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Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

Your Rapid Fire range has never been 15". RF has always been 12" for every weapon with that rule since 3rd ed.

Also, saying "Because I play X race and I don't have as many model choices as you, you can't use multiple books that all use the same/similar models." People claiming this need to grow up and quit whining. Buy a small Space Marine army, buy a couple of codeces and make your own chapter that could include multiple sects that use rules from various books. My custom chapter is painted/detailed so that it can function as Black Templar OR Blood Angels, and of course any chapter can pretty much be substituted as Vanilla Marines. Do this in addition to your Tau or whatever other army. I also have Daemons AND Eldar. It's legit. Grow up and deal with it.

timetowaste85 wrote:Buy a small Space Marine army, buy a couple of codeces and make your own chapter that could include multiple sects that use rules from various books. My custom chapter is painted/detailed so that it can function as Black Templar OR Blood Angels, and of course any chapter can pretty much be substituted as Vanilla Marines.

Just strikes me as being a bit cheesy to make your own chapter (which not enough people do IMO) and then swap between a couple of codexes for different games. What's the style and background of the army, shouldn't they align consistently with one codex as their guide? Otherwise it comes off as tailoring the choice in codex to the opponent you would be facing. "I'm space wolves today to fight orks but next week will go vanilla for my fight against chaos". Smells of WAAC.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

Yeah no kidding. Eldar and Dark Eldar are pretty similar, right, you gonna let me use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? How about my Tau? They both have skimmers, that should be allowed too. And necrons, yeah, why not. In fact, why care about models at all right? Its not part of the hobby or anything, they are just markers for use with the rules. Maybe I should just start using little wooden mannequin dollies instead of actual models. That way I can play them as Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars/Dark Angels/Ultramarines/Eldar/Tau/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Orks/Fantasy Empire/Fantasy Ogres/Fantasy Skaven, etc. etc. etc.

The minis, their paint scheme, and their interaction with the rules are important aspects of the hobby. You aren't just playing a game, you're re-enacting battles that might occur in a fantasy setting that took years of thought (and plagiarism!) to create. Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't oprerate and fight the same way. There is a reason they look different, there is a reason they have different rules. Its more than just a difference in paint scheme, etc. You're doing the fluff a disservice every time you codex hop. I'm a bit more forgiving if its a custom chapter, I mean, really they can be whatever the hell you want, but I have a limit to how far I can suspend disbelief.

QFT

I would respect a painstankenly converted/well painted WYSIWYG army being used as a codex army, hell I support cusomization and custom chapters, creativity is one of the most important aspects of this hobby. However this is rarely the case and most of the time what happens after a release is a bunch of hideous looking SM's are put in front of you and used as whatever brand new army has just been released without any thought or creativity put into it. It happened at my FLGS with BA and now its going to happen with GK and it pisses me off to no end.

timetowaste85 wrote:I use my marines to hop around between different armies all the time, and you know why? Because I like to play different armies once in a while-I bought space marines, I can use them as any chapter I want. I play WYSIWYG and don't have proxies, at most one or two, and I shouldn't be told "You can't play Space Wolves because all of your marines are painted Black and Red." I think the complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play. It's a game for God's sake. Accept the fact that some of us play for fun and can use whatever codex we want as long as the pieces are uniformly appropriate and who gives a rat's @$$ about the color of the models. Make sure the weapons on the model are appropriate and you shouldn't have any trouble. Anyone who gives you a hard time isn't a worthwhile opponent. And yes, I've run tournaments and followed what I just said-there were no complaints from anybody.

See, some people find more than just the game to be fun. What you find fun does not fully match up with what I find fun. I find playing fluffy well thought out and suitably modeled armies fun. Your fun is ruining my fun. Likewise, by saying 'complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play' is to be more than a bit hypocritical. You are in effect complaining about others because you yourself don't accept how other people want to play.

If you like playing different armies once in a while, thats fine. If you're going to do it regularly, would it kill ya to buy new minis and model them appropriately like the rest of us? There's no reason not to do that anyway. Read the fluff, its not uncommon for multiple chapters to end up fighting side by side in the same warzone, why not play that way on the tabletop if you love jumping around so much?

