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Yes you do. I didnt include it as it wasnt relevent to this question. Yes, they get S10 hammers, if htey pass a psychic test

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes you do. I didnt include it as it wasnt relevent to this question. Yes, they get S10 hammers, if htey pass a psychic test

Then that would lend credence to hammerhand affecting your stat line and not just 'giving a bonus' ala furious charge.

This is another rule that I am waiting for an FAQ on. Like imweasel says, hammerhand gives +1 str before further modifiers. Meaning you can get further modifiers. Is hammerhand one of those modifiers, though...

Now, if hammerhand wasnt on EVERYTHING maybe, but as it is if you take any independent character you get 2 hammerhands in a unit, meaning we do kinda need to know if it stacks.

Example: Grandmaster with troop terminators. You can cast 2 powers total, one from the grandmaster and one from the termies. You have hammerhand and force weapons as your only 2 assault powers. If the enemy does not have multiple wound models, like most models in the game, this leaves you with just 2 hammerhand powers as your only psychic powers, and hammerhand is written that 1 casting hits everything in the unit, ICs included. If it doesnt stack, then one power will be 'wasted' as it were each turn.

Jidmah wrote:Because the rule says so? Any model with FC gets +1 I/S. If it has 42 instances of that USR it is still a model with Furious Charge.

Can you provide a quote and/or page number stating that multiple castings of Hammerhand stack?

Homer

Homer - can you provide a quote showing they dont, and that contradicts the logic breakdown given multiple times already?

"we've" proven they do; you need to provide a rule showing they dont.

Devian - it gets more than that. Add Thawn and a librarian, and you are now S8....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Homer - can you provide a quote showing they dont, and that contradicts the logic breakdown given multiple times already?

"we've" proven they do; you need to provide a rule showing they dont.

Devian - it gets more than that. Add Thawn and a librarian, and you are now S8....

Hmm,

Here I was thinking you had to show permission that is does stack. Haven't seen it yet.

Homer

It's been shown at least three times so far. The fact you've ignored the reasoning isnt exactly our problem.....

Go back, reread the thread, and respond to the points. It will help slightly

I'm not ignoring it. Review of the thread shows almost as many points against as for.

They boil down to these for me:

When things stack, it is stated. See HH with MoT and Hive Commander with Lictor.
When things do not stack, it is stated. See Lictor x 2 and Hive Commander x 2.

I am convinced HH x2 is more like the latter than the former.

That was why I asked if a quote existed for them stacking, clearly one does not.
You have asked me if a quote exists for them not stacking, clearly it does not.
An assumption has to be made regarding the absence of permission to stack.

Therefore, no permission for stacking is given.

I'm waiting for an FAQ. In the absence of one, I would dice it with an opponent.

Homer

"Therefore, no permission for stacking is given"

Except I have shown the permission in the rules. Twice.

HH == S+1

HH' = (S+1)*+1

*As this is your new strength

Alternately,

HH == S+1

HH' == S+1 == HH

HH says it applies "before any other" modifiers. HH' is not "any other" modifier, it is the same modifier.

How is this different to trying to stack 2 instances of Furious Charge? It grants +1 to S and I: S+1+1 is still S+2.

FYI, I hope you appreciate I'm not trying to be argumentative. I know tone does not carry well in forum discussions.

I really feel that if they explicitly wanted them to stack they would have said so. They did in other places in the book.

Having said that, I feel GW is just as likely FAQ it to stack as not.

Homer

All psychic tests occur simultaneously thus they cannot stack. Simple really.

Black Fiend wrote:All psychic tests occur simultaneously thus they cannot stack. Simple really.

Just what did you think when you read this? It just isn't true at all.

Black Fiend wrote:All psychic tests occur simultaneously thus they cannot stack. Simple really.

Wrong. Please show me any rule for this, anywhere. Hint: its not in the rulebook

Yes it is. When I am at home this evening I'll be able to quote the passage from the rulebook.

Homer S wrote:
When things stack, it is stated. See HH with MoT and Hive Commander with Lictor.
When things do not stack, it is stated. See Lictor x 2 and Hive Commander x 2.

Autarch's Master Strategist's rule as applies to reserve rolls stacks with other Autarchs. It was not indicated in either direction in the codex, but was rule to do so in the FAQ.

Black Fiend wrote:Yes it is. When I am at home this evening I'll be able to quote the passage from the rulebook.

No, it really isnt. nothing on Page 50, which describes the entirety of Psykers and how they work, states that ALL Psychic tests occur simultaneously. Any psychic shooting attacks made by one unit would be simultaneous, but NOT because they are psychic tests - but because all shooting from one unit is simultaneous.

