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Re "Osprey art": I mostly buy Osprey books for the colour plates, which are as always, excellent sources of information.

George Spiggott wrote:

@ Big P: I'll not hear a word said against Ambrose. He was a great writer, with a flair for characters and pace that a few authors of (proper) fiction could do well to emulate.

I dont deny he was a great writer... Just not always 100% factual.

George Spiggott wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That one's far less "photos taken by people who weren't there" and more "actual photographs, not artist illustrations" like the Osprey books are filled with.

Or at least that's how it read to me.

You obviously buy different Osprey book to me. Fortunately the presence, or lack thereof, of period photographs does not define the quality of a history book. Not that I'm expecting a great history book, or great prose for that matter.

I think you misunderstood me.

The majority of the content in Osprey books is text, with the artist plates being the big kicker of the content in there.
The plates are well done, but at the same time: I'm not wanting artist renderings, I'm wanting to see photos with things pointed out dangit.

If you've looked at their stuff about Operation: Enduring Freedom or Special Operations in Afghanistan/Iraq, you know what I mean. The majority of the accounts are accompanied by artist renderings, rather than photos.

@ Big P: I'll not hear a word said against Ambrose. He was a great writer, with a flair for characters and pace that a few authors of (proper) fiction could do well to emulate.

Yeah...too bad he tried to do that with real characters right?


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BrookM wrote:Re "Osprey art": I mostly buy Osprey books for the colour plates, which are as always, excellent sources of information.

No doubt about that. Have you seen the Zombie book yet?

I should have made it more clear that I just read the part from the Warhammer Historical book as making it clear that they use "photographs from people who participated in the events", rather than a mixture of plates and photos.

Kanluwen wrote:The majority of the content in Osprey books is text, with the artist plates being the big kicker of the content in there.
The plates are well done, but at the same time: I'm not wanting artist renderings, I'm wanting to see photos with things pointed out dangit.

Then I'm sure you'll be happy.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...too bad he tried to do that with real characters right?

Too bad for anyone who wanted a history book but good news for anyone who wanted a great read.

George Spiggott wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The majority of the content in Osprey books is text, with the artist plates being the big kicker of the content in there.
The plates are well done, but at the same time: I'm not wanting artist renderings, I'm wanting to see photos with things pointed out dangit.

Then I'm sure you'll be happy.

If I was planning on buying it, yeah. There's hardly enough people around these days for me to get 40k in, much less a system that isn't 40k

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...too bad he tried to do that with real characters right?

Too bad for anyone who wanted a history book but good news for anyone who wanted a great read.

Oh yeah.

His biography of Patton was hilariously over the top. I didn't realize it, of course, when I used it for a project back in 7th grade but reading it back over now just wow.

BrookM wrote:Re "Osprey art": I mostly buy Osprey books for the colour plates, which are as always, excellent sources of information.

Check out some of the historical gaming forums and see whats thought about the Osprey books...

Mick

I don't like those historical forums much, I'm hoping to avoid grognards in all honesty, some people take it all too serious. It is the primary reason I quit historical wargaming, grognards and their impossible high standards of realism.

Kanluwen wrote:Have you seen the Zombie book yet?

Seen it, bought it, loving it. Don't tell the grognards though, they might harp on about this and that not being up to their anal standards.

£48 is a lot of money for a wargames rulebook, especially when it only covers the Normandy campaign. No doubt the pictures and narrative have been included to justify the high price.

As a cheapskate old cynic -- or someone who knows how to read history books -- take your pick -- I am not interested in rebuying the "fluff" for a WW2 game. Show me the rules.

I've got Flames of War. The main thing that keeps me off it is that I don't want to buy into a limited range of 15mm WW2 stuff when there is a huge range of 1/72 stuff out there. So I am ripe for a dedicated 1/72 scale set.

They should release a quick start rule set as a PDF, just to show off how the game works.

And maybe it's just me, but the other thing that keeps me from Flames of War, aside from the scale, it their pricing, especially around here.

The thing with FoW is that all you really need from them are the books. I have loads of Peter Pink? stuff and from a few other manufacturers of that scale. Sorry, I can't remember their names as I'm having a senior moment. My issue is that at 1/72nd you don't really get the larger forces of a 15mm game, and it's not skirmishy enough to drag me away from 28mm. I agree there are tons of kits, but I already have two scales of WW2 that stare at me accusingly

If the book is shown off at Salute, I'm sure we'll get some realistic feedback from members that try it.

BrookM wrote:I don't like those historical forums much, I'm hoping to avoid grognards in all honesty, some people take it all too serious. It is the primary reason I quit historical wargaming, grognards and their impossible high standards of realism.

Kanluwen wrote:Have you seen the Zombie book yet?

Seen it, bought it, loving it. Don't tell the grognards though, they might harp on about this and that not being up to their anal standards.

Would you like a bigger broom for your sweeping statements?

Is it like the fact that all 40k gamers are heavy metal fans and live in their parents basement and have dubious skin conditions.

Besides... God forbid someone take history seriously... I mean only a few million died in WW2, not really that serious is it.


Right, Im off to count the rivets on my 1/72 38t to make sure it has the correct number...

Osprey are quite good to get into the period and thats all they intend to be. The bibliography at the end of their books point you to the more detailed books. So I can´t understand the nutpicking of some "Historicans".

