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The genestealers will hit on turn 2, but they'll only hit a unit or two, wipe it out, then die in a hail of additional gunfire.

I feel that mauleed's comment about the difference between 1500 and 1850 is spot on.  While with nids, you can basically squeeze everything in your army into 1500.  Usually you've filled out your gaunts (min squads),genestealerss, raveners, and TMC's (godzilla).   Basically I've noticed its rare for you to increase your troop choices much between 1500 and 1850.  Instead, there's a sharp increase in quality of elites and heavies.  Moving on to 1850 and espeically tournies, the only thing nids really get is a some lictors, one more carny, some tyrant guard, and some thropes.  While these choices are pretty good, they are not as efficient as the extra 350 pts marines tend to get .  These 350 points really fill out the marines either with more mobility, more termi assault cannons, or more min-maxed squads.  While i think a proper nid list at 1500 would have an advantage over a mauleed-pattern marine list, I think that at 1850 mauleed list definitely has an advantage.  While the move to 1850 was supposed to promote more use of cooler less efficient units such as LR, termis, and monoliths, it has also led to some nasty marine and eldar list that just use more efficient basic units to bring beatdown (anyone say iron warriors?).

Posted By mauleed on 02/21/2006 1:22 PM

Sure, ridiculous amounts of terrain, like 50%+ will make it so that marines only have a single turn (or sometimes not even that) to shoot nids, but when are you going to see terrain like that?

Not nearly as often as you will see a completely open board, maybe some tall patches of 6+ grass. 

Also, I agree that terrain doesn't necessarily hurt marines.  But my point as you should see is that lack of terrain does necessarily hurt nids.  If the tyranid player can utilize terrain such that opening shots begin at 18", he is at an advantage over the marine player.  If the marine player can utilize terrain such that shots begin at 30", he is at a huge advantage over the tyranid player.

That is all.

 

By my count its:
12" deployment (some missions 15)
12" moves
6" scuttler
6" assualt
2d6 fleet.

38-48" in 2 turns before taking into account a few "s lost to difficult terrain checks.
41-51" on the 15" deployment missions.

One of the reasons I like Zoans is they can be deployed first, you get a 3 unit push back all in 1 HS slot. Means when the enemy is forced so near the table edge if they lose combat they run off, know no fear or not.

Though I haven't bothered with 2nd turn assualt nids in a while.

Except for the fact that there is nothing stopping his mobile list from stepping back after taking the first shots, vastly decreasing the likelihood of your opening assault hitting everything you want.

Of course, that ignores the effect of afforementioned terrain... and even 3d6 crap out from time to time, generally when you least want it. So, you either come out piecemeal, or you delay the impact to hit together. In which case, you either get whupped piecemeal, or you spend another turn under the guns.

Also, being pushed forward to the hilt means that you're in prime position to be shot, unless you get really lucky on terrain. Without cover saves, even EC broods will die like dogs.

I did play a 2nd turn assualt list myself back in 3rd ed and it generally did assualt on turn 2.
You cannot count on it with everything but if you really want you can often assualt 2 enemy squads, sometimes putting 2 gaunts to die to assualt a 2nd squad and stop their shooting is a good idea.

I liked gargs myself as they are faster than most.
With 30+2d6 movement over 2 turns including assualt you are looking at a good 32-42" movement, throwing in 12-15" deployments your looking at a decent 44-57" of table coverage by turn 2. Hard to miss that 2nd turn assualt.

Unit does not really like those 2 AC termi squads but what does.
12pts models that drop like flies don't really work in many lists but 2nd turn assualt lists are the exception.

Oh the good old days when you had a few rending mutants in those squads
Nothing like the gargs attacking a defiler and CSM squad at the same time, normal attacks against the marines and the rending agains the defiler

I should play a game or 3 with the old dex just for fun....wraithlords dying to rippers...hilarious. (good times)

Posted By vsurma on 02/21/2006 3:41 PM
By my count its:
12" deployment (some missions 15)
12" moves
6" scuttler
6" assualt
2d6 fleet.

38-48" in 2 turns before taking into account a few "s lost to difficult terrain checks.
41-51" on the 15" deployment missions.

