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Ailaros wrote:
Tournaments have certain things that skew them towards certain types of army lists. In fact, it can skew things so badly, that a static gunline can actually be BETTER in a tournament, instead of a laughingstock. Thus why so many people bring them to them.

For the rest of us, though...

I'm not sure I understand that (Not being sarcastic, I really don't). What specifically about a tournament lends itself to gun line armies----that non-tournament games don't? (Other than not wanting to piss off your friends)

So, a few things.

Firstly, it's the time:points cost ratio. If you only have 3 hours to play a 2500 point game, if you're bringing a horde army, it will take you 45 minutes just to deploy, and another 30 minutes just to move the ~300 models at the top of turn 1. Horde armies work because they out-last their opponents. If the game doesn't progress past turn 3, this ability is totally wasted. As such, tournaments bias towards armies with very short setup times, and very short movement times, like, say, mech lists.

Secondly, tournaments are NOTORIOUS for not having even remotely close to 25% terrain. I mean, seriously, these are pictures I found from batreps of recent tournaments:







Having basically no terrain on the board is seriously detrimental to a horde army, and is seriously helpful to armies that rely on long-range shooting to achieve victory. In this setting, the common parlance is "turkey shoot".

The third thing happens when you combine the large points limit low time limit thing with the large open field thing. Namely, tournaments skew things WAY in favor of armies that have a strong alpha strike component. Putting down few models that are able to utterly wreck your opponent with a lethal long-range salvo is what tournaments incentivize players to do.

Take this into consideration (among other things, like a disturbing tendency to downplay KP games at certain tournaments, among other things), and you see why devestator spam SW and razor BA and leafblower guard are so darn popular. In a game with the appropriate amount of terrain, in a time/points limit that even approximates sane, static armies really suffer. In tournaments, the opposite is true.

I have to jump in here as a Gunline guardsmen. IT LIVES! And to answer the criticism against it, yes mobility is big in 5th, but not essential. Most armies I fight, unless they are a gunline army themselves feel the urge to close ranks with me. What this usually means is that they leave almost always a single unit to baby sit an objective on their side. My typical strategy is to let them move away from that unit then blast it with lots of pie plates (Basilisks usually). This forces my opponent to either send a unit back to their objective or try to continue on and take mine. Either way works for me. Now as the saying goes no plan survives the battlefield but it has worked out pretty well so far.

2500 is large. 1850-2000 are typical games (Just using two of the more popular tournaments---Adepticon/Nova)

I can say from experience that Adepticon tables have sufficient terrain (Two years ago in our visit it was a bit light, now certainly not). I can also state that last year, in the 40k Championship at Adepticon, my game was over with time for a drink all 3 rounds. My friend also finished every game he played---neither of us brought a gun line----and he played a Nid Horde.
The Nova bat reps certainly showed decent terrain setup. I also believe all their games reached final conclusion in terms of turns.


What gives players incentive to form mechanized gun lines right now-----regardless of time----are;


The armor value tables being so friendly to mech armies in 5th
The ability to spam multiple gun platforms over the FOC
The lowering costs of vehicles



RE: KP----it was a bad fix for MSU syndrome. Kill points simply don't work---even if they are secondary objectives. Why? Because a MSU army that is able to spam gun platforms has the ability to engage multiple targets and so effectively cripple opposing KP light armies------it becomes a snowball.

Sure they have more total KPs available---however that is also under the impression you will have any firepower/mobility left to kill them.

gun-line can still work in tourney; You just need certain tourney environments for it to work more in your favor.

I had a list that I was working on building before I started buying a few more tanks and realized that I cannot afford(nor have the time to paint) the remaining 70 models I needed to finish building the list.

the list had 2 Blob gun-platoons(each with full 5 squads, 2 Lascannon/Plasmagun squads, 3 Heavy Bolters/Grenade launchers, 1 Commissar for each Blob, a 3-flamer PCS with P-fist+Medic in each Platoon), It also had a Lascannon/triple-plas vet squad, an AC/Triple-GL Vet Squad, Triple Flamer Harker squad with Demolitions, And an AC CCS with Creed and Kell.

