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Dashofpepper wrote:
1. Roll leadership on the Justicar. He fails and is removed from play.

If the unit is still a psyker....if they still have the ability to cast psychic powers....

Doesn't matter, as the unit has already tested for it.

CoM doesn't happen in steps. Every test technically happens simultaneously. If the unit tests and passes/fails, there's nothing in the rules that say they have to test again. Maybe with the old CoM you might be able to go step by step for each model (assuming the Justicar passes, as per the old CoM wording), but not now. You test once per psyker. The unit is a psyker. The unit tests once.

It doesn't matter if it failed and there still existed a psyker, as BoP states that the Justicar is the one who is affected by attacks.

We can continue to ask if CoM is an attack, but you won't find an answer really. The only context "attack" even has in the game is the Attacks characteristic, which would never target Psykers anyway.

At this point, my three options have dropped down to two:

A) If the CoM is an attack against psykers, then it is resolved against the Justicar. As the other members of the unit can not have the attack resolved against them until after the Justicar is removed, and all of the tests are triggered simultaneously, no other members are in danger of being removed. If the test is passed, nothing happens, and if the test is failed, the Justicar is removed.

B) If the CoM is not an attack against psykers, then it is resolved against the unit, as the unit itself is a single psyker. If the test is passed, the unit is not affected. If the test is failed, the entire unit is removed, as CoM removes any psykers who fail.

Again, since nobody can truly define what an "attack" is in this game, we have to figure out what happens on our own without anything official. Does BoP's statement about targeting the Justicar have zero effect? Or does it react to anything that would affect psykers, including CoM?

The relevant part:

Every psyker within 3d6" of the bearer must pass a leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
1. Roll leadership on the Justicar. He fails and is removed from play.

If the unit is still a psyker....if they still have the ability to cast psychic powers....

Doesn't matter, as the unit has already tested for it.

CoM doesn't happen in steps. Every test technically happens simultaneously. If the unit tests and passes/fails, there's nothing in the rules that say they have to test again. Maybe with the old CoM you might be able to go step by step for each model (assuming the Justicar passes, as per the old CoM wording), but not now. You test once per psyker. The unit is a psyker. The unit tests once.

It doesn't matter if it failed and there still existed a psyker, as BoP states that the Justicar is the one who is affected by attacks.

We can continue to ask if CoM is an attack, but you won't find an answer really. The only context "attack" even has in the game is the Attacks characteristic, which would never target Psykers anyway.

At this point, my three options have dropped down to two:

A) If the CoM is an attack against psykers, then it is resolved against the Justicar. As the other members of the unit can not have the attack resolved against them until after the Justicar is removed, and all of the tests are triggered simultaneously, no other members are in danger of being removed. If the test is passed, nothing happens, and if the test is failed, the Justicar is removed.

B) If the CoM is not an attack against psykers, then it is resolved against the unit, as the unit itself is a single psyker. If the test is passed, the unit is not affected. If the test is failed, the entire unit is removed, as CoM removes any psykers who fail.

Again, since nobody can truly define what an "attack" is in this game, we have to figure out what happens on our own without anything official. Does BoP's statement about targeting the Justicar have zero effect? Or does it react to anything that would affect psykers, including CoM?

1. We'll grant that it is an attack. For the justicar to be used it must be an attack directed at the unit, which it is not.

2. If you use the Justicar for leadership and fail, he is removed. The remaining models in the unit still constitute a psyker.

That's the problem. They must have either passed leadership or been removed from the board.

Dok wrote:Can you post the exact wording of CoM? I don't have it in front of me

It can be used once per game in the shooting phase instead of firing.

"Every psyker within 3d6" of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed from play..."

Here's something that hasn't been taken into account either. Each model in the squad is not a psyker. They do not have the psyker special rule. The botherhood of psykers rule makes the unit count as a psyker.
So I think that at least edges out the "each model would have to test" theory.

Dok wrote:Here's something that hasn't been taken into account either. Each model in the squad is not a psyker. They do not have the psyker special rule. The botherhood of psykers rule makes the unit count as a psyker.
So I think that at least edges out the "each model would have to test" theory.

This is a good point.

