Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Even if the Gk vehicle is a psyker at all times, it still doesn't have to take a test from the crucible.


this is because it has no Ld value.


having no Ld characteristic is ALOT different from having Ld0

Grey Templar wrote:Even if the Gk vehicle is a psyker at all times, it still doesn't have to take a test from the crucible.


this is because it has no Ld value.


having no Ld characteristic is ALOT different from having Ld0

Good point. I've been playing a fantasy for the most part lately so please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a non-value an auto-fail/hit/wound etc?

Grey Templar wrote:Even if the Gk vehicle is a psyker at all times, it still doesn't have to take a test from the crucible.


this is because it has no Ld value.


having no Ld characteristic is ALOT different from having Ld0

your alikes said same thing about Furioso Lib. and where they now?

the Furioso's says it's for all psychic purposes that it's Ld10.


the Gk wording is different, enough for it to not work.


@Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Grey Templar wrote:
@Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Your interpretation makes perfect sense then; thanks for clarifying for me.

I think we're all missing a big technicality about this question. It seems that everyone is of the agreement that it is a psyker, but doesn't take a leadership test for crucible of malediction. The catch to this is that the crucible of malediction doesn't care if you don't have a leadership value if you are a psyker. If you do not pass the test the model is removed from the table, and if you did not take the test you did not pass it so you are still removed from the table.

So the original question is still valid, but for a slightly different reason than he asked.

Grey Templar wrote:Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Where did you find that in Rulebook or FAQ? BRB page about tests says only that if you have 0 stat you auto-fail. it have nothing about not having stat at all.

Lone Dragoon wrote:I think we're all missing a big technicality about this question. It seems that everyone is of the agreement that it is a psyker, but doesn't take a leadership test for crucible of malediction. The catch to this is that the crucible of malediction doesn't care if you don't have a leadership value if you are a psyker. If you do not pass the test the model is removed from the table, and if you did not take the test you did not pass it so you are still removed from the table.

So the original question is still valid, but for a slightly different reason than he asked.

I was about to bring up this exact same point.

The CoM does not work the way some people think. It does not require a Psyker to take a test and then suffer a penalty if the test is failed. If this were the case, then a Psyker who could not take the test could never fail it, and thus could never suffer the penalty.

The CoM works in the exact opposite manner. It requires a Psyker to pass a test or face a penalty. If that test, for whatever reason, cannot be taken, then the test is not passed, and there is no way to avoid the penalty.

I know comparisons are always suspect, but imagine it like the final exam for one of your college courses that makes up 100% of your grade. If you do not take the test, you have obviously not passed the test, regardless of how legitimate your reasons for not having taken the test. Consequently, you must suffer the penalty for not passing the test (in this example, probably getting an "Incomplete" for the course) rather than enjoy the benefit of passing it.

Gk vehicle are not Psyker so it has no effect. As for "but it effect the BA Furioso Dread, see the FAQ", well duh there entry says, wait for it....... PSYKER.

Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army (except for chimeras) have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

Noir wrote:Gk vehicle are not Psyker so it has no effect. As for "but it effect the BA Furioso Dread, see the FAQ", well duh there entry says, wait for it....... PSYKER.

I guess my confusion started when I thought, "Why would a vehicle have psyker powers?" then I just figured it was because the crew are psykers. It's a bit ridiculous to think that a machine can do anything with the warp other than augment or help to direct the energies that a psyker puts into it.

It's not like rules need to make sense; I just try to reason things out so that I can better imagine my little toys actually waging war.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Noir wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Well, if that's the case, Noir, then the vehicles can't use Pyskic powers, because nothing in that rule (other than saying they count as a Psyker) specifically says they can actually use powers.

It's simple. The vehicles either count as being a Psyker, or they don't.

I love all those people who want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want all the benefits and none of the negatives.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army (except for chimeras) have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

I've bolded the important section for you, as previous posters have as well.

They are only treated as psykers and ld 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods. That's it. Otherwise, they aren't psykers.

Crucible states you have to pass a leadership test, this is not a psychic test, psychic tests are specifically designated in the main rulebook.

The furioso libby keeps getting used as an example, but it is worded totally differently.

A furioso librarian is a psyker,...and is treated as ld10 for all psychic purposes.

Big difference.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

Noir wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Well, if that's the case, Noir, then the vehicles can't use Pyskic powers, because nothing in that rule (other than saying they count as a Psyker) specifically says they can actually use powers.

It's simple. The vehicles either count as being a Psyker, or they don't.

I love all those people who want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want all the benefits and none of the negatives.

Except they can use their psychic power, fortitude, because their rule specifically states that they are a psyker, and ld 10, for the purpose of PSYCHIC TESTS, which is what you take to use a psychic power (ie, the aforementioned fortitude).

It's not wanting to have your cake and eat it too, it's just the way the rules are actually written.