One of the reasons I like Zoans is they can be deployed first, you get a 3 unit push back all in 1 HS slot. Means when the enemy is forced so near the table edge if they lose combat they run off, know no fear or not.

Though I haven't bothered with 2nd turn assualt nids in a while.

Couple of points:

1. 38"-48" in 2 turns is correct. But the ones that get shot first will be the ones going 48", and most of my army will have stepped back behind 40". You'll catch, as I said, a unit or two on turn 2.

2. In the 15" deployment missions you get pushed back 24". This means that you'll be funnelled if you try to get on the 15" line (since you'll be pushed back from in on half the board), and it's even easier to figure out what to shoot and when to back up.

The problem with 'nid being competitive against marines is that, as everyone here has said, they have about a 50% chance against a good marine army if terrain is beneficial. However, given the vast numbers of competetive marine armies out there, I think you're more likely than not to run into a rock for you scissors in a given tournament. The three most obvious armies out there that can do this are the SAFH marines like Mauleed's, shooty/daemonbomb Slaanesh with its insane numbers of high strength AP4 firepower and the ubiquitous Oblit/4HS Iron Warriors. Slaaneshi is especially worrying as your Carnifexes can be dragged down by the daemonettes while the marines shoot up the little guys. DPs can be a major threat as well (Stature, strength, speed or flight, with dread axe means no save whatsoever).

I don't need to tell you how Iron Warriors can really mess up your plans. My Iron Warrior list I just posted has a potential 10 lascannons a turn, and 10 autocannons. It also has a tooled DP, a counter-charge pfist unit and 6 pfist weilding Obliterators.

In short, while you may be able to win against individual marine armies, I think you'd struggle against the optimized lists you see in tournaments. I would rate Godzilla as a potential tournament winner based upon opponent selction and terrain on the table. I'd rate them with Webway DE, Drop Pod Marines, JSJ Tau, and Alaitoc Eldar. Potentially Top 5-10, but not relliably. The "reliable" top 10 would probably SAFH Marines or Iron Warriors, Daemonbomb Slaanesh, Mech Eldar, Ulthwe Super Council, and Optimized Feral Orks.

Of course, this is all theoryhammer and at 1850 points at that. 1500 Points might as well be a different game.   

1. 38"-48" in 2 turns is correct. But the ones that get shot first will be the ones going 48", and most of my army will have stepped back behind 40". You'll catch, as I said, a unit or two on turn 2.

Course this means you won't be shooting much if you want to move those "heavy" troops and assault cannons only reach 24" so they cannot move back too much if they want to shoot (though if your really good with distances it helps)

Though some (well alot) of tyranid players like to mix slow and fast troops I always felt if your going with a 2nd turn assualt list then EVERYTHING should be assualting on turn 2. So if you want to shoot the fast things then fine, that is everything.

My 3rd ed nid army was just gargs, horms, winged tyrants, leaping rippers.
rippers where the only slow unit but they where also the most powerful unit (good old rending ripper days) so if they lagged a bit behind that was ok.

2. In the 15" deployment missions you get pushed back 24". This means that you'll be funnelled if you try to get on the 15" line (since you'll be pushed back from in on half the board), and it's even easier to figure out what to shoot and when to back up.

zoanthroapes are pretty nice if you get the first turn as they can be deployed seperatly you can take over the whole table by pussing the enemy back that 24" in 3 areas. (most of the table) Though I'm not sure I would be using zoans in a 2nd turn assualt list, I got bored of the whole assualt on turn 2 so I have not played it in 4th ed myself.

I personally see Tyranids as a contender for tournament wins atleast up to 1500pts, never having played a larger tournament I cannot really say, I know my own shooty nids don't get any real guns when the points go over which is annoying. I want more guns not more CC.

The thing that kills nids is versatile weapons, equally adept at killing swarms and TMC's. We nids had the original "patent" on rending, but it was at least only in close combat and limited its sphere of influence. Mauleed style marines have the wonderful assault cannon packed everywhere, equally awesome against everything in the tyranid list. IW have obliterators with their multiple weapons and ordinance/hs choices. Eldar have always had starcannons. These all-encompasing weapons are so versatile and don't really suffer any drawbacks in matchups and target selection. In 3rd edition, it seemed like you could catch a heavy las/plas user with his pants down with a horde and vice versa. Now these "super weapons" bridge the gap too well.