However if we are to take that the Justicar or whoever is tested for all the postive psychic powers for the unit, then when he is faced with a negative effect for the unit, it makes sense that the unit suffers for those as well.

So CoM pops, Justicar takes test as the representative of the BoP unit and fails, the entire unit goes poof with him.

Brotherhood of Psykers
Units of Grey Knights are psykers and can use their mental might to enhance their abilties or unlesh psychic attacks.

A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, with the following clarficiations:

- A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an indepenent character for Psychic tests.

- If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.

So, the important bits in relation with to the Crucible of Malediction are:
- The unit counts as a single psyker, so only 1 test is needed for a unit.
- Any attack that specifically targets psykers is only resolved on the Justicar. As 'attack' and 'target' aren't specific rules within the 40k sets, we use the English definitions. The Crucible of Malediction is an attack that targets Psykers, just Psykers and nothing else but Psykers, so this part of the Brotherhood rule comes into play.
- When the attack is resolved it only removes the Justicar, just like only the Justicar would only get a wound when he suffers the Perils of the Warp.

Dashofpepper wrote:The relevant part:

Every psyker within 3d6" of the bearer must pass a leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

1. We'll grant that it is an attack. For the justicar to be used it must be an attack directed at the unit, which it is not.

2. If you use the Justicar for leadership and fail, he is removed. The remaining models in the unit still constitute a psyker.

That's the problem. They must have either passed leadership or been removed from the board.

It doesn't say the attack needs to be directed at the unit. Only that it affect psykers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just my personal opinion, it seems as if the brotherhood of psykers rules were written to specifically address this situation. But take that with a grain of salt as it doesn't prove anything in the conversation either way.

Dashofpepper wrote:1. We'll grant that it is an attack. For the justicar to be used it must be an attack directed at the unit, which it is not.

2. If you use the Justicar for leadership and fail, he is removed. The remaining models in the unit still constitute a psyker.

That's the problem. They must have either passed leadership or been removed from the board.

Not sure if those are responses to my A and B, or two comments that are supposed to be used together. I'm going to assume it's the latter.

It doesn't matter if after the test the unit is still a psyker. At the time of the test, they were not a valid target for CoM, as BoP makes the Justicar the only model affected. Once the Justicar is removed, BoP makes a different model affected, but CoM has already resolved.

(WARNING: I've never been great at this, but I think it makes sense)

---Trigger CoM
------Roll 3d6"
---------Measure to enemy units
------------GK unit in range
------Psyker must test
---------BoP triggers, making Justicar the model that CoM is resolved against
------------Justicar tests
---------------Justicar fails
------------------Justicar is removed from play*
------CoM complete

*At this point, if anything were to affect psykers, a random model would be the one who it is resolved against. However, in the case of CoM, we've already checked to see which psykers are affected. Nothing tells us to check again. It doesn't matter that the unit is still there (and a psyker), as the unit wasn't the target (because of BoP, the Justicar was). CoM says "every psyker within 3D6" must pass a Leadership test or be removed". They covered that, because the one who was actually affected by CoM has tested.

Also, this:

For the justicar to be used it must be an attack directed at the unit, which it is not.

Not true at all. According to BoP, it must be an attack that specifically targets psykers, which it most certainly is. It doesn't have to be directed at the unit, but target psykers.

Ah...that was why I was raising the question about "attack."

Why are you presuming that GK rule overrides DE rule?

My point is that they conflict.

Every psyker must pass leadership or be removed from the board. Using the justicar to take a leadership check (presuming that this is an attack) doesn't satisfy the conditions of the Crucible of Malediction. When all is said and done, there may NOT be a grey knight unit within 3d6 of the haemonculi with the crucible that has not passed a leadership check.

A justicar-less grey knight unit is still a psyker, and it has not passed a leadership check. One of three states must happen:

1. They are no longer psykers.
2. They keep rolling.
3. The unit is removed when the Justicar fails.

Regardless of which is chosen, you cannot leave a GK unit within 3d6 of a crucible of malediction if it has not successfully passed a leadership check.

Dashofpepper wrote:Why are you presuming that GK rule overrides DE rule?

I'm not saying that at all, and my point doesn't suggest that.

My point is that they conflict.

Agreed, and the lack of definition of "attack" makes it even worse, which I'm sure everyone agrees with now.