The Whole line would be set with the CCS in the Center(and Likely the triple-GL vets in front of them) Fanning out roughly symmetrical on both Sides. Creed can issue Bring it down to the lascannons(at Ld 10 thanks to kell), and Fire on my target to the heavy bolters. The Entire force was 138 models strong, with 13 of those being HWTs; Fire output should relate to 3-4 neutralized Vehicles per turn(Stunned, immobilized, or destroyed) And a Fair number of Wounds inflicted.

The Way it works is through Attrition; the only models moving would be the 2 PCS's and harker; and it you set up your Army case correctly you should be able to deploy in 5 min or less(Certain Terrain set-ups can actually double that deployment time). Most Tank-happy Tourney environs cannot deal with that many troops, especially when the CCS is well protected(They had carapace, a medic, and hide Behind a unit with Carapace; So a triple 4+ threat, Shoot them and they have a 4+ armor save or a 4+ cover save, then get a 4+ FNP; Shoot the unit in front and they are still safe, and that unit in front still has the 4+ armor).

Ailaros wrote:So, a few things.

Firstly, it's the time:points cost ratio. If you only have 3 hours to play a 2500 point game, if you're bringing a horde army, it will take you 45 minutes just to deploy, and another 30 minutes just to move the ~300 models at the top of turn 1. Horde armies work because they out-last their opponents. If the game doesn't progress past turn 3, this ability is totally wasted. As such, tournaments bias towards armies with very short setup times, and very short movement times, like, say, mech lists.

Secondly, tournaments are NOTORIOUS for not having even remotely close to 25% terrain. I mean, seriously, these are pictures I found from batreps of recent tournaments:

-snip-
Having basically no terrain on the board is seriously detrimental to a horde army, and is seriously helpful to armies that rely on long-range shooting to achieve victory. In this setting, the common parlance is "turkey shoot".

The third thing happens when you combine the large points limit low time limit thing with the large open field thing. Namely, tournaments skew things WAY in favor of armies that have a strong alpha strike component. Putting down few models that are able to utterly wreck your opponent with a lethal long-range salvo is what tournaments incentivize players to do.

Take this into consideration (among other things, like a disturbing tendency to downplay KP games at certain tournaments, among other things), and you see why devestator spam SW and razor BA and leafblower guard are so darn popular. In a game with the appropriate amount of terrain, in a time/points limit that even approximates sane, static armies really suffer. In tournaments, the opposite is true.

In the US at least..this is so sad...some of those boards would not even qualify to be used for fantasy tournaments!!!!

At the ETC the board was much more dense...and locally here we use more terrain at tourneys, but that is because we have much less players than over there in the US...

I try to run a semi gunline, with a outflanking valk/vendetta with melta vets just to try to take out any AV14 as i have trouble killing it at range. Totally works sometimes! othertimes not so much. I found problems with moving 100 guardsmen, or rolling all the dice for there FRF SRF, its a real effort.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:I try to run a semi gunline, with a outflanking valk/vendetta with melta vets just to try to take out any AV14 as i have trouble killing it at range. Totally works sometimes! othertimes not so much. I found problems with moving 100 guardsmen, or rolling all the dice for there FRF SRF, its a real effort.

Hence this is why all infantry horde will not be used in timed tourneys..

But in campaigns or other kinds of competition where time isn't much of a factor I say go for it..I think a horde IG army with a mobile component (ex outflanking platoon, deep strike elements) can still work

I play a 'gunline' guard army, but I think of it more as a 'Heavy Infantry Company'. At 2000 pts I have about 100 men, usually divided into two platoons. I usually have a heavy in each squad, and bring 2-4 HWS as well, so I'm toting almost 20 heavy weapons. That's just the infantry. I usually bring about 7 vehicles, including tanks, artillery, and transports.

The whole argument about 'gunlines are static' is only valid if you keep it static. If you have to move to win, then move to win. Just because one or two heavies aren't firing, because they are moving for a turn or two, doesn't mean autolose. If you don't think that's a 'gunline' any more, well, fine, call it 'hybrid' or whatever you like, but I think of it as a gunline because that's generally how its deployed. NOT how it remains!

I have shared this experience that Volkov describes:

"Most armies I fight, unless they are a gunline army themselves feel the urge to close ranks with me. What this usually means is that they leave almost always a single unit to baby sit an objective on their side. My typical strategy is to let them move away from that unit then blast it with lots of pie plates (Basilisks usually)."

