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ObiFett wrote:

sourclams wrote:
It's not even overpowered. If you take Dreadknights, you're giving up Dreadnoughts, which are one of the most effective selections in the codex.

Heh, you don't play Tau...

So your basing it on what you want and not the rules? Not really a vaild point, then is it?

Noir wrote:

ObiFett wrote:

sourclams wrote:
It's not even overpowered. If you take Dreadknights, you're giving up Dreadnoughts, which are one of the most effective selections in the codex.

Heh, you don't play Tau...

So your basing it on what you want and not the rules? Not really a vaild point, then is it?

It was a throwaway joke and, even though I knew it would make my interpretation seem biased, I figured full disclosure and all is better than acting like you are neutral when you aren't. And anyone who says they are truly neutral in a rules discussion are most likely lying.

Does that mean I am basing my interpretation on what I want in the rules? Not at all, and its offensive you would suggest I am. I am not basing it on what I want in the rules. I am basing it on my interpretation of what the scout rules say and what the teleporter shunt rules say.

Shunting =/= normal move. Therefore, scout shunting =/= legal.

The main problem seems to stem from: what constitutes a "normal move"? and what would constitute a "non-normal move"? If we could get a clear answer on that, then this rule discussion would be solved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Shunting is not the normal mode of movement for the unit, but it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game. It is therefore a normal move for them.

"Instead of moving" means it is not moving, but rather a special action.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

Special action that is instead of moving =/= a move outlined in the rulebook under the movement section

nosferatu1001 wrote:You've made your mind up, and despite being shown the rules you dont seem to want to change it.

Right back at ya.

ObiFett wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

Special action that is instead of moving =/= a move outlined in the rulebook under the movement section

And the shunt is detailed as a move in Codex: Grey Knights. Thus, it is normal, and allowed during scout moves.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ObiFett wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

Special action that is instead of moving =/= a move outlined in the rulebook under the movement section

And the shunt is detailed as a move in Codex: Grey Knights. Thus, it is normal, and allowed during scout moves.

ObiFett wrote:
"Instead of moving" means it is not a normal move, but rather a special action/move.

I think you are clutching at straws ObiFett. The rules precedent has been set by numerous other rulings centerd around just this type of situation. You don't like it? Fine. I can't say I like it completely either, but that seems to be the way it is.

Precedent, eh. I can live with that then.

Where is the precedent? What other things that say "instead of moving" are allowed as a scout move?

I think others have clearly and repeatedly shown the previous precedent. Suggest you go back a re-read what they said.

Out.

Again, if GW rules had the tightness of a technical manual, I think you'd be on to something.

Everything else "special" that can normally be done in the movement phase, can be done during a Scout move.

Beast wrote:I think others have clearly and repeatedly shown the previous precedent. Suggest you go back a re-read what they said.

Out.

Turbo-boosting does not say "instead of moving" in the rulebook.

Still haven't seen a precedent...

So your argument basically comes down to 'gk teleporters are fundamentally different from turbo boosting, SMF, and smoke launchers because of the inclusion 'instead'.

Is that it in a nutshell?

Yes. Because it is not moving. It is more akin to deepstriking or the necron teleporting rule. Even more so, the clause "instead of moving" makes it seem like shunting is not even considered moving by the codex itself, but rather a power or special ability that repositions the unit and therefore takes the place of moving. Taking the place of moving removes it from the realm of "normal movement" and right dab smack in the middle of special or non-normal.

Can you cite me some special or non-normal movement that is not allowed to occur during scout moves?

obitfett - you are 100% wrong on the "it isnt a move" thing

Page 28: "the unit immediately makes a move"

Your point is refuted

/thread

sourclams wrote:Can you cite me some special or non-normal movement that is not allowed to occur during scout moves?

Nope, but lack of evidence is not proof of a truth/rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:obitfett - you are 100% wrong on the "it isnt a move" thing

Page 28: "the unit immediately makes a move"

Your point is refuted

/thread

Good point. Then it is a move. The first half of my last post is wrong and you are right.

But is it a normal move? The clause "instead of moving" outlines that its not normal but something done instead of moving normally.

And, again - see turboboosting. Turboboosting is done instead of moving normally, yet can be done in the Scout phase.

Actually, turboboosting is fundamentally different to shunting. Turboboosting can be done in each and every movement phase, barring locked in combet, being in terrain, etc. Shunt can only be done opnce in a game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again - see turboboosting. Turboboosting is done instead of moving normally, yet can be done in the Scout phase.

Does it say that in the rulebook? Does it say turboboosting is done "instead of moving"?

If so, then I would agree with you.

You keep flipflopping between moving and moving normally. Pick one or the other. And remember - you are still moving, so the "instead of moving" phrase is clearly incorrect.

Don - it isnt fundamentally different. TB and Shunt are both moves you can choose to do instead of moving normally. The fact one is use limited doesnt make it *fundamentally* different, just use limited.

Same as a bloodstrike missile isnt a fundamentally different weapon to an exorcist missile - it still fulfils 100% of the usual shooting rules, just can only be used that once.

don_mondo wrote:Actually, turboboosting is fundamentally different to shunting. Turboboosting can be done in each and every movement phase, barring locked in combet, being in terrain, etc. Shunt can only be done opnce in a game.