Every psyker must pass leadership or be removed from the board. Using the justicar to take a leadership check (presuming that this is an attack) doesn't satisfy the conditions of the Crucible of Malediction. When all is said and done, there may NOT be a grey knight unit within 3d6 of the haemonculi with the crucible that has not passed a leadership check.

This is where the problem is. NOTHING says this. You can claim that it is suggested by the wording of CoM, but it is not. CoM doesn't say anything about what the battlefield should look like after its effects have occured. It says that "every psyker within 3D6" must pass a Leadership test or be removed from play." First, you determine which psykers are within 3D6". Then, you test for the psykers, and if they fail they are removed from play. At the time the test occurs, you've already determined who is affected. Now, you either decide if it is an "attack" (meaning the Justicar takes the test) or not (meaning the unit takes the test as one). It doesn't matter one bit if a psyker exists after the resolution of CoM that didn't get tested. What matters is that all psykers that were in range at the time that CoM activated tested or were removed from play.

EDIT: I'm actually on the fence between the entire unit being removed or just the Justicar, but as you're presenting the case for the unit, I figured I'd give the other side as best as I can.

somerandomdude wrote: It doesn't matter one bit if a psyker exists after the resolution of CoM that didn't get tested.

Yes it does. There are only two states for psykers in range. Passed leadership, or not on the table. Removing a justicar and leaving the unit means that there is a psyker who doesn't meet the conditions of the CoM.

I still don't think they conflict at all.
-CoM tells you what to do if there are psykers in range. They test LD, are removed, etc.
-BoP tells you what to do if the unit is affected by an attack that affects psykers. The Justicar takes the test, suffers any ill effects if failed, etc.

That's as straight forward as it appears to me.

I really don't understand what is all the controversy here.

The unit is 1 psyker. If it fails its psychic test (based on the justicar or 1 regular guy if the justicar is dead), then Brotherhood of Psykers tells you EXACTLY what to do - remove the justicar or 1 random model. No, you don't remove the entire squad nor do you take take a test for each and every model in the unit....unless you can tell me where in their rules will you find Psyker special rule for the unit (no, you will only find Brotherhood of Psykers).

You are just making up houserules otherwise. Like dropping a large blast on a rhino and saying all the marines inside the rhino are affected as well because "they are underneath the template." I don't think so.

Dashofpepper wrote:Yes it does. There are only two states for psykers in range when CoM resolves. Passed leadership, or not on the table. Removing a justicar and leaving the unit means that there is a psyker who doesn't meet the conditions of the CoM.

Fixed for you.

The Justicar is removed as CoM resolves. The GK unit sans Justicar is not a different target for CoM, it is the same one, the one that you already resolved the effects against.

I don't think there is any question that CoM is resolved against the Justicar or other appointed representative, but the Justicar is the representative of the BoP do they share his fate as well.

As I mentioned, the Justicar is representative of the positive effects that spread throughout the squad. For example, NFW would be tested using the Justicar and via BoP the squad would have activated their NFW. So it not only seems logical, but also fair that the same be representative for the negative effects as well.

It really does come down to the basic idea of general < specific. In this case we have more specific < specific.

The crucible makes each psycher take a test, the BoP then goes into more detail about HOW the test is taken and resolved for the Grey Knights. If the test is failed, then the BoP rule is more specific in its replacement effect. Both rules are applied and satisfied in this manner, with the one GK model being removed for a failed test.



Sliggoth

Just wanted to add, that if you look at page 8, under characteristics tests, it tells you what a Ld test does. It is clearly defined as a test, not an attack. It is also said to be the only characteristic test to be done on 2D6, so its not an attack, its a test. RAW, of course.

I asked the same question as DoP but with the WH's "Hammer of the Witches" versus GK's "Brotherhood of Psykers". And still have not received an answer.

Not to hijack your thread Dash, but possibly resolving one will help with the other.

For those without a WH codex handy, "Hammer of the Witches":

"Hammer of the Witches is a psychic power that is used in the Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. It does not require line of sight to use and may be used if the Inquisitor is engaged in an assault. Roll a D6; this number of enemy psykers must pass a Leadership test or suffer a Perils of the Warp attack as the divine purity of the Emperor consumes them, starting with the psyker nearest the Inquisitor, and working outwards from him. If you roll a number greater than the number of enemy psykers on the table, each psyker is attacked once and the excess attacks are lost."