Big P wrote:

BrookM wrote:I don't like those historical forums much, I'm hoping to avoid grognards in all honesty, some people take it all too serious. It is the primary reason I quit historical wargaming, grognards and their impossible high standards of realism.

Kanluwen wrote:Have you seen the Zombie book yet?

Seen it, bought it, loving it. Don't tell the grognards though, they might harp on about this and that not being up to their anal standards.

Would you like a bigger broom for your sweeping statements?

Is it like the fact that all 40k gamers are heavy metal fans and live in their parents basement and have dubious skin conditions.

Besides... God forbid someone take history seriously... I mean only a few million died in WW2, not really that serious is it.


Right, Im off to count the rivets on my 1/72 38t to make sure it has the correct number...

A thousand pardons mi'lord, I wasn't jesting at the many many dead, but rather the anal statements they tend to make in regards to certain paints used or decals. Now if you'll excuse me, I really do need a bigger broom.

Captain Jack wrote:The thing with FoW is that all you really need from them are the books. I have loads of Peter Pink? stuff and from a few other manufacturers of that scale. Sorry, I can't remember their names as I'm having a senior moment. My issue is that at 1/72nd you don't really get the larger forces of a 15mm game, and it's not skirmishy enough to drag me away from 28mm. I agree there are tons of kits, but I already have two scales of WW2 that stare at me accusingly

If the book is shown off at Salute, I'm sure we'll get some realistic feedback from members that try it.

You're thinking of Peter Pig.

Personally I don't think 1/72 vs 15mm makes much difference in terms of forces on the table. It's only 3 to 4, which can be overcome with a larger table. Switching to 15mm doesn't suddenly let you play with lots of tanks.

If you are going to scale your rules so that one vehicle model = one vehicle, you can never really do WW2 properly except in 6mm scale.

A thousand pardons mi'lord, I wasn't jesting at the many many dead, but rather the anal statements they tend to make in regards to certain paints used or decals. Now if you'll excuse me, I really do need a bigger broom.

Well, thats different... If you want anal, I once saw an arguement between two ancients gamers over whether one guys NAKED Greek hoplites had the correct sandals...

Never venture on TMP... Its full of them.

Just not all us hysterical gamers are grumpy old grognards.

Well I am, but you get my point. ;-)


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Kilkrazy wrote:

If you are going to scale your rules so that one vehicle model = one vehicle, you can never really do WW2 properly except in 6mm scale.

Correct.

I once played 'real scale' in 1/72. Had to use the garden to play in due to the range on my Tiger Is. Even real scale in 6mm a Tiger tanks range is bigger than most tables.

So sadly the chances of people getting together and doing a 1:72 refight of Kursk will be a deranged fantasy.

Big P wrote:
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Kilkrazy wrote:

If you are going to scale your rules so that one vehicle model = one vehicle, you can never really do WW2 properly except in 6mm scale.

Correct.

I once played 'real scale' in 1/72. Had to use the garden to play in due to the range on my Tiger Is. Even real scale in 6mm a Tiger tanks range is bigger than most tables.

Abstract rules I suppose have their benefits

Although I do prefer details like ammunition and slopped armor

Kilkrazy wrote:You're thinking of Peter Pig.

Personally I don't think 1/72 vs 15mm makes much difference in terms of forces on the table. It's only 3 to 4, which can be overcome with a larger table. Switching to 15mm doesn't suddenly let you play with lots of tanks.

If you are going to scale your rules so that one vehicle model = one vehicle, you can never really do WW2 properly except in 6mm scale.

That's it, thanks. I know it's only a few more units, but it's enough for me as I won't go back to 6mm as I like some detail in the minis (not that it's helped me get 'em painted). It's horses for courses, I'm not going to dismiss the book outright even though the scale isn't to my taste.

BrookM wrote:So sadly the chances of people getting together and doing a 1:72 refight of Kursk will be a deranged fantasy.

When I was a in a club years ago, some deranged friends got together and did the Battle of Prokhorovka (a sub-battle of Kursk) as a 6mm tank only game.

I had charge of a group of about 50 T34s as my part of the Soviet army. I simply drove up the field as quickly as possible while the Germans shot at the heavy tanks. Most of my tanks got into the German positions and were able to attack by shooting from behind or ramming.

The battlefield at Kursk was many miles wide and would be impossible to fit on any table. You would need to hire a large hall and play on the floor.

This kind of battle is best fought as a campaign game using maps, to be honest.

What no minis!

What would be the point without fields of beautifly detailed plain grey plastic every where?

BrookM wrote:And maybe it's just me, but the other thing that keeps me from Flames of War, aside from the scale, it their pricing, especially around here.

It should keep you away from Battlefront's minis. There's no need for it to make you stay away from Flames of War.

At least you SEE what you get for your money... with many other companies you only get a description what you are buying....

notprop wrote:What no minis!

What would be the point without fields of beautifly detailed plain grey plastic every where?

Theres plenty of minis, although maybe not in grey plastic

Historical rules usually depend on other companies for models, aside from a few like FoW and even then there are multiple other 15mm manufacturers

For those interested in whats available in 20mm for WW2, I modestly recommend a forum that I run with several others.

www.guildwargamers.com

Its focusses primarily on 20mm gaming for WW2 and Modern conflicts and has most manufacturers onboard as well as a 'Living Catalogue' section and massive galleries of figures, vehicles and terrain.

Yeah I get that, it was just a comment on the maps vs the stereotype of of 40K games with no painted minis. 8)