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nosferatu1001 wrote:
I do love that people complain about new fluff, yet when a book doesnt have too much new fluff in it they complain as well....sigh

I honestly don't mind not having much fluff. The Daemonhunters codex was quite sparse on the fluff, but what it had was really good. The Grey Knights codex on the other hand... Not so much.

It was more that there have been lots of whining about the O&G book NOT having enough new fluff, and abook which DOES have new fluff (which is mostly bad, although Mordrak is good) then gets moaned at for having new fluff....

As usual GW cannot win.

Polonius wrote:Eh, this happens with every new codex.

Except it doesn't.

The outpouring of hatred towards the Ward's GK Codex is above and beyond normal levels. New threads on the subject are even banned at 4Chan for crying out loud - that's how prevalent they are. I, personally, have never seen a reaction so strong to a Codex as this one ('cept maybe the Chaos one, but that was for very different reasons). To make the situation more interesting, most of the hatred isn't focused on the rules, but the fluff, where Ward has essentially raped the core of what GK's used to be and in the process turned them into a bad Saturday morning cartoon.

Written by a 12 year old... aimed at 12 year olds... my spider sense is tingling!

I just got my hands on the codex and read it... and I wanted to cry afterwards.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:AW - actually all of Codex : Daemons have the rule as well.

Meh, guess I'm the ignorant one then. Still, doesn't solve the issue with daemon princes etc.

I don't have the CSM book on hand, but I'm pretty sure Daemon Princes are considered Daemons as well, which is the reason for giving them eternal warrior. Everything in the Daemon codex, as previously said, does have the "Daemon" rule, as does the Avatar as you pointed out already. Basically, Grey Knights have preferred enemy against any of the following:

-Entire Codex: Daemons
-Spawned Lesser Daemons in CSM
-Spawned Greater Daemons in CSM
-Daemon Princes
-Avatar of Khaine


Quite a few models, but not ground breaking. Of course, it does make my primary army (daemons) very, very sad...

Must.. pour...clorox..in...ears....

Frankly my 5 year old comes up with better stories than the fluff. The rules are dodgy in places, or prone to loopholeism.

I was excited when it was first announced, and then less than thrilled when i got a good look at the dex.

The models are ok, but nothing special.

Ward's getting a lot of flak. Understandably so. But whilst we were happily venting away the other night someone pointed out to us that GW are approving what he's writing. Not only are they approving it, they're giving him more commissions to write.

All you can really take from that (which worries me, I'm not into an arms race where every codex has to have bigger nukes than the last ones and retcon good old fluff rather than envelope it into a cool story about why that's not so now and how it changed) but all you can really take from it is that this is the direction GW want to go with 40k.

After reading A Thousand Sons recently, the whole sorcery bit is really infuriating to me.

The Emperor outright banned any of its use, Magnus and his clan fell to its influence, despite the fact they trained with it constantly
Magnus, with all his power fell to its influence

So why would the Emperor himself commission a group that will train in its use, despite the fact that he abhorred it and knew men would succumb to its influence, no matter how gifted they are.

It begs the question as to why would he do this, but not teach his Primarchs how to control it and what they'd have to do to deal with it, instead what he does, is ignore the men he trusted with his life, and instead give that trust to astartes

Not only that the Grey Knights would have known of this decree even if he hadn't specified they could use it, so why would they have disobeyed it?

Psychic powers I can understand, but sorcery?
Its really, really irritating to read that after A Thousand sons

timetowaste85 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:AW - actually all of Codex : Daemons have the rule as well.

Meh, guess I'm the ignorant one then. Still, doesn't solve the issue with daemon princes etc.

I don't have the CSM book on hand, but I'm pretty sure Daemon Princes are considered Daemons as well, which is the reason for giving them eternal warrior. Everything in the Daemon codex, as previously said, does have the "Daemon" rule, as does the Avatar as you pointed out already. Basically, Grey Knights have preferred enemy against any of the following:

-Entire Codex: Daemons
-Spawned Lesser Daemons in CSM
-Spawned Greater Daemons in CSM
-Daemon Princes
-Avatar of Khaine


Quite a few models, but not ground breaking. Of course, it does make my primary army (daemons) very, very sad...

Just looked in the codex. Nothing in codex CSM has "Daemon" anything written in their rules. Only in name and fluff are they daemons, so Grey Knights have no power over them. Cool.

I took the time to read the timeline and fluff in detail, because something was bugging me, and I couldn't put my finger on it (due to the piles of other annoyances).

I finally tracked the irritation down:

There is not a single loss in the timeline or fluff, as far as I can tell.