So, unlike CoM, HotW is most definitely an attack. But how exactly is it resolved with a GK unit with "Brotherhood of Psykers"?

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I asked the same question as DoP but with the WH's "Hammer of the Witches" versus GK's "Brotherhood of Psykers". And still have not received an answer.

Not to hijack your thread Dash, but possibly resolving one will help with the other.

For those without a WH codex handy, "Hammer of the Witches":

"Hammer of the Witches is a psychic power that is used in the Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. It does not require line of sight to use and may be used if the Inquisitor is engaged in an assault. Roll a D6; this number of enemy psykers must pass a Leadership test or suffer a Perils of the Warp attack as the divine purity of the Emperor consumes them, starting with the psyker nearest the Inquisitor, and working outwards from him. If you roll a number greater than the number of enemy psykers on the table, each psyker is attacked once and the excess attacks are lost."

So, unlike CoM, HotW is most definitely an attack. But how exactly is it resolved with a GK unit with "Brotherhood of Psykers"?

Easy, roll D6, find the D6 nearest squads, they each roll leadership and take Perils as necessary.

Edit: And take the squad leader/1 random guy loss to Perils for each squad that fails.

Shivan Reaper wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I asked the same question as DoP but with the WH's "Hammer of the Witches" versus GK's "Brotherhood of Psykers". And still have not received an answer.

Not to hijack your thread Dash, but possibly resolving one will help with the other.

For those without a WH codex handy, "Hammer of the Witches":

"Hammer of the Witches is a psychic power that is used in the Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. It does not require line of sight to use and may be used if the Inquisitor is engaged in an assault. Roll a D6; this number of enemy psykers must pass a Leadership test or suffer a Perils of the Warp attack as the divine purity of the Emperor consumes them, starting with the psyker nearest the Inquisitor, and working outwards from him. If you roll a number greater than the number of enemy psykers on the table, each psyker is attacked once and the excess attacks are lost."

So, unlike CoM, HotW is most definitely an attack. But how exactly is it resolved with a GK unit with "Brotherhood of Psykers"?

Easy, roll D6, find the D6 nearest squads, they each roll leadership and take Perils as necessary.

Edit: And take the squad leader/1 random guy loss to Perils for each squad that fails.

Funny, that's not how I interpreted it. I could see the same squad having to take the D6 tests being that they are the closest, then next closest and so on. Especially if they succumb to Perils and are removed.

Edit: To better explain, measure to a model in the squad, are they a psyker? Yes, no, maybe? I'm not sure. But we agree the Justicar/ect. would take the Leadership first. But once he does, say he fails and is removed, who's the next closest psyker? By my reasoning the same squad still as they are different in that the Justicar/ect. is gone but they are still a psyker. So they would take the next test as well on whoever is left. I'm less certain what would happen is they passed, would it move onto the next psyker or still stick with that unit as HotW deals with individual psykers, not a squad that is counted as one for most purposes. To paraphrase what Dash asked, after losing the Justicar/ect. can they still cast psychic powers? If yes, then they are still a psyker and would be affected by both HotW and CoM from my reasoning.

People:

With the exception of the HQ's, no where is it listed in each Grey Knight unit's special rules that they have the Psyker special rule. If you are inferring that they are psykers based on their Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, then you need to follow EVERYTHING in the BoP special rule, including how Perils affects the unit....no more, no less.

You cannot just follow parts of the special rule and ignore the rest. In other words, BoP tells you they are psykers. However, you cannot just stop there and say that that fulfills the requirements of CoM. You have to follow the rest of the rules in BoP.

As pointed out by Sliggoth, CoM is more general and BoP is more specific. CoM needs to follow the rules of BoP as well as its restrictions. Otherwise, there are no grey knight psykers, only a brotherhood.

To further complicate things, or perhaps make more clear, how many Victory points would one with Excruciators get from a unit with "Brotherhood of Psykers" and at what point? For each model? For just the Justicar/ect.? For wiping the whole squad?