Just strikes me as being a bit cheesy to make your own chapter (which not enough people do IMO) and then swap between a couple of codexes for different games. What's the style and background of the army, shouldn't they align consistently with one codex as their guide? Otherwise it comes off as tailoring the choice in codex to the opponent you would be facing. "I'm space wolves today to fight orks but next week will go vanilla for my fight against chaos". Smells of WAAC.

This is not WAAC if I made a chapter to justify being able to switch between 2 regular chapters so I don't get bored with it. I don't list tailor, neither my friends nor I tell which army we are playing so we just play whichever one we want since we all have 3+ armies. I justify it with the idea that I don't want to pay for 2 full different space marine armies so I play WYSIWYG but with a color scheme that could work for both chapters, because unless you missed it GW models are expensive, and I buy models that can work for either army as well as the special unique characters/models that are army specific. If there was list tailoring, I could understand this complaint. As there is no list-tailoring to face specific armies, I would like to dismiss your argument towards me (other players may take advantage of this and are in the wrong, but I do no such thing).

-edit-Wow, that was a lot of commas all at once. Oh well

chaos0xomega wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:I use my marines to hop around between different armies all the time, and you know why? Because I like to play different armies once in a while-I bought space marines, I can use them as any chapter I want. I play WYSIWYG and don't have proxies, at most one or two, and I shouldn't be told "You can't play Space Wolves because all of your marines are painted Black and Red." I think the complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play. It's a game for God's sake. Accept the fact that some of us play for fun and can use whatever codex we want as long as the pieces are uniformly appropriate and who gives a rat's @$$ about the color of the models. Make sure the weapons on the model are appropriate and you shouldn't have any trouble. Anyone who gives you a hard time isn't a worthwhile opponent. And yes, I've run tournaments and followed what I just said-there were no complaints from anybody.

See, some people find more than just the game to be fun. What you find fun does not fully match up with what I find fun. I find playing fluffy well thought out and suitably modeled armies fun. Your fun is ruining my fun. Likewise, by saying 'complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play' is to be more than a bit hypocritical. You are in effect complaining about others because you yourself don't accept how other people want to play.

?

And this is a completely ridiculous statement-you're telling me I have to limit how I play my army so that YOU have fun, which isn't fun for me because I get bored just playing one style. I offered an option so that you can make more opportunities for yourself so you don't feel limited. But I refuse to play a game against someone who whines and cries that my army doesn't perfectly match my paint scheme. If you want to sit on your high-holy-horse and say that I don't deserve to have fun unless I follow your rules, then take a moment to realize how foolish that sounds. If you want to complain that you don't have as many options as marine players, feel free-but don't tell us we have to conform to your play style. That's just beyond ignorant. And yes, I do get outraged by people telling other players that because said first player has a limited army, player two must ALSO play a limited army. It's pure foolishness and I don't find myself hypocritical at all. You're seeking to limit players and I seek to give more options. Who is offering something better to the larger community?

chaos0xomega wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:Because I play Tau. My codex is old, my rules don't work like they used to, my rapid fire range isn't 15" anymore because of a change in wording, my units are overcosted compared to yours and my transport moves the same speed as yours but costs 2.5 times as much.

And I can't just say "Oh well now they're space wolves" so why should you be able to?

Yeah no kidding. Eldar and Dark Eldar are pretty similar, right, you gonna let me use my Eldar as Dark Eldar? How about my Tau? They both have skimmers, that should be allowed too. And necrons, yeah, why not. In fact, why care about models at all right? Its not part of the hobby or anything, they are just markers for use with the rules. Maybe I should just start using little wooden mannequin dollies instead of actual models. That way I can play them as Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Black Templars/Dark Angels/Ultramarines/Eldar/Tau/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Orks/Fantasy Empire/Fantasy Ogres/Fantasy Skaven, etc. etc. etc.