Also note that a once per game ability (Smoke Launchers) are specifically FAQed to be allowed to be used during a scout move.

The main point I think Obi is trying to make is:

Scout moves are made during normal movement.

Shunt moves are made instead of normal movement.

However turboboosting is not the usual movement mode, yet is "normal" for a bike and is thus allowed (As the FAQ showed)

"Shunt" is not the usual move, but it IS a "normal" move for the shunting model, and is thus allowed.

Being "once per game" is utterly irrelevant.

The point being is that the term,

"instead of moving.."

is the stickler. It removes the shunt from whatever the game deems as moving. It is shunting, not moving.

As you point out, turbo-boosting is not usual moving, but is movement for a bike. That is fine and dandy when it is applied to making Scout moves. However as shunting is not moving per RAW, the Scout moves makes no mention of shunting, and shunting has yet to be FAQ'd like other items (smoke launchers), then you have to fall back that it is not allowed during Scout moves.

I think it will come out 50/50 either for or against allowing it. But as it stands right now, because shunting is not moving and because it has not been FAQ'd like other non-moving actions to be allowed, it is currently not allowed during Scout Moves.

Obi is popping smoke under your definition in any way shape or form a normal move? If not why on earth is it allowed if the shunt isn't? If it is why isn't the shunt a normal move?

Why is turbo-boosting not the usual movement mode? What if all I did was turbo-boost my bikes every turn. It would be the usual movement mode to me.

The question is, what does "normal" movement mean? Normal is another word for uniform or usual. The only thing that is normal between codices is the BRB. Therefore, "normal", I think, is defined as being outlined in the BRB. Anything that is listed in there under movement for the unit type would be normal.

So turbo-boosting is normal for bikers.

Teleport shunting is not normal as it is a special movement that is done "instead of move[ment]" as outlined in the BRB. Not normal =/= not legal for scouting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:Obi is popping smoke under your definition in any way shape or form a normal move? If not why on earth is it allowed if the shunt isn't? If it is why isn't the shunt a normal move?

Popping smoke had to be faq'd. I imagine this will have to be as well.

FlingitNow wrote:Obi is popping smoke under your definition in any way shape or form a normal move? If not why on earth is it allowed if the shunt isn't? If it is why isn't the shunt a normal move?

Because it was FAQ'd to allow you to pop smoke despite it not being labeled as moving. Do you have a FAQ that allows you to perform a shunt during the Scout move despite it being labeled as "instead of moving"? Until you do, RAW you can't.

Because it was FAQ'd to allow you to pop smoke despite it not being labeled as moving.

Popping smoke had to be faq'd. I imagine this will have to be as well.

I think you should both look at your own language there. Notice how it was FaQ'd not erratta'd, thus the rules always were that this was allowed and it was just clarified that something does not have to be specified as a normal move to be elligible for a scout move it just has to be something you can do when moving...

Effectively you're saying that you want GK dreads to be FAQ'd to be able to pop smoke if they scout too and this is where your argument falls to peices. They clarified that anything you can do normally when moving you can do when making a scout move unless it is specified otherwise.

FlingitNow wrote:

I think you should both look at your own language there. Notice how it was FaQ'd not erratta'd, thus the rules always were that this was allowed and it was just clarified that something does not have to be specified as a normal move to be elligible for a scout move it just has to be something you can do when moving...

Effectively you're saying that you want GK dreads to be FAQ'd to be able to pop smoke if they scout too and this is where your argument falls to peices. They clarified that anything you can do normally when moving you can do when making a scout move unless it is specified otherwise.

2 problems with that

1) You are inferring that a ruling on one codex by FAQ about a completely different piece of wargear and function applies to another codex. That's not a precedent we want to set.
2) Look at your bolded statement. I just went and read the FAQ again. That was said nowhere and you are implying your own meaning to one question about one piece of wargear. Assumptions like that can create all types of problem when discussing RAW.

Also, Popping smoke does not say "instead of moving". That alone is one vital difference that makes the FAQ not applicable in this case.

So your desperately clinging to instead of moving despite being proved it was indeed movement and that the unit can normally do it once per game.

You know how it will be FaQ'd and they are hardly the first army able to get a turn 1 assault off (infact nearly every 5th ed codex can heck SMs can with their entire army should they wish).

Accept that the Tau aren't competitive move on and stop trying to cheat your way out of rules...

nosferatu1001 wrote:You keep flipflopping between moving and moving normally. Pick one or the other. And remember - you are still moving, so the "instead of moving" phrase is clearly incorrect.

Don - it isnt fundamentally different. TB and Shunt are both moves you can choose to do instead of moving normally. The fact one is use limited doesnt make it *fundamentally* different, just use limited.

To me, that's a 'fundamental difference'........................ Being able to do it every turn makes it normal, only being able to do it once makes it not normal.

This all seems pretty simple to me if you break it down. A specific rule or statement from the codex overrides the brb. Scout moves from the brb states that you may make a normal move which allows a unit with scout to make a normal move. Under teleporters in the grey knights codex it states that instead of moving you may make a shunt move. So brb scout rules allows the unit to make a normal move in the scout phase, the codex allows you to instead of making that normal move to shunt your 30 inches. So obi you are correct in your statement that the codex states that instead of moving you may shunt well scout gives them the opportunity to move and therefore forgoe the move and shunt instead.