Saldiven wrote:

Noir wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Well, if that's the case, Noir, then the vehicles can't use Pyskic powers, because nothing in that rule (other than saying they count as a Psyker) specifically says they can actually use powers.

It's simple. The vehicles either count as being a Psyker, or they don't.

I love all those people who want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want all the benefits and none of the negatives.

Maybe reread the GK Psyker Piolt rule, becouse the rule say you can use Payker powers, or the only one it has anyways. The rule dose not make you a Psyker. Only the word "Psyker" in the units entry dose that.

penek wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Where did you find that in Rulebook or FAQ? BRB page about tests says only that if you have 0 stat you auto-fail. it have nothing about not having stat at all.

So what actually happens if a Gk vehicle is a psyker is the game breaks and you can no longer play. you both lose.



the logical compromise is to say that models without certain stats are not required to take any tests associated with that stat. the Gk vehicle counts as having ld10 for the psychic test and if being countered by a psychic hood only.

Grey Templar wrote:
So what actually happens if a Gk vehicle is a psyker is the game breaks and you can no longer play. you both lose.

In the grimdarkness of the future there is no compromise!!!

It's a freaking rhino....just shoot it and move on. I would treat it the same as the daemonic posession rule that chaos has and doesn't have to roll anything for.

noir wrote:No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Page 50 of the BRB second paragraph on the page, first sentence.

Psykers can use on psychic power per player turn.

In other words you must be a psyker to use psychic powers.

noir wrote:Maybe reread the GK Psyker Piolt rule, becouse the rule say you can use Payker powers, or the only one it has anyways. The rule dose not make you a Psyker. Only the word "Psyker" in the units entry dose that.

Psykers are the only ones that can make psychic tests to use psychic powers. Psychic pilot itself says, A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) ...

It does not say it is only a psyker when it's convenient, it is treated as a psyker. That means at all times, and if something forces a psyker to make an LD test it must make a test if able. As it does not have the same wording as the furioso libby, it cannot take a leadership test. Since it did not pass a leadership test it is removed from play, as per crucible of malediction. The fact that it can use psychic powers is enough to make it a psyker, but add in the fact that psychic pilot says it is treated as a psyker you take the good and the bad with that. Reminds me of an old saying, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's not a dog. It's a duck.

The words counts as have become ubiquitous to the game of 40k, and if you count as something (Or are treated as something) you are that thing.

and the rest of the line gose"for psychic test and psychic hood." Notice nothing about being a Psyker, funny that.

and the rest of the line gose"for psychic test and psychic hood." Notice nothing about being a Psyker, funny that.

It is treated as a Psyker, that means it is a psyker. It has Ld10 for psychic tests and hoods ONLY.

The way it is worded you could read it as it is only treated as a psyker for psychic hoods and tests but isn't the natural language used (though a valid interpretation).

So either it is only a psyker for those 2 occurances and is in now way a psyker at other times or it is a Psyker at all times and thus is removed instantly by CoM.

Note if it is only a Psyker for psychic tests and hoods it can't ever use its powers effects as it can not declare it is using a power (as it is not a psyker) and cannot benefit from their result (because it is not a psyker). Which kind of tellls you which reading is correct.

So the fact the rule says for psychic test, dosen't mean it can take psychic test (how powers are used), odd that.

Noir wrote:So the fact the rule says for psychic test, dosen't mean it can take psychic test, odd that.

Here's the rule:

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

(emphasis mine)

A conjunction, which "and" is one of, indicates the joining of two clauses. In the case of "and" this means that one thing is being added to by another thing.

By applying some logic, it's quite easy to assume the following (in logical order):
1) A vehicle with this rule is treated as a psyker.
2) It has a leadership value of 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods.

Now stop and ask yourself why the vehicle has this rule. It's difficult to imagine that a rhino, with the limited machine spirit that the IoM utilizes, has access to the warp. That means that someone, probably a crew member(s), is using a specialized psyker ability which makes him a psyker. Being as a Grey Knight is driving the vehicle, logic would dictate that this is the case which would further lead one to believe that the vehicle is being treated as a psyker for game simplification purposes and as vehicles (and their occupants) don't normally need be concerned with leadership tests, you might also be led to believe that also for game simplification purposes they added the second clause of the sentence which details the process for using this normally unused characteristic.

Don't believe me? Take the conjunction out of the sentence and make two sentences:
1. A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).
2. (It has) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Personally, I don't care either way because I don't know anyone who plays GKs but it's extremely frustrating when GW writes such obscenely poor rules. If they would just hire people with better writing skills (or at least grammar skills) this wouldn't be an issue.

agnosto wrote:Personally, I don't care either way because I don't know anyone who plays GKs but it's extremely frustrating when GW writes such obscenely poor rules. If they would just hire people with better writing skills (or at least grammar skills) this wouldn't be an issue.