Well 240pts for 2 ACs means they pay a rather high price for the versatility.

I would not mind rending from 24" away....

Well, do be fair, Ed's marines have only 7 ACs, I believe.
They also have 5 Las/Plas for heavier targets and 3 Pred Destructors for horde.
The ACs are kind of both, which is very handy, but his list really doesn't go crazy on the ACs as much as others, like the Lysanderwing.

Come to think of it, shouldn't Lysanderwing be definitely in the top 10. I can't think of much that can reliably deal with the amount of firepower that they put out. 13-15 Asscans can really hurt.
If you don't think so, consider that this is the equivalent of having the same number of lascannons or heavy bolters, whichever you need, it can do better than either against any target except liths.

As a note, can oblits morph assault cannons?

Not the ACs that matter, I can tell you that much.

Obliterators can do pretty much anything. Except Rend.

I think the simple reason that 'nids aren't serious tournament contenders at 1700 points + is that they have no answer for the 7+ assault cannons or the 20 man councils or the 4 indirect HS choices. At least, not Godzilla nids and they get screwed by escalation. The beauty of Mauleed's list is that everything except the preds and speeders can start on the table. They have the mobility/range to come in late game and still effect the outcome. If someone has lots of indirect of for some reason outshoots Mauleed's marines, he can keep the land speeders and termies up in the sky and deep strike them. Basically, his army has an answer to every army out there. Tyranids just don't. The same is true for Iron Warriors, and Ulthwe Eldar. They have an answer to tanks, infiltrators, deep strikers, escalation, alpha recon, Assault armies, Shooty armies, and mobile armies.

Obliterators cannot morph assault cannons.  But they can morph twin linked meltas and plasma guns.  Typically my oblits were able to reliably generate 2 plasma hits per turn or a melta hit. In multiples of 2 or 3, they generally destroy what they aim at. They don't need no steeenkeeng assault cannons...

I don't think the assualt cannons are the biggest problem for zilla, unless the opponent is really good with ranges and really only just comes inside the 24", that atleast would make it hard to get into CC.

20 man councils

Well if your talking about us not being able to take 2 psychic hoods then yea your right but neither can any other non marine list. We can take 5 screams or 4 screams + shadows in the warp, I don't think any other races has even this.

It's true we don't really have anything that can deepstrike (I would not count ravs myself) with any decent shooting power, lictors are restricted to terrain and rather weak imo.

Though escalation never bothered me too much.

Never had the chance to play against a tooled up IW army yet so I can't really say much about them.

I would not go so far as to say nids are the best or easiest tournament armies out there but I think their right up there.

Don't be to quick to judge without playing a few games against a good list with good general. If you can find one.

Just for reference V, my regular playing partner is a nid player. He's taken his nids to two GTs, won one and came in 3rd in the other. So I'd certainly call him "good". He is always the yardstick I use, which is why I feel as strongly as I do on this.

I will say that you do seem to know what you're doing, but I'm curious if you aren't simply the smartest guy in your area. What sorts of tournaments/events have you taken your nids to? Appologies if I'm off base. I just want a frame of reference.

And as for those singing the praises of my shooty marines, there is an army I don't have an answer to: drop pod marines. Since I've been playing drop pod marines myself I've developed a few tricks that will help my marines, but I definitely start out in a serious hole. And of course any army that can outshoot me beats me unless the player running it makes a mistake. But that's been true as long as I've been playing 40k.

Well I live in Finland so I go to pretty much all the tournies they hold here.
The scandi GT was the first overseas tourny I have been too so far (only been playing 18 months)

I was curious about whether or not there was a paper to the maul-marines rock.

Podders, eh? Can definitely see that being a problem.

Maybe the pod list you came up with Ed, but it seems like 90% of the pod armies out there are dreadnought heavy. Maybe people just haven't gotten to grips with the pod army capabilities yet.