrison of at least 100 regiments, at the outset of the 3rd Armageddon war there were over 200 regiments on Armageddon and at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade there were over 700 regiments on Cadia and both planets received substantial reinforcements as the campaigns went on. If you take the Cadian 8th as typical (8000 men, see the previous codex) then there were about six million Imperial Guard there, presumably not counting PDF. Codex: Eye of Terror actually gives you the resources to estimate the size of the Cadian PDF: 180 million. I expect the bulk of those troops to have been reservists who had not yet been mobilized at the outset of the war but even if you take this as the strength of the 612 Cadian Shock Troops regiments that adds up to under 300,000 per regiment. Back to Armageddon, the strength of Ghazkull's horde is given at 1042 warbands of between 300 and 3000 orks, high end estimate 3 million total. If an Imperial Guard regiment is supposed to contain millions of men then the 200 Imperial regiments opposing him outnumber his orks somewhere in the ballpark of a hundred to one.

You state that Orks have precise numbers? The army that can grow another solder from the one sample of hair? You need to check the Ork reproduction and culture, they are society without numbers. Where did you get the number of 1042 warbands? And I believe that more than 50 Regiments can be deployed in battle. But 700 Regiments? I think that you are now playing with numbers. +612 Shock Troops Regiments? This is highly unrealistic, ask Imperial Guard General for all of his Regiment commanders, and what's the one Regiment for. In this kind of situations the battle progress with Regiments merging into one, one is destroyed and on the end you got chaos on the ground and commander giving the orders to Regiments that do not exist anymore. And please, give up the damn codex, every next one is giving the different story and the different numbers. Reliying on them is higly unlicky, especially when GW writers don't have scale for numbers.

This paragraph is completely incoherent.

It is, it shows how IG Regiment organisation is not realistic. It shows how the IG having the superior numbers and armor fail to conquer a planet with 12.000 inhabitants. And it shows that this kind or Regimental organization is not realistic because solders mix up pretty quick and then giving orders is pointless because man from armor division are receiving orders for infantry division. The Taros campaign proves my point.

Again, the idea of a few hundred men in a regiment is a strawman argument that nobody is claiming. Again, forming the an army of millions out of a single regiment shows complete ignorance of the principles of military organization.

Again giving the population of one Imperial worlds is totally claimable. Again, forming one Regiment of infantry simplify things when it comes to giving orders and move army's. It's much easier to move 10 than 100 Regiments.

A militaristic world such as Cadia would reasonably have 4 or even 5 digit regimental designations. Considering that there were 600 Cadian regiments persent in a single warzone during one campaign and those did not include the notoriously far reaching shock troops spread across the galaxy there likely are well over a thousand active Cadian regiments in the Guard. 4 digits is enough to give unique numbers to just under 10,000 regiments. With a PDF of 180 million a tithe would number 18 million troops, which at high single digit to low double digit thousands of men per regiment would use a couple thousand regimental standards per tithe. Planets highlighted in medium green in the main rulebook would likely need 5 digit regimental numbers since their tithe exceeds 50 millions per year.

In contrast, a regiment containing one million men would include an unmanageable number of companies. Lest we forget, the Guard have no level of organization between company and regiment and the company is known to number at most a few hundred men. The regimental commander would have thousands of company commanders reporting directly to him. He wouldn't be able to remember everyone's names, much less coordinate their efforts. The example regiment given in the first Imperial Guard codex designated its companies by color - red, green, blue, yellow, and black. That works if you have a small number of companies, but if you have over a thousand... could you tell the difference between Russet company and Sepia company without special equipment? The Cadian 8th had two dozen companies as presented in the 2003 codex and even that's more subordinates than a modern commander would want under his direct responsibility.