Armies of elite troops have a dilemma - do they leave their troops behind to score or bring them to help break through to my objectives, or destroy my units? Alot of times troops are fairly powerful, and short-ranged, and leaving them to babysit an objective is not always what they want to do. And having lots of ranged firepower (read pie) does mean you can destroy a unit in one-two rounds of focused fire. Contesting with vehicles can also win you the game - as long as the enemy aren't scoring, then there is no reason to capture it. Like I said above I do bring a couple boats, so there is that capability as well, although its easier to neutralize than a fully mechanized army.

Sure, deepstrikers and outflankers can be a serious challenge, but by using the board edges, terrain, and bubblewrap, you can minimize their opportunities for early carnage. In fact, with 100 men, I feel I control deeptriking/outflanking in my deployment zone. They can only go where I want them to. Keeping the vehicles in reserve if you're going second can also help - the infantry can hold they're own for a few turns, they are equipped to handle any target type.

Long story short - THE GUNLINE LIVES. Depending on what you mean by 'gunline', and what you mean by 'lives'. Maybe you wouldn't call my army a gunline, and maybe playing in basements and at the FLGS isn't what you'd call living.

freddieyu1 wrote:

nevertellmetheodds wrote:I try to run a semi gunline, with a outflanking valk/vendetta with melta vets just to try to take out any AV14 as i have trouble killing it at range. Totally works sometimes! othertimes not so much. I found problems with moving 100 guardsmen, or rolling all the dice for there FRF SRF, its a real effort.

Hence this is why all infantry horde will not be used in timed tourneys..

I know a few people who run it and beat face with it. It's a significant amount of work, though, and requires learning to play it fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AgeOfEgos wrote:RE: KP----it was a bad fix for MSU syndrome. Kill points simply don't work---even if they are secondary objectives. Why? Because a MSU army that is able to spam gun platforms has the ability to engage multiple targets and so effectively cripple opposing KP light armies------it becomes a snowball.

Sure they have more total KPs available---however that is also under the impression you will have any firepower/mobility left to kill them.

I agreed with the rest of your stuff, but not the above. I've watched the IG foot horde wreck people and win a GT. I've played against it in Ard Boyz and elsewhere, and it's a facebeater. It's almost unbeatable in a KP game against a mech army.

Mannahnin wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

AgeOfEgos wrote:RE: KP----it was a bad fix for MSU syndrome. Kill points simply don't work---even if they are secondary objectives. Why? Because a MSU army that is able to spam gun platforms has the ability to engage multiple targets and so effectively cripple opposing KP light armies------it becomes a snowball.

Sure they have more total KPs available---however that is also under the impression you will have any firepower/mobility left to kill them.

I agreed with the rest of your stuff, but not the above. I've watched the IG foot horde wreck people and win a GT. I've played against it in Ard Boyz and elsewhere, and it's a facebeater. It's almost unbeatable in a KP game against a mech army.

I'll concede guard blob/gun lines could be the exception to how KPs generally play out. I don't have a great deal of experience playing Guard blob and will defer to your experience/judgment, as I hold both in high esteem.

Outside of the blob though, I would still contend that MSU syndrome is not alleviated by KP. KP wouldn't even be a consideration in any army I built for competitiveness----as most generally the benefits you gain from building MSU greatly outweighs the negative (More total KP available).


I don't know the fix to this either------as they keep making it not only an available option-----but usually the most competitive one.

I'm sick of rolling on armor tables.

Danke, sir!

In general I agree with you that the benefits of MSU usually outweigh the drawbacks of a high KP count. The 2/1 ratio (sometimes higher in tournaments) of objective/KP games also lends to perception and reality of MSU armies being more generally-powerful.

That being said, there are a few builds out there which utilize a lower KP count while still being solid in objective games, and they give the user an automatic matchup advantage when they get paired against the usual transport spam in a KP mission. IG Horde did this and won the first Golden Ticket last year. Alex F's LR BA last year did this, got him into a high final position at the Battle for Salvation NOVA-style event and an invite to the NOVA invitational event. I did it in the one event I won a Golden Ticket at last year; running three landraider SW in 1500pts.

Having to run into a Guard gun line is both a daunting and demoralizing prospect.

It's the reason I decided to go with speed freaks.