The minis, their paint scheme, and their interaction with the rules are important aspects of the hobby. You aren't just playing a game, you're re-enacting battles that might occur in a fantasy setting that took years of thought (and plagiarism!) to create. Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't oprerate and fight the same way. There is a reason they look different, there is a reason they have different rules. Its more than just a difference in paint scheme, etc. You're doing the fluff a disservice every time you codex hop. I'm a bit more forgiving if its a custom chapter, I mean, really they can be whatever the hell you want, but I have a limit to how far I can suspend disbelief.

Wo about a 9 on the tension scale there Vern.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Just strikes me as being a bit cheesy to make your own chapter (which not enough people do IMO) and then swap between a couple of codexes for different games. What's the style and background of the army, shouldn't they align consistently with one codex as their guide? Otherwise it comes off as tailoring the choice in codex to the opponent you would be facing. "I'm space wolves today to fight orks but next week will go vanilla for my fight against chaos". Smells of WAAC.

This is not WAAC if I made a chapter to justify being able to switch between 2 regular chapters so I don't get bored with it. I don't list tailor, neither my friends nor I tell which army we are playing so we just play whichever one we want since we all have 3+ armies. I justify it with the idea that I don't want to pay for 2 full different space marine armies so I play WYSIWYG but with a color scheme that could work for both chapters, because unless you missed it GW models are expensive, and I buy models that can work for either army as well as the special unique characters/models that are army specific. If there was list tailoring, I could understand this complaint. As there is no list-tailoring to face specific armies, I would like to dismiss your argument towards me (other players may take advantage of this and are in the wrong, but I do no such thing).

-edit-Wow, that was a lot of commas all at once. Oh well

chaos0xomega wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:I use my marines to hop around between different armies all the time, and you know why? Because I like to play different armies once in a while-I bought space marines, I can use them as any chapter I want. I play WYSIWYG and don't have proxies, at most one or two, and I shouldn't be told "You can't play Space Wolves because all of your marines are painted Black and Red." I think the complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play. It's a game for God's sake. Accept the fact that some of us play for fun and can use whatever codex we want as long as the pieces are uniformly appropriate and who gives a rat's @$$ about the color of the models. Make sure the weapons on the model are appropriate and you shouldn't have any trouble. Anyone who gives you a hard time isn't a worthwhile opponent. And yes, I've run tournaments and followed what I just said-there were no complaints from anybody.

See, some people find more than just the game to be fun. What you find fun does not fully match up with what I find fun. I find playing fluffy well thought out and suitably modeled armies fun. Your fun is ruining my fun. Likewise, by saying 'complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play' is to be more than a bit hypocritical. You are in effect complaining about others because you yourself don't accept how other people want to play.

?

And this is a completely ridiculous statement-you're telling me I have to limit how I play my army so that YOU have fun, which isn't fun for me because I get bored just playing one style. I offered an option so that you can make more opportunities for yourself so you don't feel limited. But I refuse to play a game against someone who whines and cries that my army doesn't perfectly match my paint scheme. If you want to sit on your high-holy-horse and say that I don't deserve to have fun unless I follow your rules, then take a moment to realize how foolish that sounds. If you want to complain that you don't have as many options as marine players, feel free-but don't tell us we have to conform to your play style. That's just beyond ignorant. And yes, I do get outraged by people telling other players that because said first player has a limited army, player two must ALSO play a limited army. It's pure foolishness and I don't find myself hypocritical at all. You're seeking to limit players and I seek to give more options. Who is offering something better to the larger community?

I think you missed the point of my argument, I was not TELLING you how to play your army, nor was I telling you to conform to my rules. The point was to illustrate the fallacy in your logic, which you have more than further reinforced with this post. Furthermore, your 'solution' to the problem is selfish and near-sighted. Rather than trying to seek a compromise, you in effect demand that I conform to your own way of playing the game (isn't that of what you're accuisng me of? hmm...) I don't WANT to play space marines. By playing space marines and following suit with your pattern of behavior, all I am doing is helping further degrade the game into "Space Marine 40k".

All I did was offer an opinion. You are the one telling others how to play, and then assaulting them verbally for refusing to conform.

Frazzled wrote:
Wo about a 9 on the tension scale there Vern.

Errr... thank you? I'm not sure I understand what this means/refers to.