Prof there where 600 Cadian Regiments http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Imperial_Guard_regiments I can see here only 32 Regiments? And I can see here a few more http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Notable_Cadian_Trooper_Regiments. Other are presumably destroyed over centuries of battles. And there is the military organisation between company and Regiment, it's called divisions. I saw a few Imperial Guard Regiments consisting of a few combined divisions each consisting few thousand men. And again don't take codex to much serious for background with numbers. You can't defend planet size of Earth with 2.500.000 man. You can't even defend Hive city with those numbers, the man would be simply to stretch to hold out defense perimeter and enemy would harass them between defense lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Conservationist wrote:
The problem with this is that 5 regiments are hardly the case. Usually, the Guard are deployed in numbers exceeding that. I just finished reading one of the books in Ciaphias Cain, Defender of the Imperium and 12 regiments + inquisitor were sent to deal with a tyranid threat. This threat only consists of hybrid-stealers.

If we look at this, I find it feasible that at least 50 regiments would be fielded against a much larger foe, say a tyranid invasion. This would give us about 1 250 000 (50x25000) fighting men with tanks, bombardment, space support. Morever, the Guard operates as a whole, artillery, armour, infantry and it can be assumed that the Nids field several million (say 6) at a time, giving us 4.8 Nids to a man.

If these creatures had to close the distance between Imperial lines, they would suffer devastating casualties due to said bombardments, which would thin out thier lines quite sufficiently. Assuming every round kills 3. Getting closer, they have to face the massed ranks of more than a million lasguns/hellguns/pistols/flamers/heavy weapons that have a pretty good rate of fire. This would probably take out a 2-3 Nids per man. Saying this, the Nids may retreat before they even reach Guard lines. So 20 000-30 000 men per regiment would be extremely feasible and logical.

Armegaeddon had in excess of 100 regiments fielded, plus PDF and Astartes, Against one of (or) the biggest Waaaagh! ever seen by one of (or) the biggest warboss. This probably puts the numbers of Orks to be around 10-15million Orksi. Using the numbers from above, it seems that more than 2.5million Guardsmen are deployed, not including the millions of PDF units, thousands of Astartes and Fighters from the Navy. This would put the numbers of 20-30k per regiment feasible yet again. If a million were to be in the regiment and 100 to be fielded, that would count to a number of a hundred million men.

Just what I think, feel free to argue.

Just one question: where did you get Tyranid numbers? I thought that they attack in hundred million warriors at once, outnumbering every Guardsman 100 to 1. And again where did you get 15.000.000 Orks when one is made from the sample of hair?

Source for number of Ork warbands and IG regiments on Armageddon is Codex: Armageddon. Source for number of regiments on Cadia at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade is Codex: Eye of Terror. The back of Codex Armageddon lists all notable Ork battle forces on the planet along with the amount of warriors that a warband might contain. 300 to 3000 orks per warband, a bit over 1000 warbands when you add them all together. The same source lists all Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Sororitas, Mechanicus, and various other Imperial forces present. Likewise Codex Eye of Terror lists the notable forces present including 612 regiments of Cadian shock troops. Just skimming through the current IG codex a moment ago I noticed page 27. 1st list item "The Red Corsairs descend upon the Dentor system slaughtering millions. Over one hundred new regiments are raised." 5th entry "Chaos renegades raid Gothic Sector. One hundred and fifty additional Imperial Guard regiments to be raised." Two current in text citations for over a hundred guard regiments committed to a single campaign. I'm not the one making numbers up here, I'm going by official literature. The only argument you have against this is your own incredulity at the ability of a general to keep track of a few hundred regiments. Meanwhile, you are posting numbers with no source other than your imagination. As long as we're ignoring everything the books say and and just going by what feels right, there are ten people in the Imperium and two of them are Guardsmen.

If you feel like posting Lexicanum links now
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Regiment "The size and composition of Imperial Guard regiments is not standardised across the Imperium; the number of individual Guardsmen alone can vary enormously between regiments, with some only a few hundred strong at founding-strength, whilst others possess tens of thousands of fighting troops.1"