"I suppose the same question would apply to any units with Brotherhood of Pskers. Would each model count or because each unit is treated as a single Psyker, one would have to kill the whole unit to get the points? The second bullet point under Brotherhood of Psykers would seem to indicate that each model would count but I am unsure.

'If the bearer of Excruciators is alive at the end of the battle, each enemy psyker killed or otherwise removed from the table is worth an additional D6 X 10 Victory Points.'"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@jy2: Under "Brotherhood of Psykers,":

"Units of Grey Knights are psykers..."

Seems pretty clear to me that they are indeed psykers.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
Funny, that's not how I interpreted it. I could see the same squad having to take the D6 tests being that they are the closest, then next closest and so on. Especially if they succumb to Perils and are removed.

Edit: To better explain, measure to a model in the squad, are they a psyker? Yes, no, maybe? I'm not sure. But we agree the Justicar/ect. would take the Leadership first. But once he does, say he fails and is removed, who's the next closest psyker? By my reasoning the same squad still as they are different in that the Justicar/ect. is gone but they are still a psyker. So they would take the next test as well on whoever is left. I'm less certain what would happen is they passed, would it move onto the next psyker or still stick with that unit as HotW deals with individual psykers, not a squad that is counted as one for most purposes. To paraphrase what Dash asked, after losing the Justicar/ect. can they still cast psychic powers? If yes, then they are still a psyker and would be affected by both HotW and CoM from my reasoning.

Except how you are trying to argue it is not how the majority of other abilities, excepting initiative in CC, work. Normally, you would pick targets, in this case, D6 nearest psykers at time of casting, measure range, which doesn't apply to the power, then they resolve the effects.

By your reasoning about the timing, my melta/demo Vets can shoot their three meltas, and after seeing the results, decide whether to use the demo charge or not.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
@jy2: Under "Brotherhood of Psykers,":

"Units of Grey Knights are psykers..."

Seems pretty clear to me that they are indeed psykers.

Yes they are....but that is because BoP tells you they are. No where in the unit entry do they have the Psyker special rule (except for the HQ's).

If you're playing them as psykers because BoP tells you so, then you need to follow all the rules of BoP, not just the part about them being psykers according to BoP.

jy2 wrote:People:

With the exception of the HQ's, no where is it listed in each Grey Knight unit's special rules that they have the Psyker special rule. If you are inferring that they are psykers based on their Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, then you need to follow EVERYTHING in the BoP special rule, including how Perils affects the unit....no more, no less.

You cannot just follow parts of the special rule and ignore the rest. In other words, BoP tells you they are psykers. However, you cannot just stop there and say that that fulfills the requirements of CoM. You have to follow the rest of the rules in BoP.

As pointed out by Sliggoth, CoM is more general and BoP is more specific. CoM needs to follow the rules of BoP as well as its restrictions. Otherwise, there are no grey knight psykers, only a brotherhood.

Actually yeah, they are psykers. It is listed under the Brotherhood of Psykers that Units of Grey Knights are Psykers, and that they count as a single Psyker that can cast one psychic power per turn. Now, I don't know about you, but I have never seen in ANY codex a unit that could cast a Psychic power that wasn't a Psyker.

And CoM is not General, it is quite specific actually, It is specific about who is effected (all psykers within 3D6"), What they must do (take a Leadership Test), and what happens to them (removed from play, not wounded, not killed, just removed from play, as they go stark mad.)

Seems pretty specific to me.

Galador wrote:

jy2 wrote:People:

With the exception of the HQ's, no where is it listed in each Grey Knight unit's special rules that they have the Psyker special rule. If you are inferring that they are psykers based on their Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, then you need to follow EVERYTHING in the BoP special rule, including how Perils affects the unit....no more, no less.

You cannot just follow parts of the special rule and ignore the rest. In other words, BoP tells you they are psykers. However, you cannot just stop there and say that that fulfills the requirements of CoM. You have to follow the rest of the rules in BoP.

As pointed out by Sliggoth, CoM is more general and BoP is more specific. CoM needs to follow the rules of BoP as well as its restrictions. Otherwise, there are no grey knight psykers, only a brotherhood.

Actually yeah, they are psykers. It is listed under the Brotherhood of Psykers that Units of Grey Knights are Psykers, and that they count as a single Psyker that can cast one psychic power per turn. Now, I don't know about you, but I have never seen in ANY codex a unit that could cast a Psychic power that wasn't a Psyker.