@ Chaos0xomega:
My problem with your argument stems from you saying "your fun is ruining my fun" and that I "don't accept how other people want to play." By all means, play how you want-but don't tell me I can't switch out armies while sharing matching models just because they don't conform to your standards. "Buy a Space Marine army and do what you want with it" was my way of saying 'here's your option to do the same thing as I do.' You can also do the same with Eldar, as far as I'm concerned-if you can make an Eldar theme fit within the new Dark Eldar codex or with the minis, such as a biker army, then go wild-who has the right to tell you not to mix and match Eldar if you can make it work (this is just another example, not an attack on your previous eldar->dark eldar->tau skimmer comment).

My fun is painting (which got me into the game) and playing games with my friends, not being told "you're ruining my fun by jumping around codeces." If players like I ruin your fun, then don't play space marine players. And your statement was not an "opinion" any more than mine was-it was an attack because I don't agree with you and your vision of the game: don't make me out to be the 'bad guy' here-I don't appreciate it.

And no, I do not find it at hypocritical that I am complaining about someone telling me how to play or what I'm allowed to play-I voiced my displeasure about people complaining about switching codeces-which I believe is fair and valid on my part since it is something my friends and I all do. I have the same right to enjoy my army as you do; what I don't need is somebody telling me that I can't enjoy my army because it offends them. Nor am I telling people how to play: I'm telling them not to tell me how to, and if they want to complain about my choices and options in the game, I offered a solution to their problems.

To conclude, and I hope neither you or anyone else has a problem with this statement, every player has the right to play THEIR army the way THEY want. No opponent should ever curtail other players style of play or interest in an army or models that offer a broad range of options. Everyone has the right to play the models they buy how they want, as long as it conforms to the general rules set by the game.

Looks like some folks are getting offended. Remember that the title of the thread is "What's Wrong...". Right from the title I encouraged folks to state their dislike for a practice, and that will inevitably lead to strong expressions of preferences and personal standards. Not everyone is going to agree, and some opinions about playing 40k will be mutually exclusive. That's ok.

If anyone finds such opions and expressions offensive, I encourage them to look elsewhere.

I play a basic 1000 pt army from time to time. Thing is though, you buy the stuff and don't be TFG about it. If they stick, I'll buy a couple of more units, play a few games, and keep them. If not, they hit the bricks.

I hate the eldar because of a tag teaming I took way back when with a couple of TFG's when I first was serious into playing an Ork Horde army. After the fact, found out that the Eldar were not as hot stuff as I was led onto, and from then on, had a serious case of the !@#$ when they show up. I make it a point to mob up on them and wipe the units out as bloody as possible. I wouldn't dare try to pull using an Ork as a Eldar, necron, Tau, etc. An Ork is an ork, a TAu is a Tau.

I hate seeing guys come to the table with thier obliged one painted model, and the unit with no arms/ name. Then to have the brass to say something toolish like, this guy is so and so, he's special...

Worst thing that people do when they codex flop is to try to baffle you with Bullgak, or dazzle you with demons. THEN they want to go on and on about how oh so special thier stupid pet tricks are. It reminds me of the smerk attitude of one of those tools on TV spouting off about thier favorite card monster, or something equally as lame.

Its a wargame, some have something others have another, you play the game you're army is dealt.

Don't mind a good game, hate a !@#$ attitude.

Hi all.
The reason GW release thier shiney new minatures with a marketing pamphlet , er I mean codex.
Is to 'inspire' thier core demoghraphic to buy new minatures.

So all those people NOT buying the new minatures after GW has totaly destabilised the 40k game system to give you 'AWSOMEKOOLNEWRULZ' .
Are not concidered to be part of GWs primary demoghraphic.(Impessionable children and collectors who think the rules are not that important.)

You pay your money and get the most out of you purchases you can.

Some prefer to painstakinly create a depth of background and character for thier army.

Others use thier minatures in as many ways as possible.

No right or wrong, just different.

(In the wider wargaming hobby , gamers can create a characterful army , AND use the same minatures with differnt rule sets!)

TTFN

Tomb King wrote:I have almost stopped playing with my CSM entirely because they are too easy to win with...