Raxmei wrote:Source for number of Ork warbands and IG regiments on Armageddon is Codex: Armageddon. Source for number of regiments on Cadia at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade is Codex: Eye of Terror. The back of Codex Armageddon lists all notable Ork battle forces on the planet along with the amount of warriors that a warband might contain. 300 to 3000 orks per warband, a bit over 1000 warbands when you add them all together. The same source lists all Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Sororitas, Mechanicus, and various other Imperial forces present. Likewise Codex Eye of Terror lists the notable forces present including 612 regiments of Cadian shock troops. Just skimming through the current IG codex a moment ago I noticed page 27. 1st list item "The Red Corsairs descend upon the Dentor system slaughtering millions. Over one hundred new regiments are raised." 5th entry "Chaos renegades raid Gothic Sector. One hundred and fifty additional Imperial Guard regiments to be raised." Two current in text citations for over a hundred guard regiments committed to a single campaign. I'm not the one making numbers up here, I'm going by official literature. The only argument you have against this is your own incredulity at the ability of a general to keep track of a few hundred regiments. Meanwhile, you are posting numbers with no source other than your imagination. As long as we're ignoring everything the books say and and just going by what feels right, there are ten people in the Imperium and two of them are Guardsmen.

If you feel like posting Lexicanum links now
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Regiment "The size and composition of Imperial Guard regiments is not standardised across the Imperium; the number of individual Guardsmen alone can vary enormously between regiments, with some only a few hundred strong at founding-strength, whilst others possess tens of thousands of fighting troops.1"

Ok, now answer me this: how many Regiments you need to protect a planet size of Earth. Who has, let's say 3 large continents and 2 major Hive cities with population of total 25.000.000.000 citizens? And the attackers are Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here is one more question: how can 1 Imperial Guard Regiment, counting several thousand man hold on entire star system?

Brother Coa wrote:

Ok, now answer me this: how many Regiments you need to protect a planet size of Earth. Who has, let's say 3 large continents and 2 major Hive cities with population of total 25.000.000.000 citizens? And the attackers are Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here is one more question: how can 1 Imperial Guard Regiment, counting several thousand man hold on entire star system?

1)Raxmei's numbers are correct citations of GW sources.

2) The Imperial navy defends the system. The PDF defends the hives. The IG backs them up.
Its a few hundred-thousands of orks vs a PDF around 1-2.000.000. Orks are outnumbered.
A planet with just 2 hives would be rather uninhabitable and therefore its population concentrated at the Hives.
So just a few strongpoints to defend. Dug in PDF cabn handle that ( if theyre not lead by someone like van Straab ...).
IG is just a bonus there.

3) systems are hold by the Imperial navy and the PDF. The IG is the mobile reserve of the IoM.

Brother Coa wrote:Ok, now answer me this: how many Regiments you need to protect a planet size of Earth. Who has, let's say 3 large continents and 2 major Hive cities with population of total 25.000.000.000 citizens? And the attackers are Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here is one more question: how can 1 Imperial Guard Regiment, counting several thousand man hold on entire star system?

Trick question. Neither task requires any Imperial Guardsmen at all.

The jobs you have listed both fall upon the shoulders of the PDF, which follows a completely different command structure. The Guard are an attack and counterattack force. Imperial Guard strike forces are assembled as needed at the scale that the mission and strength of the opposition dictate. This is frequently done ad hoc - first whatever forces are on hand are sent which are then reinforced with additional regiments until resistance collapses. At one extreme I expect that by the end of the 13th Black Crusade there will be well over a thousand regiments committed to counterattacking Abaddon's legions across numerous fronts, with hundreds of regiments having by that point been annihilated or consolidated due to casualties. The Eye of Terror codex does note that the high turnover of regiments in the campaign eventually made it impossible to keep detailed track of all units involved. The supreme commander would most sensibly delegate operational authority to the senior officer at each front, each of them charged with the handling of a reasonably self-contained force of, say, a couple dozen regiments. On a campaign of such an extraordinary scale as this there would likely be additional levels of command at the planetary, continental, and strategic direction levels as appropriate.

Now, there are a few worlds that do have large permanent Imperial Guard garrisons even when there is no active conflict. Worlds of great importance can have over a hundred, possibly much more than a hundred, regiments of Imperial Guard dedicated to nothing other than defending them in addition to whatever the PDF might have. Cadia is the most famous of the Imperium's fortress worlds. Its guard garrison numbered several hundred regiments on top of a large PDF. Supposing that our hypothetical 25-billion man world is such a place then the size its Guard garrison would naturally depend on its importance to the Imperium and the level of activity in its sector. A few hundred regiments of Guard would be within the realm of possibility. The number actually required would of course depend on how many Orks are attacking. If the PDF and garrison are not sufficient then additional regiments will be raised from the local population and surrounding systems until the Imperium does have sufficient forces on planet to drive out the foe, however many that may be.