And CoM is not General, it is quite specific actually, It is specific about who is effected (all psykers within 3D6"), What they must do (take a Leadership Test), and what happens to them (removed from play, not wounded, not killed, just removed from play, as they go stark mad.)

Seems pretty specific to me.

What he was implying, I believe, is that CoM applies to ALL psykers, while BoP only refers to GK psykers, a subset of psykers, therefore being more specific.

Galador wrote:
Actually yeah, they are psykers.

Yeah, and I agree with you. Now, tell me what rule tells you that they are psykers?

Galador wrote:
It is listed under the Brotherhood of Psykers that Units of Grey Knights are Psykers,

Right again. If you're going to follow one of the sub-rules of a special rule, then you need to follow all sub-rules of the special rule.

Take for example, Feel No Pain. My flamestorm incinerator wounds a plaguemarine. Since he can never take his 3+ armor saves against my AP3 template, then he cannot use his FNP and is dead, right? Wrong. I am just picking out a part of the FNP rule that is advantageous to me, when I need to follow all the rules for FNP.

Galador wrote:
and that they count as a single Psyker that can cast one psychic power per turn. Now, I don't know about you, but I have never seen in ANY codex a unit that could cast a Psychic power that wasn't a Psyker.

And the unit that you see with the Psychic power has the Psyker special rule in the unit's entry. Grey Knight units do not have the Psyker special rule in their entry. What they do have is the BoP special rule.

Galador wrote:
And CoM is not General, it is quite specific actually, It is specific about who is effected (all psykers within 3D6"), What they must do (take a Leadership Test), and what happens to them (removed from play, not wounded, not killed, just removed from play, as they go stark mad.)

Seems pretty specific to me.

Yes, it is specific, but because it refers to the BoP special rule, BoP is more specific than it. Take for example, Power of Pain says that the DE unit gets FNP after killing 1 unit. Then if I blast a unit of DE warriors with my Grey Knight incinerator, does that mean that they still get their FNP? After all, it's not an AP 1/2 weapon? No, because my incinerator causes ID for the warriors. You cannot pick and choose which part of FNP you want to follow. You have to follow all the rules and restrictions for FNP. In this case, FNP is more specific than Power of Pain. PoP has to work within the scopes of FNP (and also fearless and furious charge).

Same thing applies here. CoM has to work within the scopers of BoP.

jy2 wrote:

Galador wrote:
It is listed under the Brotherhood of Psykers that Units of Grey Knights are Psykers,

Right again. If you're going to follow one of the sub-rules of a special rule, then you need to follow all sub-rules of the special rule.

Take for example, Feel No Pain. My flamestorm incinerator wounds a plaguemarine. Since he can never take his 3+ armor saves against my AP3 template, then he cannot use his FNP and is dead, right? Wrong. I am just picking out a part of the FNP rule that is advantageous to me, when I need to follow all the rules for FNP.

Actually, in the FnP it states against wounds with an armour save can never be taken, not against a wound that the unit can never take one, hence why its there, but I see what your going with here, but you can't pick that out, cause it is different, it stays the wound itself, not the unit the wound is on.

jy2 wrote:

Galador wrote:
and that they count as a single Psyker that can cast one psychic power per turn. Now, I don't know about you, but I have never seen in ANY codex a unit that could cast a Psychic power that wasn't a Psyker.

And the unit that you see with the Psychic power has the Psyker special rule in the unit's entry. Grey Knight units do not have the Psyker special rule in their entry. What they do have is the BoP special rule.

Exactly, and BoP states exactly what it covers, which is Perils of the Warp or any attack specifically against a Psyker. CoM is not an attack, no matter what anyone says, it is a Characteristic test against Leadership, which is clearly defined on pg. 8, as I stated earlier in the thread.

jy2 wrote:

Galador wrote:
And CoM is not General, it is quite specific actually, It is specific about who is effected (all psykers within 3D6"), What they must do (take a Leadership Test), and what happens to them (removed from play, not wounded, not killed, just removed from play, as they go stark mad.)

Seems pretty specific to me.