Do you typically play against 9 year olds? How you win, let alone easily and often, with Chaos Marines is beyond me. It's my experience with the new codex that they suck. Terribly.



King Ghidorah

I wish you would change your signature Ghidorah, I don't think I've ever actually read the text of your comments!

Ghidorah wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I have almost stopped playing with my CSM entirely because they are too easy to win with...

Do you typically play against 9 year olds? How you win, let alone easily and often, with Chaos Marines is beyond me. It's my experience with the new codex that they suck. Terribly.



King Ghidorah

I wouldn't say that they are one of the worst codexes out there but they are definetly not anywhere near the best. I hope the dex gets a makeover after Tau/Necrons/Sisters, because with every new release the chaos dex looks more and more ancient.

Not a fan, really...

My worst experience was when I was getting back into 40k (5th ed) after a long break (from 3rd ed). We were doing some homebrew kill-team type thing with about 5 people, mostly my brothers uni mates, with quick games and experience/wargear purchase for characters, etc.

In the first game, I found myself up against some white-primed eldar guardians. "OK" I say to myself, "I know eldar, 5+ saves, catapults, etc". Pick 'em off in close combat, hahah.

It was only when I got my first marine to assault that he rolled a 3+ save and I realised something wasn't right. "They're grey hunters" he says. What the hell? "Space Wolves" he tells my confounded self (I used to play IG and Salamanders back in 3rd Ed, never gave Space Wolves more than a cursory glace, silly non-codex chapters with their flashy thingamajigs and what have you). Ok, I think, At least it's a fair match, marine on marine... When he pulls out his attack dice I was thinking "thats too many". "Oh Space Wolves marines have pistols and close combat weapons" he says...

Was a bit of a wipeout. Ok, so I should have known more about the space wolves, but at the start I assumed that Grey Hunters were some kind of Aspect Warrior I'd forgotten about

I'm a bit more savvy these days, but WYSIWYG is worth it's weight in gold, especially if you're swapping Eldar for new shiny codex Space Wolves! Some things aren't so bad... I don't mind a plasma gun being a melta gun, as long as I know about it first!

On top of all that, I, like many, feel an alegiance to the armies I play- Why? Because of fluff, style, whatever. It really adds to the game If you're both passionate about your forces, rather than clinically swapping and proxying to the most recently updated, powerful force. To me, this is just as important as having paint on the model. It takes something away from the game (well, it's a bit of a downer anyway) when an army you have patiently collected for years and and have much love for is annihilated by someone proxying the lastest best mehrines or what-have-you. If the game was about who has the most optimal codex, we'd all collect the same army, which isn't the point of this game. (Anyway, as an aside, this year's adepticon top 16 shows that variety in army choice is still very much possible competitively, despite the codex creep)

On the other hand, I have no problem with people collecting and painting up the newly released armies... "Bandwagoning" as some people call it. Hell, I was tempted enough by the dark eldar. It's just the wanton proxying that can be so frustrating sometimes, especially if you've put the effort to make your own army WYSIWYG!

In the end I don't care what people are doing as long as everything is followable (WYSIWYG).

I don't like it because I want my local shops to get better and better. I firmly believe that the best players are people who have played LOTS of games with their current army and list. I think codex hopping greatly reduces the ability of a player to understand the nuances of their list because they are now essentially playing a different army. If its a one off game to quell boredom, whatever, but flavor of the month usually winds up tasting like poo poo in the end.

I am a huge fan of WYSIWYG. In any game (other than with very new players who are barely getting models) it's a must in my opinion for clarity. Minor proxying is acceptable to me (as long as they are clearly defined and there's no "Oh, some of those flamers are actually flamers, some are other special weapons" and things of the sort) but I prefer WYSIWYG.

On the note about codex hopping... I get bored easily. I eventually want to own every 40k army (as crazy as that sounds) and actively trade off magic cards, video games, etc. My motto is, if I get every single new thing when it comes out, eventually I'll have them all .

I'm the guy who had a lvl 80 of every character type on World of Warcraft (while raiding with my main) and who really enjoys variety. I don't think the desire to mix it up with something new is a bad thing, but I'll be caught in the Emperor's wrath before you see me plop down an unconverted Dark Eldar Archon and tell my opponent "It's a Grey Knight... deal with it."