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Everyone claiming regiments containing millions of men is making numbers up. A regiment is several thousand men, far less than a million. It's the level of organization immediately above the company.

So with your logic you can defend a planet size of Earth with 100.000 man? With that numbers you can defend every major capital of Earth?

With several thousand man you cannot hold 1 country not to mentione an entire planet. This is simple "wrighters have no sance of scale thing". For example, average Imperial Hive World have 32.000.000.000 people, but it's Imperial Guard Regiment have 10.000 man?

I say that regiments containing millions of men is not making up - but instead a real point of view.

Since when do single regiments have to watch over a single world on their own?

As previously said, regiments are the organisational classification just above the company (which numbers somewhere between 150-250 soldiers). Which would mean that a single regiment, usually made of ten companies, would number around 1500-2500 fighting men. But a single regiment would also have tech-crews, HQ staff, reserve men, attached specialized units, etc. Thus, a single regiment could probably number around 6000 men.
But remember that above the regiment, you have the brigade, the division, etc.

IG regiments have to conquer an entire world on their own only in very poor and unrealistic BL publications.

Most of GW's serious and experienced authors (Abnett, Parker...) always mention IG regiments fighting in divisions and army groups.

1hadhq wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Ok, now answer me this: how many Regiments you need to protect a planet size of Earth. Who has, let's say 3 large continents and 2 major Hive cities with population of total 25.000.000.000 citizens? And the attackers are Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here is one more question: how can 1 Imperial Guard Regiment, counting several thousand man hold on entire star system?

1)Raxmei's numbers are correct citations of GW sources.

2) The Imperial navy defends the system. The PDF defends the hives. The IG backs them up.
Its a few hundred-thousands of orks vs a PDF around 1-2.000.000. Orks are outnumbered.
A planet with just 2 hives would be rather uninhabitable and therefore its population concentrated at the Hives.
So just a few strongpoints to defend. Dug in PDF cabn handle that ( if theyre not lead by someone like van Straab ...).
IG is just a bonus there.

3) systems are hold by the Imperial navy and the PDF. The IG is the mobile reserve of the IoM.

1) Those "GW sorces" cannot tell the difference between semi and full automated rifle. Not to mention military branch numbers.
2) I hate to tell you this but...how the hell can you get the Orks outnumbered? When they are reproducing in that way when you kill one 20 more replace him. Imperial navy that defend the planet is just few ships and maybe one frigate. Majority of the system fleet is always on the move or it's guarding the docks. And that is not enough man to defend the Hive city, you need at least 10.000.000 solders for that. Remember that in any city every hard point can be flanked and outmaneuvered as we have seen in every war. Except when the hard points are connected via defense lines. And giving the sher number of Hive and the Hive population you will have at least around 10.000.000 solders to create a stable defense line to hold out.
3) Seen that at Tartarus, Lorn V, Kronus, Kaurava, Aurelia... In most cases 20% of the planet systems of Imperium is defended by the way you described above. The rest 80% are defended by PDF with feew Navy ships and 1 IG Regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ok, now answer me this: how many Regiments you need to protect a planet size of Earth. Who has, let's say 3 large continents and 2 major Hive cities with population of total 25.000.000.000 citizens? And the attackers are Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here is one more question: how can 1 Imperial Guard Regiment, counting several thousand man hold on entire star system?

Trick question. Neither task requires any Imperial Guardsmen at all.