You are even contradicted by the GK codex itself, under the Nemesis force weapons entry. There it specifies that you take the "force weapon" psychic test at the first I step a wound is caused at, combat by combat. Under your erroneous idea you would resolve attack A, and at I6 cause a wound and activate the power - and would then simultaneously "trigger" every other force weapon in squads B, C and D onwards, DIRECTLY contradicting the GK codex.

You have just explained yourself why they occur simultaneously. If you can't see that there is no point in my trying to convince you. It is very clear and simple.

Not all units shoot at the same time. All shots in a unit happen at the same time. A psyckic shooting attacks are made with the rest of the unit. Powers are used in specific phases. There is nothing about not powers happening at the same time as other powers.

Keep in mind, simultaneous events in 40k are resolved sequentially. This is not new.

Example. A Tz Daemonprince wants to cast 2 shooting powers. He has 1 wound left. First is Doombolt, second is gift of chaos. He perils on Doombolt, killing him. He DOES NOT get to attempt gift, as all shooting counts as simultaneous. This is because you resolve these things sequentially. He is dead from the perils before using his second power.

With hammerhand, you use it after assault moves but before blows are struck. If you have 2 seperate hammerhands you are absolutely allowed to try and cast both. You resolve both sequentially.

That said, it is possible that hammerhand does not stack. It is also possible that it will stack. The +1 is applied before other modifiers. So Hammerhand one makes you s5. Hammerhand 2 is now cast. If they stack, hammerhand 2 will now be applied before other modifiers, making you s5. Hammerhand 1 will also be in effect, now making you s6. If GW says they stack. Or if GW says they dont stack.

Simultaneous events cannot occur sequentially. At least in this universe. Ask any quantum mechanic - they will tell you the same in a relativistic manner.

Has GW allowed any stat modifying psyker power to stack in the past?

Black Fiend wrote:Simultaneous events cannot occur sequentially. At least in this universe. Ask any quantum mechanic - they will tell you the same in a relativistic manner.

Highlighted where you missed it.

Black Fiend, you did not see my example? You cant disagree with logic.

A tank with 1 weapon suffers 3 glances simultaneously. First one takes a weapon. Second one takes a weapon. Third one takes a weapon. Because simultaneous results are resolved sequentially in this game, the tank loses a weapon, gets immobilized, and is destroyed.

If you disagree with me, you are saying that 3 weapon destroyed results do not destroy the vehicle, they only destroy the same weapon 3 times. Is this your position? If it is, would you care to point to some evidence?

That is pointless in this particular example as others specific to this case. Generally speaking if a vehicle is destroyed then at the same point in time any lesser damage is completely inconsequential. It doesn't matter in your example since the final result of all three occur at the same time for all practical purposes. It changes nothing overall in terms of the final result. Basically you are arguing about simple semantics.

Afrikan Blonde, you misread my example. The vehicle suffers, at the same time, 3 weapon destroyed results. What happens to the vehicle.

Black Fiend wrote:You have just explained yourself why they occur simultaneously. If you can't see that there is no point in my trying to convince you. It is very clear and simple.

Given I have shown the exact opposite, you need to explain your side as the rules of this forum require you to.

If you stand by your concept that ALL psychic powers occur simultaneously then you have huge problems playing this game, especially when you're told that Warp time occurs at a different point in time to Gift of Chaos, for two examples of how you are wrong.

The GK contradicts your notion rather forcefully with the Nemesis weapon rules, as my example showed. Do you truly believe that squad A triggering their force weapon rule at I6 also means Squads B, C and D, in different combats that *have not even been fought as yet* ALSO trigger their force weapons? Really? It would be news to a lot of players.

Devian has it right - even "simultaneous" events such as damage resolution can be resolved sequentially. HH gives you permission to make the attack "before any blows are struck" - it does not require you to perform the check "at the start of the assault phase", or anything else implying simultaneity.

IN summation: you need to support your argument, or retract it. PLease do so.

Wait what? Psychic Powers are not simultaneous? I would love to see that quote from the rulebook you were going to pull out to prove that Black Fiend.

Hammerhand stacks, there's just nothing to suggest it won't. It's 2 different sources applying the same bonus, thus you get the bonus twice.

I should have been more clear. I apologize for the confusion. What I should have said is psychic tests for the same type powers occur simultaneously.

Black Fiend wrote:I should have been more clear. I apologize for the confusion. What I should have said is psychic tests for the same type powers occur simultaneously.

No, no they dont. Please find a rule to support that, for the 3rd time of asking.

Or, explain how my proof that it is the exact opposite way round is "wrong"

jmurph wrote:Has GW allowed any stat modifying psyker power to stack in the past?

Yes. Psychic Communion, in the same codex.