I feel as though some people are being too harsh on unpainted models. I've had my Eldar for a while and I still need to get around to painting some of my tanks.

Everything is WYSIWYG, but I just enjoy painting infantry more then Tanks. So all of my Infantry are all painted up and whatnot, but I have several grey tanks floating about.

I do think that Marine codex flopping is rather annoying however. I have a codex, and I have models which correspond to it. Its sort of mind boggling that the regularly updated Space Marines decide that their book "isn't good enough" anymore and need to jump ship to Space Wolves or Blood Angels at the drop of a hat. And its not like the Space Marine Codex is particularly lacking in builds and units which can potentially be effective.

Players who decide that they are bored with their army, and want to use a different codex (especially because they precieve it stronger then their own) just strike me as annoying.

But then again, I'm fairly biased.
I generally dislike Marines period. I think that the premis that they are "super elite" soldiers is sort of lost when there are 5 seperate loyalist marine codexes (wtf??)- 6 if you count GK. When every other army in the game is shoe holed into a single codex.

I understand that Marines are the poster boys, but everybody playing t4 3+ armor save with a few additional (and usually rediculous) special rules is just lame.

Remember kids, friends don't let friends play MEQ

Cottonjaw wrote:Totally agree. The worst part about it is the flavor of the monthness. Have some damn pride. Paint your models and be proud of them for what they are. I understand it's just a game and it's just little plastic spacemen, but show a little loyalty to the side you picked.

I know, right!? I'm loyal to a fault to that shoe, and I won't play Monopoly if some one else tries to take it!

Seriously, it's a game. Whether I have say "Today, these space marines will be playing the role of Generic Space Marines instead of Salamanders" or buy two entire armies, does it really matter if we have a good game? The game itself should matter.

Cottonjaw wrote:
Play what you paint, and for the love of god paint.

No.

It depends on if the army is WYSIWYG. I have seen some beautiful armies that the players have taken their time and money to built the army right and not just calling them angry marines one week and furry marines the next.

I activily encourage people that are going with marines of any flavour to select a custom paint scheme so that they can freely switch between any of the codices. The only rule I enforce nearly always is WYSIWYG, so all they have to do to 'switch up' their Vanilla SM to Spacewolves is nothing, to BA, buy a couple models specifically with Infernius pistols, and leave them out if running normal assault marines, etc.

I have no understanding why this is an issue other than WYSIWYG, which is completely fair to enforce anytime. I think any of those marine players should only have to invest in one set of magnetized rhinos/razorbacks.

You can't always assume someone is codex hopping because they want to win at all costs. Personally i own the SM and SW codex and (even though i haven't played in years) i plan on playing using both codexes when i finish painting my toy soldiers. Some people, like me, choose to play SM or switch to SM's for the soul reason that they do get new shiny things all the time. The game CAN be about having fun, and for lots of us having fun means trying new things. As long as everything is WYSIWYG (no chainsword weilding. tactical marines) than i see absolutely no problems with it

On the other hand i do understand the frustration from some players because as a former Eldar player i had the options for Ulthwe, regular, Alaotic etc. etc. with the old codexes

I don't care about paint scheme.

I just care about wysiwyg.

If it's wysiwyg, then it's all good.

I woudn't do it because I am used to playing an armies that were not the top of the moment (2nd ed. orks and marines, 4th ed IG, 5th ed. Eldar - wow wrong places at wrong times, huh?), and I am used to everyone I game with using the amies that they have.

My Eldar have supposedly become obsolete but when I even play any more, I still use them because I think they are cool. I think the new codex > old codex thing is true, it is not just the whining or paranoia of bad players, and I also feel than this just makes the game difficult, but never impossible.