The jobs you have listed both fall upon the shoulders of the PDF, which follows a completely different command structure. The Guard are an attack and counterattack force. Imperial Guard strike forces are assembled as needed at the scale that the mission and strength of the opposition dictate. This is frequently done ad hoc - first whatever forces are on hand are sent which are then reinforced with additional regiments until resistance collapses. At one extreme I expect that by the end of the 13th Black Crusade there will be well over a thousand regiments committed to counterattacking Abaddon's legions across numerous fronts, with hundreds of regiments having by that point been annihilated or consolidated due to casualties. The Eye of Terror codex does note that the high turnover of regiments in the campaign eventually made it impossible to keep detailed track of all units involved. The supreme commander would most sensibly delegate operational authority to the senior officer at each front, each of them charged with the handling of a reasonably self-contained force of, say, a couple dozen regiments. On a campaign of such an extraordinary scale as this there would likely be additional levels of command at the planetary, continental, and strategic direction levels as appropriate.

Last time I checked Guard = Guarding = Defending. And in most cases that is the thing - they are always defending something, rarely conquering.
And most PDF are so poorly trained that IG Regiments must be healed on capital world for extra protection. The only PDF earning that mane is the one of Ultramar.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laodamia wrote:
Since when do single regiments have to watch over a single world on their own?

As previously said, regiments are the organisational classification just above the company (which numbers somewhere between 150-250 soldiers). Which would mean that a single regiment, usually made of ten companies, would number around 1500-2500 fighting men. But a single regiment would also have tech-crews, HQ staff, reserve men, attached specialized units, etc. Thus, a single regiment could probably number around 6000 men.
But remember that above the regiment, you have the brigade, the division, etc.

IG regiments have to conquer an entire world on their own only in very poor and unrealistic BL publications.

Most of GW's serious and experienced authors (Abnett, Parker...) always mention IG regiments fighting in divisions and army groups.

Seen it just to many times....To many worlds of the Imperium are guarded by 1 Regiment only. Only the realy important ones are guarded by several Regiments.
And you are saying me that 1 Chinese battalion have more man than 1 Imperial Guard Regiment? ( 1 Chinese Battalion have 750.000 man )
And that's the military progress in 41'st millennium.

Oh goody, the background material that comprises literally everything we know about the Warhammer 40,000 setting is not a valid source. Bearing that in mind:
You don't need an army to fight Orks. Ork boyz are only six inches tall so Imperial citizens have no trouble simply squishing all but the most numerous of Ork armies underfoot. However, at one point the citizens of the verdant paradise world known as Krieg got tired of constantly having to clean ork off their shoes so they called the Imperial Guard for help. The Imperial Guard was a man named Abraham Lincoln, and as his title implied it was his job to guard every citizen of the Imperium from danger. He swiftly rode to Krieg on his multicolored unicorn named Charlie. Upon arrival Lincoln rode Charlie right into the the thick of the ork horde. He dismounted to fight and between his two boots and Charlie's four hooves many thousands of orks were squished that day. However, there were still many Orks left so Abraham called on his good friend Isambaard Kingdom Brunel, the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Adeptus Mechanicus was the most crafty craftsman in the entire Imperium. If anyone could solve this problem it was him. Isambaard pondered the problem for two long minutes before he finally thought of a solution. He built a legged war machine to automatically stomp the orks beneath its tireless mechanical feat. The very next day the ork stompa was ready for action and Krieg was free of the ork pest once and for all within the week. Orks have appeared on other Imperial worlds since then but have never posed a serious problem in no small part due to the commendable efforts of Abraham Lincoln and Isambaard Kingdom Brunel.

When composing your response keep in mind that you are not allowed to refer to any source material that contradicts my account. The source material is ridiculous and unrealistic so we can't base any arguments on anything it says.

Are we ready to talk about the Warhammer 40,000 setting as described by Games Workshop now?

Brother Coa wrote:
1) Those "GW sources" cannot tell the difference between semi and full automated rifle. Not to mention military branch numbers.

Oh really?

Codex Imperial guard, 3rd ed, page 31:
Selction screen of the ad munitorum, force request.
Options shown:

type of formation:

- lists 37 types, sorted alpabetically from aeronautical to supply units.

size fo formation:

- lists 17 levels.
- sorted alpabetically from Army down to squad.
( Beware: translated, may be wrong )
Army, battalion, battery, division, front, cohort, company, corps, patrol, phalanx, regiment, group?, squadron, team, company-parts?, squad.

type of warzone:

- lists 37 types, sorted alpabetically. From aequatorial to "other".


