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Astartes Chapters are somewhat outside of the hierarchy of the Imperium, Even Inquisitors are careful not to throw too much weight around with marines. THeir chapter worlds are exempt from any form of guard founding, tithes or common imperial regulation, and "officially" no one commands them except the Emperor

Exopheric wrote:Space Marines accept only the most promising male candidates from their particular recruiting world(s) that happen to be lucky enough to be alive when the Marines have the resources and authority to recruit

Fixed.

Marine recruitment does the best with what it has, but it doesn't necessarily have the best.

Platuan4th wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Indeed. For all intents and purposes the High Lords of Terra = the Emperor when it comes to ruling and ordering the IoM. Reading more and more, it's very clear the Emperor is a figurehead more than anything else.

But the high lords understand tact, they don't want to push a chapter of loyal space marines into that position. This is why the oldest marine chapters still follow their own traditions regarding the Big E and haven't been forced into the Imperial Cult.
There was a Citadel Journal article some years ago that was fascinating, it regarded a Dark Angel successor chapter in the Age of Apostasy when Vandire tried an experiment to see if he could forcibly convert the space marines. He sent the Imperial Fleet to destroy the chapter's homeworld, most of the chapter fought but they sent their scout company away to bear witness.
Non cannon I suppose, but the scout company emerged from the warp mid M40 and joined a planetary rebellion somewhere. Had rules for playing "archangel" squads (veteran marines in scout armor) and infiltrating in crowds of civilians.

I'm under the impression that the High Lords and the Inquisition pick their battles with marine chapters. They do not want to risk insulting a chapter over a small, trifling matter.

But at the same time, they do have the power to force compliance. Both groups have almost unlimited resources at their command. If you accept FW lore as canon, then the High Lords have the Minotaurs chapter for just this reason. To keep the more willful chapters in line.

From a scientific standpoint, Astartes are no longer the same species as humans, as they cannot interbreed. They are technically Homo Astartes, not Homo Sapiens.


As for respect, I think that I read that most Marines have a respect for the Death Korp of Krieg, just because of the stoic way that they wage war.

From what I've read in the various Horus Heresy books and Imperial Armor books, it seems that the Guard and Space Marines have a distant roll in campaigns. If you get to read the Assault on Castorel Novem, you see how the Raven Guard interact with their guard counterparts. I believe that in the end, a Space Marine doesn't really 'respect' or 'hold high' anyone who dies doing their duty.

Space marines don't crave fame outright, they live to fight, it's all they're meant to do, so in the grand scheme of things, I don't know that they really think in the way of 'respecting' them. Just a fellow worker who is under-altered to do the same task they are sometimes sent to undertake. That doesn't mean that they feel put out to help humans, which is quite obvious in many books.

Inquisitors speak with the authority of the Emperor himself. They can therefore give orders to the Astartes...

But of course no Inquisitor would be foolish enough to put this to the test. So they request. And no Astartes Chapter Master would refuse without good reason.

IIRC raven guard fight for the guardsmen on kastorel novem even though Imperial commanders have abbandoned them

Miraclefish wrote:Inquisitors speak with the authority of the Emperor himself. They can therefore give orders to the Astartes...

But of course no Inquisitor would be foolish enough to put this to the test. So they request. And no Astartes Chapter Master would refuse without good reason.

True, but so do the Astartes.

Space Marines are literally the Children of the Emperor. the true nobility of the Imperium.


the High Lords are little more then advisors/regents. they can advise, and may even have the power to force compliance, but they don't have the authority to do so.

there is a difference between power and authority. Power is the Ability to do something. Authority is the right.



the High Lords really only have the authority to found Astartes chapters. once the chapter is founded they really have no authority to tell a chapter to do something.

the High Lords could order a chapter to do something. What the Chapter Master does is his descision and he really has the final word.


Now, a chapter that disobeys the High Lords would certaintly be under scrutiny for why they didn't do the order, but a chapter, as an autonomous organization, has its own operations it is conducting aqnd will weigh the needs of the Imperium against each other. the survival of the Chapter takes presidence over all other problems.

If a chapter was under strength(just took some major losses) and an order from the High Lords came in for them to join a crusade they would most likely not follow the order. the failure of a crusade will hurt the Imperium less then the loss of a Chapter would. the Chapter could, after regaining their numbers, retake a hundred worlds and participate in dozens more crusades. who cares if this one little crusade fails or X planet falls. the crusade or planet is NOT worth the loss of a chapter(or even keeping a chapter at a basically useless level of operatability for even longer)


and with a thousandish Chapters in play at any one time, the High Lords probably never give direct orders to Marine Chapters anyway. it would simply take too much time to even do.


Marine Chapters are independent of other organizations(some might say the other organizations are independent of them) for a reason. so that no one organization or man holds absolute power at any one time. Thats why the HH happened in the first place and the Imperium has all its problems in the first place.

Grey Templar wrote:True, but so do the Astartes.

No, Astartes have nowhere near as much political power and clout as the Inquisition.

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Yes, against orders, the Raven Guard break formation to save those remnants of the Elysian force on Novem, and in fact are able to save some of them, which would have never survived without their aid. It's just sad to realize that those Guardsman that survived were just sacrificed 2 years later as members of another IG unit.