I wouldn't want to play against someone who just custom picks whatever the best rules of the moment to use at their convenience for the same kind of reason that I don't suddenly become a packers fan because they had a good year and beat the Bears. Fortunately I don't have to, but I would be annoyed by some armies having access to numerous variations and options, and game-breaking advantages depending on the latest book release while others do not have this ability. This is why I don't like playing against anything from forge-world books either. Maybe when the craftworlds get as many variant tanks and such in their own giant hardcover book series as the Imperium I would feel differently, but for now, if your Ultramarine is a Blood Angel, then my Wraithlord may as well be a Dreadknight. I wouldn't want to play that kind of game, we may as well save some money and everybody just use bottle caps and cigarette boxes fighting over a table of soda cans.

my boyz aren't picky.. field your vanilla or blood angels against me as gray wolves, a game is a game, still gonna be fun, space marines are still space marines and my orks just want a good fight so the mroe op and overwhelming the odds are against them the harder they have to fight which makes them happy

remember orks never lose cause if they die it don't count!

I'd have to say that my problem is not with people buying a new army for each new codex, nor is it with people who make their own chapter, and then choose to play them as various different chapters, as long as it continues to make sense. This means being close to WYSIWYG, and if you have counts as models, they need to make sense, they can't just be 'oh this guy with a bolter really has a melta gun.' Saying that a bike Marine is really a TWC is fine, as long as it's consistent. I'm even ok with big proxies like cardboard box Storm Ravens, beer can drop pods if they're just temporary things in place while the person tries to find out whether a new expensive model will work for him or not.

The problem I have is people who have had the same grey AOBR/standard Tac Marines for months and months with the wrong guns (this missile launcher is a melta gun! oh wait, now it's a bolter! now it's a chainsword!) and have gone from being Ultramarines to Space Wolves to Blood Angels and are now showing up as Grey Knights.

timetowaste85 wrote:I use my marines to hop around between different armies all the time, and you know why? Because I like to play different armies once in a while-I bought space marines, I can use them as any chapter I want. I play WYSIWYG and don't have proxies, at most one or two, and I shouldn't be told "You can't play Space Wolves because all of your marines are painted Black and Red." I think the complaints stem from people who find it easier to whine than to just accept how people want to play. It's a game for God's sake. Accept the fact that some of us play for fun and can use whatever codex we want as long as the pieces are uniformly appropriate and who gives a rat's @$$ about the color of the models. Make sure the weapons on the model are appropriate and you shouldn't have any trouble. Anyone who gives you a hard time isn't a worthwhile opponent. And yes, I've run tournaments and followed what I just said-there were no complaints from anybody.

This. I switch between the BA and SM books with my painted wysiwyg Smurf army from time to time. Some weeks I enjoy playing a fast vehicle gunline and some weeks I enjoy a more vanilla force. I am not going to lay out hundreds of dollars to repurchase tacticals, assault marines, rhinos and tons of other models I already own and have painted blue... just so I can paint them red.

In general, assuming the army is WYSIWYG, I have no problem with someone hopping between variants IF it's not done maliciously. If it's done to get the most effective counter to my army, that's a problem.

Then again, if I say I'm playing X and opponent fields Y, my only real option is to say, "Wait, I'll play Z instead!" which is ultimately doing the same thing!

Really this kind of "problem" can only exist among the variant SM chapters, as are the only armies that use the same figures with different books. Blood Angels use Space Marines figures for everything but their unique BA/SW only things. It's the power armor. If I played SM and just wanted an easier game, sure I would just use the BA Codex. Suddenly my devastators are cheaper and my assault squads are troops and all my vehicles are faster and my dreadnought can teleport and my LR can deep strike and so on. Neat! Why not? No faction in the game other than Marine variants in their standard issue power armor (all 5-7 of them depending on if you consider GK or CSM too) even has this option. That is why I think it is unfair.

More to the point though, I think it says something about the player and the type of game. It is a WAAC competative thing to do. Some players like to play that kind of game. Fine with me. I don't though. When I play with my toys I like to play with MY toys.

So be it, drag out the greys and soda cans and stuff too while you're at it. If I want a truly competative game I will play chess. If I want to play with cool toys I will use the cool toys I have because I have them because I like my cool toys, and I will not worry that a different toy might be better than my toy, since my toy is cool, otherwise I wouldn't have wanted it.

If anyone doesn't think it is a competative/WAAC choice, please try to find a single SW or BA collection being used with C:SM rules and I will stand corrected.