Yes, it is specific, but because it refers to the BoP special rule, BoP is more specific than it. Take for example, Power of Pain says that the DE unit gets FNP after killing 1 unit. Then if I blast a unit of DE warriors with my Grey Knight incinerator, does that mean that they still get their FNP? After all, it's not an AP 1/2 weapon? No, because my incinerator causes ID for the warriors. You cannot pick and choose which part of FNP you want to follow. You have to follow all the rules and restrictions for FNP. In this case, FNP is more specific than Power of Pain. PoP has to work within the scopes of FNP (and also fearless and furious charge).

Same thing applies here. CoM has to work within the scope of BoP.

Exactly, it has to work withing the scope of it, and it does. You basically have 2 options: Take the test on the one model and count the unit as a single psyker which it says, at which point it isremoved from play, not attacked, not wounded, not Perils, just removed from play. It is affected by a characteristic test, not an attack. I still have yet to see where this is an attack, in order for it to follow that part of the BoP rule. Its not labeled as an attack in my codex, nor in yours, nor in the BRB, and it causes no wounds, so its not a shooting attack, and it isn't a Close combat attack. It is actually done instead of firing, which specifically tells you that it isn't a shooting attack. So, if you can show me somewhere that removal from play constitutes an attack in some official GW errata concerning the Dark Eldar, I will concede it is an attack, but until then, its a characteristic test, not an attack, which means it ignores the part of BoP about the Justicar/KotF taking the only test.

I will however agree that it is only one test for the whole unit, as they count as a singel psyker, but if they fail, the whole unit is removed since they count as a single psyker.

Edited because its late and I hit the wrong button when trying to preview at the beginning

Galador wrote:Just wanted to add, that if you look at page 8, under characteristics tests, it tells you what a Ld test does. It is clearly defined as a test, not an attack. It is also said to be the only characteristic test to be done on 2D6, so its not an attack, its a test. RAW, of course.

Actually, this should quite settle it.

The Justicar is only used for anti-psyker attacks against the unit. The Crucible causes a leadership test. It does not do it against the Grey Knight unit, so the Justicar isn't qualified to step in to answer for the whole unit. Nor is taking taking a leadership test being attacked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Yes it does. There are only two states for psykers in range when CoM resolves. Passed leadership, or not on the table. Removing a justicar and leaving the unit means that there is a psyker who doesn't meet the conditions of the CoM.

Fixed for you.

The Justicar is removed as CoM resolves. The GK unit sans Justicar is not a different target for CoM, it is the same one, the one that you already resolved the effects against.

If the effect was resolved correctly, then the psyker can no longer be on the table. In this case, a piece of the psyker is no longer on the table, but the psyker remains. Still not kosher. But then again, taking a characteristic test isn't being attacked, so it should be irrelevant...

Shivan Reaper wrote:
Except how you are trying to argue it is not how the majority of other abilities, excepting initiative in CC, work. Normally, you would pick targets, in this case, D6 nearest psykers at time of casting, measure range, which doesn't apply to the power, then they resolve the effects.

By your reasoning about the timing, my melta/demo Vets can shoot their three meltas, and after seeing the results, decide whether to use the demo charge or not.

Except HotW gives us no concept of how the timing works beyond what is in the text, emphasis mine:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote: "Hammer of the Witches is a psychic power that is used in the Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. It does not require line of sight to use and may be used if the Inquisitor is engaged in an assault. Roll a D6; this number of enemy psykers must pass a Leadership test or suffer a Perils of the Warp attack as the divine purity of the Emperor consumes them, starting with the psyker nearest the Inquisitor, and working outwards from him...."

So I would argue that it does work that you resolve one at a time starting with the first and finishing with it before you go check for the second. This is where I find that BoP has a problem, which model is the closest psyker for the purposes of HotW? Say it is the first model in a unit of GK with BoP. Fine I resolve it against the Justicar. Done. What's the next closest psyker? The second model closest in that same unit? I am unsure. If it is the second model in the same unit, once again HotW would be resolved against the Justicar if he's still alive or a random Gk if not per BoP.

The same argument can be applied to CoM as long as there is a psyker within the 3D6 that hasn't tested yet.

I think the fact that we are having this discussion without any clear answer on either side demonstrates the need for a FAQ IMO.