The Inquisition can only make orders with the approval of the High Lords of Terra. Even with the Vraks war, the Council of the Inquisition petitioned to take over command. Although the Inquisition works outside of the normal circles of the Imperium that does not mean they answer to no one. They are just of higher rank and status then the Astartes Chapters, although Astartes can do as they like in most cases.

Cottonjaw wrote:I'm fairly sure Commisar Yarrick and Ursarkar Creed could tell pretty much any space marine ranked captain or below to go play in traffic.

Nope not Scarius, or Captain Angelous, or a few others.
Another chapter I believe is the Salamanders who help everyone like the guard.
Raven Guard go out of their way to save imperial guard regiments.

Space marines are children of the emperor, they can be ordered to only by the Highlords of terra, and an inquisitor only if he has the balls enough to ask a chapter council. Remember there is not only just the Chapter Master, there is also the Chapter Council.

SM won't ignore a guard regiment in need unless they have more important things to do.
However, very few guard officers have the respect or the rank to order an SM about without his permission.
Thier rank structures are outside of each other and would only join if they pledged themselves under a Warmaster.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:True, but so do the Astartes.

No, Astartes have nowhere near as much political power and clout as the Inquisition.

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Inquisition does not have absolute authority, that power resides with the HighLords of Terra, and the Admech.

I never said they did. Only that their political clout was far, far greater than that of the Astartes.

Well no duh, The astrates can't have political power, because if they did they would be too powerful.

IMO, aside from rightly high ranked officers (Yarrick, Creed, etc.), I think there's only one guardsman that commands enough respect to do anything close to "Ordering" a Space Marine around.

Ollanius Pius.

Asherian Command wrote:Well no duh, The astrates can't have political power, because if they did they would be too powerful.

Sure they can.
If enough people support a chapter then the chapter can do far more things than a chapter with no support can.
This tends to be limited to the older chapters however but some of the newer ones that have formed relationships with other Imperial organisations also have some political power.
Obviously an Inquisitor will have more power but Inquisitors are sneaky and tend to know the best way to wield it unless they are idiots.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Depends on the Chapter.

Thats what Horus thought

High Lords vs. Chapter equals dead chapter, unless they hide like girly boys in a warp storm.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

tavoittamaton wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Depends on the Chapter.

You can always go renegade!

No, I Just mean ain't no one tell The Space Wolves no nothing.

Battlefleet Terra does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

phantommaster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

*hem hem* Inquisition?

The Inquisition can ask. They don't technically have the power to control marines but it is much better for everyone if they do.
Some inquisitors abuse their power massively...

To paraphrase a Deep Space Nine quote:
"If you don't do what the Inquisition says then they send the Grey Knights. Then you die."

The Inquisition has to ask, sure.

But they can ask pretty damned convincingly. Such as having the power to prevent chapters from recruiting, or force them on a suicidal crusade, or sanction them to prevent them from getting as many resources (and thus being unable to repair or produce new equipment), or simply wiping them out in the most extreme cases.

Naturally they wouldn't do this to a first or second founding chapter unless they wet completely and utterly to chaos, but these chapters tend to be the most loyal anyway (even if a few of them are troublesome, their loyalty isn't doubted). Not so much so for the later chapters, to whom an Inquisitorial request is often an order in all but name.

Something from the 15th founding, or the 20th founding, or whatever other late foundings? They'd definitely not want to say no to an Inquisitor. Their ties to their progenitors, if they even have them, are weak. But having an Inquisitor owe them favors? THAT they can rely on in tough times.

n3koj1n wrote:IMO, aside from rightly high ranked officers (Yarrick, Creed, etc.), I think there's only one guardsman that commands enough respect to do anything close to "Ordering" a Space Marine around.

Ollanius Pius.

Balls of STEEL!

All Hail Ollanius Pius!

High Lords vs. Chapter equals dead chapter, unless they hide like girly boys in a warp storm.

That might also depend on the chapter.

A First Founding chapter like BA, DA or SW would be extremely hard to eradicate and leave none of their successors or other chapters wondering if fighting for the Imperium is worth it after all; the destruction of a Loyal First Founder would shake the very foundations of the Imperium and the chances of younger Chapters turning to Chaos will be greatly increased; what is the point in fighting for something that is just as willing to sweep you aside as if you were an annoying insect?

There is also the chance that other founding chapters decide to help the one under attack, after all they've fought and existed side-by-side for thousands of years and formed a bond between them that strengthens with every battle they fight alongside each other in and with every year that passes; if you attack one, you attack them all.

If it was High Lords vs Younger Chapter, like a 21st founding, then they'd have a lot more power. Who will miss a chapter that has barely forged its name in history? Whilst the Dark Angels or Ultramarines are names that are revered from one side of the galaxy to the other, what is the chance that they will know Chapter X of <Insert latest founding here>?

The younger and less influential and important the chapter, the more likely the High lords are going to be able to do something about them; the older, wiser, more influential, more powerful and more important the chapter, the harder time they will have until they try it on a loyal 1st Founder, where they stand a very small chance.