There are a couple of occasions where the don't get the result they were after (demonic doppelgangers for example) but there isn't even one occasion where they get their asses kicked and are forced to retreat or where they all die in a famous last stand.

The GK lose sometimes. Thet aren't unbeatable. How come there are no losses in there

I'm not gonna lie, in terms of rules the book is mostly fine, a bit derpy in a couple areas, and not the route I would have taken to portray the Grey Knights, but mostly fairly balanced aside from Purifiers and 5pts for upgrading Assault and Autocannons with Psybolts (at 5pts, it's a mandatory auto-take option, either include it in the base cost at that point or make it actually cost enough for people to think about). However for a game and a company that subsist almost entirely on the strength of their IP, Mat Ward has, yet again, gone off the deep end and pushed out something that yet again looks like it was written by an 11 year old on the internet after the first time they saw Halo. It's just awful, and that's bad considering nobody would play this game without the background and fluff.

Rules are fine, Most of the full I can live with, Draigo and the sorcery bit have me a little miffed. The never lost a battle is the opposite of Chaos Space marines who haven't won a single black crusade or any major campaign.

I quite like the new codex.
I can still use ALL of my old DH army models with it.
Sure, roles change - but they did that to SM in the move from RT to 2nd to 3rd, 4th and 5th. Nothing new there.

(Medics and techmarines were ICs in RT, moved to command squad only, and now medics are still command squad only (more or less) and techmarines are back to being independent models.)

Fluff, schmuff. If you don't like the draigo fluff, then don't use the unit. I won't. I'm not even fussed on the model, tbh.

Crowe is a unit that singlehandedly makes your opponents army better and costs points.

Otherwise, there's nothing in there that is broken. Unlike the red marines or the flea-bitten marines.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Your excellent rebuttal in the form of what you must think is a witty picture, which must've taken you what? Five seconds of searching, to find, use and which has no context to whats being discussed here, is noted and you have single handedly through that picture managed to dismiss the valid and numerous complaints against the GK book

chromedog wrote:

Otherwise, there's nothing in there that is broken. Unlike the red marines or the flea-bitten marines.

You think the ability to oneshot any other model in the game, regardless of their own rules, with no save allowed is non-broken? You could legally destroy an Imperator Titan if you were in base to base

And no, this isn't reflex knee-jerking I have the codex. I've read it, and used it as well as playing against it

I think the fluff is fine. Many parts are quite excellent (the Founding of the Chapter, Terminus Decree, Purifier-Fortress). And while Draigo might not be the best stuff ever written, it never falls to the atrocious stuff one recently had to read in books like Space Wolves (Marines on a Ferris-Bueller-Day-off joyriding in kidnapped Thunderhawks?) or the Loony-Toon-style interpretation of 40K that permeates the Dark Eldar Codex where Vect is now throwing black-holes-in-a-box at his enemies while cackling like Bugs Bunny. And nothing I read outright violates existing fluff as grossly as, say, Cruddace re-writing of the Battle of Maccragge to force "Swarmy", his childish "Hive-Tyrant-but-more-awsome" into the existing fluff at all costs.

All in all, the Grey Knight fluff is even above average for 5th Edition books (in my humble opinion of course).

There are a few things I dislike about the new codex. First is the unclear rules. Stuff like falchions and dreadknights doomfists/teleporters, plus scouting shunts.

I dont care which way the rules go, I just think the codex pre FAQ is as valid as the leaked (and incorrect) gk codex... we dont have a complete rules set yet, despite having paid money for one.

As for the fluff... well I am not a huge fluff reader but the 2 armies I cared about the fluff on were Tyranids and Grey Knights--I liked their playstyle enough to read, and enjoy, their fluff.

Seeing as some of the stuff I liked about Grey Knights has been changed, just like the tyranids, now 2 of my fav armies play differently than they used to in 4th and 3rd ed, and in the case of the Knights their fluff is very different now as well.

For example... the Knights had an aversion to Dreadnaughts, but you can get 6 in a list. So playstyle and fluff are different. Dreadknights make a GK much stronger than anything else versus daemons... SO WHY NOT USE THEM TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE!

I mean, these guys are the elite of the elite designed to beat daemons, and the Dreadknight armor is the perfect armor and warrior weapon system to kill daemons. If you make something that good, and that perfect for their job, and have the chapter get their pick of weapons, then everyone should have dreadknight armor.

Also, what is the deal with PA GK other than purfiers being 1A with ld8?? GK are an army of SM vets, and can field 1000 termies, yet when in PA they become weaker and have less leadership?

Deadshane1 wrote:

Best post in the thread.

Short summery found here> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLhDf7XdgQc

Never get tired of these things

Asuron wrote:After reading A Thousand Sons recently, the whole sorcery bit is really infuriating to me.