Selection process of the ad munitorum seems to be able to deal with anything from a few pirates/rebels to a full crusade.

Codex Imperial guard, 3rd ed, page 40:
Organization of a regiment.

Regiment > 5+ companies
Company > 2-6 platoons
Platoon > 2-6 squads.

Does not add up to "millions per regiment" I am afraid.

Codex Imperial Guard, 3rd ed, last page / codex imperial guard ,4th ed, page 9:
Invasion of Jucha ( macharian crusade ).

Regiments involved: 2nd Mordian, 4th Catachan ( lost), 5th catachan, 6th catachan, 14th catachan, 12th catachan.
4 battlecruiser deployed to land and support the invasion force.


codex imperial guard, 4th ed, page10/11:
8th cadia, pic. Shown 4k of 8k. 12 companies = 4000. Add the absent companies and there will be ~20 of them.

If the 8th would be lost, they would raise a "new" 8th cadia to replace.
Considering there is a 3 digit regiment number already, up to 1000 x 8000 => 8.000.000.
Just the minimum contribution to the IG.we know of....

Brother Coa wrote:
2) I hate to tell you this but...how the hell can you get the Orks outnumbered? When they are reproducing in that way when you kill one 20 more replace him. Imperial navy that defend the planet is just few ships and maybe one frigate. Majority of the system fleet is always on the move or it's guarding the docks. And that is not enough man to defend the Hive city, you need at least 10.000.000 soldiers for that. Remember that in any city every hard point can be flanked and outmaneuvered as we have seen in every war. Except when the hard points are connected via defense lines. And giving the sheer number of Hive and the Hive population you will have at least around 10.000.000 soldiers to create a stable defense line to hold out.

Don't hate, just admit humans can outnumber orks...
Orks aren't reproducing in seconds. Dead orks are still losses that need some time to be replaced.
Nobody could ever stop a waaagh if orks could just reinforce what they lost "just-in time". And waaghs have been stopped often enough.

Hives are fortified settlements. They got enough gun-emplacements to cut the numbers of any attacker down to a size the garrison can handle. Dug in forces can hold out against a hundred times their number.
A defense line is a bad idea with orks, these like it to gather where a big fight is expected. Decreasing their numbers in mobile warfare
is the way to go. Hives are immobile and you should not draw orks to them, but away from them.
But sooner or later the orks will try to conquer the hive.
The hive isn't a mess of building sprawled across dozens of square miles. So you don't have to defend uncounted miles of fortress walls.
I would even doubt if its possible to put 10% of your 10.000.000 on the walls.

Brother Coa wrote:
3) Seen that at Tartarus, Lorn V, Kronus, Kaurava, Aurelia... In most cases 20% of the planet systems of Imperium is defended by the way you described above. The rest 80% are defended by PDF with few Navy ships and 1 IG Regiment.

Sorry, the Planetary defense force isn't just for fun named that way.
Before you have a go at Guard = guarding again, its still "Imperiale Armee" where I live...
Not sure why computer-games ( kronus, lorn V, etc ) are valid sources here and GW publications are doubted.

Brother Coa wrote:

Seen it just to many times....To many worlds of the Imperium are guarded by 1 Regiment only. Only the realy important ones are guarded by several Regiments.
And you are saying me that 1 Chinese battalion have more man than 1 Imperial Guard Regiment? ( 1 Chinese Battalion have 750.000 man )
And that's the military progress in 41'st millennium.

IG outclasses the chinese that much, obviously.

Seriously, PDF isn't IG. The tithe of IG is usually 10% of local military, so a tithe of 5.000.000 IG would translate into 50.000.000 PDF.
But, as GW preferres to keep it foggy, the size of the PDF is unknown as is the size of the IG.