What would happen if the Blood Angels or Dark Angels turned around and said, "You know what, no; shove it up your arse." to a High Lord? My guess is very little, if anything.

That might also depend on the chapter.

A First Founding chapter like BA, DA or SW would be extremely hard to eradicate and leave none of their successors or other chapters wondering if fighting for the Imperium is worth it after all; the destruction of a Loyal First Founder would shake the very foundations of the Imperium and the chances of younger Chapters turning to Chaos will be greatly increased; what is the point in fighting for something that is just as willing to sweep you aside as if you were an annoying insect?
***That’s how the real world operates, why not here? If a dictatorship is threatened and other elements begin to crack those elements are dealt with extremely harshly. You’re positing that marine chapters effectively rebel.


There is also the chance that other founding chapters decide to help the one under attack, after all they've fought and existed side-by-side for thousands of years and formed a bond between them that strengthens with every battle they fight alongside each other in and with every year that passes; if you attack one, you attack them all.
***In the words of our spiritual founder and guiding light: “so its treason then?”


What would happen if the Blood Angels or Dark Angels turned around and said, "You know what, no; shove it up your arse." to a High Lord? My guess is very little, if anything.
****Battle fleet Bakka tears them a new donkey-cave. Ask Huron Blackheart how that turned out. They are traitors then and will be treated as such. In fact the reprisals would be doubly harsh to make sure no other chapters follow suit. Withouth support, hunted by the Imperial Navy, fellow marines, GKs, Imquisitorial ships, and the Admech with their special toys…no the glory boys will be running for the nearest warpstorm faster than you can say “Nova Shells…INCOMING!”
The glory boys are useful and they are tough, but they are watched. There will be no second Horus Heresy.

Can't recall where I read it, or if it was even canon, but there was a great little story about a Guardsman getting some "respect" from Astartes.

Basic outline: his platoon is massacred and he says F*** this! I'm running away! Sneaking here and there he eventually literally bumps into two space marines. Scared shitless he pertends he's the sole survivor and makes himself out to be a hero and is looking to return to the front lines.

The Astartes, knowing he's pretty far from the front lines, wink at each other and pertend to play along.

They tell him they have need of a hero, and all he needs to do is take a message up the road all stealthy like. Thinking that it will take him further from the front lines and away from the marines, he accepts.

Of course, stealthy for a guardsman means making enough noise to alert every enemy comabatant (i think they were orks) within a mile. When the enemy attacks (with melee weapons for some reason) the Guardsman nearly sh**'s himself and is firing his lasgun like a madman! It's at this point that the two marines reveal themselves, having used the guardsman to lure out an enemy patrol far behind the front lines. (slaughter of like 50 enemy by 2 Astartes ensues. The guardsman may have gotten one kill.)

The Marines, impressed with the fact he lived (whether really impressed or pretending is left to the reader) and fought "like an Astartes" give him a medal (it may have been a purity seal, I don't really remember) and tell him he has honored the Emperor with his fighting this day.

Filled with pride at his actions he then goes right back to the front lines to rejoin his company. Where his Commissar immediately goes "Where the H*** have you been! Playing at Space Marine?! A likely story! Get in there and fight for the Emperor!" And for the first time ever, the Guardsman understands this rhetoric.
***End Story***

Avatar 720 wrote:What would happen if the Blood Angels or Dark Angels turned around and said, "You know what, no; shove it up your arse." to a High Lord? My guess is very little, if anything.

THAT all depends on the personality of said high lord as well. Remember, the reach of the Imperium is long indeed-- they can crush any of the chapters, including the ultramarines or black templars if necessary. It's mostly that they don't want to, they're too valuable, and they've proven their loyalty even if they're troublesome at times, and it's not worth the large amount of effort it would take to stamp them out for their troublesome nature. And yes, it would take a LOT of effort. There's better things they can do with the time and resources it would take.

Id say that any man standing side by side in the face of true hell knowing that they porbably wont live, would get respect from a true SM. The Hounour alone but also standing together as Battle brothers would, but with less protection demands respects.

The Inquisition asking is more of a technicality...
Sm chapters are proud of their independance and if they percieve a threat to that then they start to get defensive.
If an Inq. asks instead of ordering the SM chapter feels unthreatened and will probably help.

purplefood wrote:The Inquisition asking is more of a technicality...
Sm chapters are proud of their independance and if they percieve a threat to that then they start to get defensive.
If an Inq. asks instead of ordering the SM chapter feels unthreatened and will probably help.

Of course all chapters like working with the inquisition

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:The Inquisition asking is more of a technicality...
Sm chapters are proud of their independance and if they percieve a threat to that then they start to get defensive.
If an Inq. asks instead of ordering the SM chapter feels unthreatened and will probably help.

Of course all chapters like working with the inquisition

They might not like it but it is their duty. The Inquisition are servants of the Emperor and deserve all the assistance they need from whomever they need it from.
Marines above all do their duty.

Most chapters will help the inquisition upon request. The ones that don't are the exception, not the rule.

After all, it's better to be friends with an inquisitor than enemies.