Yep. But they don't. So...

sourclams wrote:

agnosto wrote:Personally, I don't care either way because I don't know anyone who plays GKs but it's extremely frustrating when GW writes such obscenely poor rules. If they would just hire people with better writing skills (or at least grammar skills) this wouldn't be an issue.

Yep. But they don't. So...

Yeah, that's the sad part. Well, at least it gives us all something to talk about.

agnosto wrote:

A conjunction, which "and" is one of, indicates the joining of two clauses. In the case of "and" this means that one thing is being added to by another thing.

Not true. "And" can be used to join two clauses, but when this occurs, a comma is still used to separate the two clauses.

In this example there is no comma, therefore "and" is being used as "and" is in listing.

In this case, no comma, no separate clause, it's all one idea.

Which leads me to believe that other than for the purpose of what's listed, they aren't psykers.

Otherwise that assassin with the pistol will be getting many more shots per turn.

lucasbuffalo wrote:
Not true. "And" can be used to join two clauses, but when this occurs, a comma is still used to separate the two clauses.

In this example there is no comma, therefore "and" is being used as "and" is in listing.

In this case, no comma, no separate clause, it's all one idea.

Which leads me to believe that other than for the purpose of what's listed, they aren't psykers.

Otherwise that assassin with the pistol will be getting many more shots per turn.

Yes, one what to link to independant clauses is to place a common but common usage is such that, if the sentence is adequately short enough, it's not required. This situation is very similar to how a comma is used in a series (several items listed together) a comma may or may not be used:
1. He likes to eat apples, oranges, bananas, and pears.
2. He likes to eat apples, oranges, bananas and pears.
Both of the above sentences are equally acceptable.

Now, using what I know of English grammar I'll create sentences similar to the rule that is in question:
1. A model with this rule is considered to be jump infantry and is able to move 6" during the assault phase.
2. A model with this rule is considered to be jump infantry, and is able to move 6" during the assault phase.

The only difference between the above sentences is the comma usage which does not change the meaning of the sentence whatsoever. All you have to do is use the same deductive reasoning that I showed earlier, separate the clauses and you have an idea of what the sentence means. Some teachers tell students to use commas where my class was constantly told by out high-school English teacher, "Don't go comma crazy."

I tend to make the assumption, based upon the quality of their work, that GW staffers are semi-literate and/or there is a complete absence of an editing entity. This means that my interpretation may very well not be RAI but you can't fault myself or others if we interpret it differently from you. Until the baboons stop throwing excrement at each other and decide to write an FAQ, players that differ in opinion would be advised to simply "roll for it."

Vehicles are not affected.

Read the wording, remember it says:

'It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods is it either of these things.

DeathReaper wrote:Vehicles are not affected.

Read the wording, remember it says:

'It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods is it either of these things.

I guess I'm going to split hairs again on this issue. You said to read the wording, I recommend you do the same and not misquote the rule.

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

If they meant that the vehicle is only a psyker in that one instance, why didn't they simply say:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) only in relation to psychic tests and psychic hoods at which time it is considered to have Leadership 10.

Instead, they give us the above which basically means that the vehicle is treated as a psyker and has a leadership 10 only in situations of psychic tests and psychic hood checks. It was like a 3 year old sat down and forgot about all the rules and wargear out there that affects psykers and decided that there were only two events that would make a psyker need a leadership.

In any event, I'm done here. Anyone who wishes is more than welcome to disagree with me and, like I said before, I admit readily that I may be wrong but they'll need to FAQ it or absent that, I'll just go with what the majority of people think at my FLGS. It amazes me that the same company makes a game played by so many with so little regard to the clarity of the rules they write.

agnosto wrote:...why didn't they simply say...
... It was like a 3 year old sat down and forgot about all the rules and wargear out there that affects psykers and decided that there were only two events that would make a psyker need a leadership...

In any event, I'm done here. Anyone who wishes is more than welcome to disagree with me and, like I said before, I admit readily that I may be wrong but they'll need to FAQ it or absent that, I'll just go with what the majority of people think at my FLGS. It amazes me that the same company makes a game played by so many with so little regard to the clarity of the rules they write.

I would be amazed if they had 3 year olds writing the rules, they would be more understandable. You expected GW to write super clear rules? That is a good one, made me laugh. There are many things they can word better, reference BA Dread Librarian's "For Psychic Purposes"

I wrote 'It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.' thats what the rules say.
Then I broke the sentence down into its basic parts, since the original has been repeated many, many, many times.

I do not know why they write the rules the way they do, maybe because they are on the British standard and we are on the american standard as far as the English language goes.

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Awesome so its powers are useless. It can't ever use a power as it is not a psyker until it takes a psychic test and the power can't take effect because guess what as soon as the test is done he's no-longer a psyker...

Either that or the vehicle counts as a psyker at all times and thus is able to use his powers by counting as Ld10 for the test required to activate them (and for the purpose of psychichoods).