Raxmei wrote:Oh goody, the background material that comprises literally everything we know about the Warhammer 40,000 setting is not a valid source. Bearing that in mind:
You don't need an army to fight Orks. Ork boyz are only six inches tall so Imperial citizens have no trouble simply squishing all but the most numerous of Ork armies underfoot. However, at one point the citizens of the verdant paradise world known as Krieg got tired of constantly having to clean ork off their shoes so they called the Imperial Guard for help. The Imperial Guard was a man named Abraham Lincoln, and as his title implied it was his job to guard every citizen of the Imperium from danger. He swiftly rode to Krieg on his multicolored unicorn named Charlie. Upon arrival Lincoln rode Charlie right into the the thick of the ork horde. He dismounted to fight and between his two boots and Charlie's four hooves many thousands of orks were squished that day. However, there were still many Orks left so Abraham called on his good friend Isambaard Kingdom Brunel, the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Adeptus Mechanicus was the most crafty craftsman in the entire Imperium. If anyone could solve this problem it was him. Isambaard pondered the problem for two long minutes before he finally thought of a solution. He built a legged war machine to automatically stomp the orks beneath its tireless mechanical feat. The very next day the ork stompa was ready for action and Krieg was free of the ork pest once and for all within the week. Orks have appeared on other Imperial worlds since then but have never posed a serious problem in no small part due to the commendable efforts of Abraham Lincoln and Isambaard Kingdom Brunel.

When composing your response keep in mind that you are not allowed to refer to any source material that contradicts my account. The source material is ridiculous and unrealistic so we can't base any arguments on anything it says.

Are we ready to talk about the Warhammer 40,000 setting as described by Games Workshop now?

First of all: your story is for little kids.
Second of all, I can respond WHATEVER I WANT at any source material that contradicts your account. You are not the law, neither my mother to tell me what I cannon and can do.
Third of all, we are talking about realistic stuff in 40k. And it's not realistic that today's Earth military forces have more solders than 1 Imperial star system, nor that they have population of ~billions and they only making military groups of 10.000 solders. And that group is in most times the only force defending a planet. ( like we saw 85'th Vendoland in defence of Meridian and later on Aurelia. )

1hadhq wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
1) Those "GW sources" cannot tell the difference between semi and full automated rifle. Not to mention military branch numbers.

Oh really?

Codex Imperial guard, 3rd ed, page 31:
Selction screen of the ad munitorum, force request.
Options shown:

type of formation:

- lists 37 types, sorted alpabetically from aeronautical to supply units.

size fo formation:

- lists 17 levels.
- sorted alpabetically from Army down to squad.
( Beware: translated, may be wrong )
Army, battalion, battery, division, front, cohort, company, corps, patrol, phalanx, regiment, group?, squadron, team, company-parts?, squad.

type of warzone:

- lists 37 types, sorted alpabetically. From aequatorial to "other".


Selection process of the ad munitorum seems to be able to deal with anything from a few pirates/rebels to a full crusade.

Codex Imperial guard, 3rd ed, page 40:
Organization of a regiment.

Regiment > 5+ companies
Company > 2-6 platoons
Platoon > 2-6 squads.

Does not add up to "millions per regiment" I am afraid.

Codex Imperial Guard, 3rd ed, last page / codex imperial guard ,4th ed, page 9:
Invasion of Jucha ( macharian crusade ).

Regiments involved: 2nd Mordian, 4th Catachan ( lost), 5th catachan, 6th catachan, 14th catachan, 12th catachan.
4 battlecruiser deployed to land and support the invasion force.


codex imperial guard, 4th ed, page10/11:
8th cadia, pic. Shown 4k of 8k. 12 companies = 4000. Add the absent companies and there will be ~20 of them.

If the 8th would be lost, they would raise a "new" 8th cadia to replace.
Considering there is a 3 digit regiment number already, up to 1000 x 8000 => 8.000.000.
Just the minimum contribution to the IG.we know of....

Brother Coa wrote:
2) I hate to tell you this but...how the hell can you get the Orks outnumbered? When they are reproducing in that way when you kill one 20 more replace him. Imperial navy that defend the planet is just few ships and maybe one frigate. Majority of the system fleet is always on the move or it's guarding the docks. And that is not enough man to defend the Hive city, you need at least 10.000.000 soldiers for that. Remember that in any city every hard point can be flanked and outmaneuvered as we have seen in every war. Except when the hard points are connected via defense lines. And giving the sheer number of Hive and the Hive population you will have at least around 10.000.000 soldiers to create a stable defense line to hold out.