The Emperor outright banned any of its use, Magnus and his clan fell to its influence, despite the fact they trained with it constantly
Magnus, with all his power fell to its influence

So why would the Emperor himself commission a group that will train in its use, despite the fact that he abhorred it and knew men would succumb to its influence, no matter how gifted they are.

It begs the question as to why would he do this, but not teach his Primarchs how to control it and what they'd have to do to deal with it, instead what he does, is ignore the men he trusted with his life, and instead give that trust to astartes

Not only that the Grey Knights would have known of this decree even if he hadn't specified they could use it, so why would they have disobeyed it?

Psychic powers I can understand, but sorcery?
Its really, really irritating to read that after A Thousand sons

Had the same discussion on another thread. Basically, the Emperor banned the use of 'sorcery' because the Librarians, and The Thousand Sons most of all, were getting closer to discovering the powers in the Warp, that he strived so hard to keep from humanity. When the Horus Heresy started, there was no way he was going to be able to hide Chaos from the Imperium. He realized that he may not survive, and that humanity would need something else to protect them from the threat of Chaos, so he created the Grey Knights, the ultimate weapons against the Daemonic. He armed them with every technology he could muster, then gave them some of his own geneseed to create new recruits with. The greatest weapon against Chaos is the Warp itself. He gave them every scrap of knowledge he had to fight the Daemonic with.

And no, its just 20% opinionated people, 80% Bandwagoners. Every bit of fluff fits the Grey Knight Image, bar Draigo. Read Manchu's thread and stop making new ones for more people to hop on the bandwagon.

iproxtaco wrote:
He armed them with every technology he could muster, then gave them some of his own geneseed to create new recruits with.

I thought that "geneseed of the Emperor" fan-myth had long been debunked, not least because the Emperor was no Space Marine and had no geneseed (or inversely, if he had, those produced from his geneseed would just be humans, not Space Marines).

Zweischneid wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He armed them with every technology he could muster, then gave them some of his own geneseed to create new recruits with.

I thought that "geneseed of the Emperor" fan-myth had long been debunked, not least because the Emperor was no Space Marine and had no geneseed (or inversely, if he had, those produced from his geneseed would just be humans, not Space Marines).

True, it doesn't actually state the Geneseed is directly from the Emperor, but it has been made in the past (Custodes, Primarchs). It says they were given powerful and pure Geneseed, that amplifies the psychic powers of the recipient. It's either Geneseed manufactured from the Emperor by the Emperor, highly modified and purified Astartes Geneseed or the same stuff they used for the Custodes, which would be from the Emperor. In other words, the codex itself hints quite heavily that the Geneseed is either directly from the Emperor, and actually says its different and closer to the Emperor's genetics than a normal Astartes's.

Asuron wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Your excellent rebuttal in the form of what you must think is a witty picture, which must've taken you what? Five seconds of searching, to find, use and which has no context to whats being discussed here, is noted and you have single handedly through that picture managed to dismiss the valid and numerous complaints against the GK book

See.....?

Polonius wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Anyone else out there infuriated by the quality and amount of threads complaining about the new GK codex?

I'm infuriated by the quality and amount of posts complaining about the complaining.

Eh, this happens with every new codex.

I guess so in some cases, although I think the DE codex was generally much better received, and there was definitely nothing like the derision aimed at some of the models.

i am more irritated that it takes me, at 2500 points, to do my turn at about 20 to 25 minutes first turn, about 15 to twenty round 2, 3, and 4. however, it will take the GK player easly 40 to 50 minutes his first turn. over half the time doing phsychic checks and other rolls. that is what is the most bothersome about the new GK.

martin74 wrote:i am more irritated that it takes me, at 2500 points, to do my turn at about 20 to 25 minutes first turn, about 15 to twenty round 2, 3, and 4. however, it will take the GK player easly 40 to 50 minutes his first turn. over half the time doing phsychic checks and other rolls. that is what is the most bothersome about the new GK.

That is your opponents problem.

It is NOT a problem of the Codex.

Short summery found here> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLhDf7XdgQc

That's rather amusing... must try and memorise the entire rant...

martin74 wrote:i am more irritated that it takes me, at 2500 points, to do my turn at about 20 to 25 minutes first turn, about 15 to twenty round 2, 3, and 4. however, it will take the GK player easly 40 to 50 minutes his first turn. over half the time doing phsychic checks and other rolls. that is what is the most bothersome about the new GK.

How the f^&^^ are they managing to take that long?

Given that the majority of psychic power use is close combat, turn one shouldnt be that bad. You just have a slow opponent.