Don't hate, just admit humans can outnumber orks...
Orks aren't reproducing in seconds. Dead orks are still losses that need some time to be replaced.
Nobody could ever stop a waaagh if orks could just reinforce what they lost "just-in time". And waaghs have been stopped often enough.

Hives are fortified settlements. They got enough gun-emplacements to cut the numbers of any attacker down to a size the garrison can handle. Dug in forces can hold out against a hundred times their number.
A defense line is a bad idea with orks, these like it to gather where a big fight is expected. Decreasing their numbers in mobile warfare
is the way to go. Hives are immobile and you should not draw orks to them, but away from them.
But sooner or later the orks will try to conquer the hive.
The hive isn't a mess of building sprawled across dozens of square miles. So you don't have to defend uncounted miles of fortress walls.
I would even doubt if its possible to put 10% of your 10.000.000 on the walls.

Brother Coa wrote:
3) Seen that at Tartarus, Lorn V, Kronus, Kaurava, Aurelia... In most cases 20% of the planet systems of Imperium is defended by the way you described above. The rest 80% are defended by PDF with few Navy ships and 1 IG Regiment.

Sorry, the Planetary defense force isn't just for fun named that way.
Before you have a go at Guard = guarding again, its still "Imperiale Armee" where I live...
Not sure why computer-games ( kronus, lorn V, etc ) are valid sources here and GW publications are doubted.

Brother Coa wrote:

Seen it just to many times....To many worlds of the Imperium are guarded by 1 Regiment only. Only the realy important ones are guarded by several Regiments.
And you are saying me that 1 Chinese battalion have more man than 1 Imperial Guard Regiment? ( 1 Chinese Battalion have 750.000 man )
And that's the military progress in 41'st millennium.

IG outclasses the chinese that much, obviously.

Seriously, PDF isn't IG. The tithe of IG is usually 10% of local military, so a tithe of 5.000.000 IG would translate into 50.000.000 PDF.
But, as GW preferres to keep it foggy, the size of the PDF is unknown as is the size of the IG.

I just have to say this : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale
And that my Imperial Guard Regiment (since everyone can make up their own + fluff + warfare style + paint job ) will have 3 million Guardsman.
And one more thing, if I call some military expert to wright down some weapon specification to me doesn't mean that I know about military.
And they don't have sense of scale.

Conservationist wrote:

Armegaeddon had in excess of 100 regiments fielded, plus PDF and Astartes, Against one of (or) the biggest Waaaagh! ever seen by one of (or) the biggest warboss. This probably puts the numbers of Orks to be around 10-15million Orksi. Using the numbers from above, it seems that more than 2.5million Guardsmen are deployed, not including the millions of PDF units, thousands of Astartes and Fighters from the Navy. This would put the numbers of 20-30k per regiment feasible yet again. If a million were to be in the regiment and 100 to be fielded, that would count to a number of a hundred million men.

Just what I think, feel free to argue.

That 2.5 million figure was similar to the amount used in the Siege of Vraks I believe, a conflict whose scale was far smaller then Armageddon. I'd put the number much higher, Armageddon was one of the Imperiums titantic struggles.

Remember that according to official GW policy, fluff is a mix of legend, myth, propaganda, lies, misunderstanding, and some genuine (possibly misreported) history.

If there is ever a conflict between fluff and logic, you have to bear in mind the possibility that the fluff is wrong.

Brother Coa wrote:

I just have to say this : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale
And that my Imperial Guard Regiment (since everyone can make up their own + fluff + warfare style + paint job ) will have 3 million Guardsman.
And one more thing, if I call some military expert to write down some weapon specification to me doesn't mean that I know about military.
And they don't have sense of scale.

Remember GW has M-Ward now. They don't need sense.......

PS: I do expect you to take pics of these 3.000.000 guardsmen and post them in Modelling&Painting.
May the Emperor protect you on this quest to contribute so many fine warriors to his all-conquering forces!