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still, i wouldn't bring a TFC to larger then a 1850 game.


3 TFCs at 1850 might actually be pretty scary.


Libby (TDA)

3 tac squads in rhinos

5 assault terminators in LRC

some Typhoon speeders

3 TFCs


that could be a scary amount of fire power.

Mannahnin wrote:Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they pile out of an exploded transport.
Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they disembark a unit from a wrecked transport with only one hatch.

Assuming the other player hasn't already neutralized the TFC, which is pretty easy to do.

Plus, they very likely get cover in this case, or are squads that are cheap enough the TFC will still struggle to get its points back.

Mannahnin wrote:Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they're bunched up from an assault, win, and then roll a 1 for Consolidate distance.
Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they Deep Strike, Run and happen to roll that 1. Or 2 or 3 with a large unit.
Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when you tank shock them.

I said competent opponents. These situations are all pretty easy to work around. Plus, once again, you're assuming that the TFC survived past turn 1, so that any of these things are a possibility.

Mannahnin wrote:Opponents often choose to bunch up...

In which case, they're either being foolish, or the TFC poses an insufficient threat. In the case of the latter "it's good when your opponent realises it's bad enough to ignore" is hardly a ringing endorsement.

In the end, you're spending triple digit points for a single space marine that doesn't even gain the benefit of hiding in a squad. It's just too fragile to put out much damage, which means it doesn't put out much damage for its cost.

Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they pile out of an exploded transport.
Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they disembark a unit from a wrecked transport with only one hatch.

Assuming the other player hasn't already neutralized the TFC, which is pretty easy to do.

Plus, they very likely get cover in this case,

Which is totally irrelevant. Because if their armor save is poor, you can choose the cover-ignoring shot. And if not, you choose the S6 standard, and just force a ton saves, like I said the first time.

Ailaros wrote:...or are squads that are cheap enough the TFC will still struggle to get its points back.

Did you seriously just say "get its points back"? I know you play 5th edition, so what could move you to such an outdated figure of speech? Heck, that was a poor guage of a unit's worth even when VPs mattered.

Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they're bunched up from an assault, win, and then roll a 1 for Consolidate distance.
Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when they Deep Strike, Run and happen to roll that 1. Or 2 or 3 with a large unit.
Opponents don't have a choice about bunching up when you tank shock them.

I said competent opponents. These situations are all pretty easy to work around. Plus, once again, you're assuming that the TFC survived past turn 1, so that any of these things are a possibility.

None of my situations require an incompetent opponent. All of them are commonplace situations in everyday games. It is disingenous of you to pretend otherwise. Almost any unit can die on turn one. This may be difficult to wrap your head around for a guy who primarily plays horde guard, but most of us are accustomed to dealing with the possibility that any of our vehicles could theoretically be killed before we get a turn, up to and including Land Raiders. It's far from an insurmountable problem or overawing fear.

Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Opponents often choose to bunch up...

In which case, they're either being foolish, or the TFC poses an insufficient threat. In the case of the latter "it's good when your opponent realises it's bad enough to ignore" is hardly a ringing endorsement.

Not true at all. The TFC creates situations (in some ways like a Vindicator) where your opponent's movement and squad positioning is impacted by its very existence. He either spreads out, making his movement less efficient and more hindered by terrain and other units, or he bunches up and the TFC punishes him for it. Hopefully he's like you and dismisses it as not actually dangerous.

Good units and good army lists force people into "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations and choices. The TFC is one of them. It's cheap enough to be a minor loss if it dies. It's lethal enough to represent a disproportionate threat for its cost.

Ailaros wrote:In the end, you're spending triple digit points for a single space marine that doesn't even gain the benefit of hiding in a squad.

What? You're spending 100pts for a gun which has a 60" range and can ignore cover. One of the only units in the game which can realistically clear a unit of Grots or Pathfinders or Kroot or Scouts or IG Going to Ground in cover off of an objective without assaulting them. Or which can put as many blast marker hits on a squad as a whole unit of devastators or long fangs, only at S6 instead of S4. Once (if) it dies, you have an IC left over with a 2+ save, fist, flamer, and TL plasma pistol.

I'm not sure why you're so attached to this argument, when you clearly haven't fielded it yourself or faced it used by a competent SM player.

I tend to use the TFC as a simple disruption unit. Opponents really don't like having to move in difficult terrain when they're in the open. Since all you have to do is "hit" a unit (which means even Land Raiders can be immobilized by it), I tend to place the blast in ways to catch multiple units at once, and then pray for hilarious scatters. Forcing 3 or 4 units a turn into difficult terrain can be annoying. Once against a tyranid horde player, I forced 8 units to roll difficult terrain during the next turn.

Um, what about getting charged? I play very casually, usually against my brother who plays orks, but if you take them in these scenarios, it would be devastating.

I have no experience with TFC's, but theoretically it would be the Kan Wall killer. I know my brother's list lacks any significant amount of ranged firepower that could even reach a Table-edge TFC for several terms, and until then, as in the Kan Wall scenario, it could penetrate kans armor, and negate the cover saves granted by the KFF, or just slow the whole mass down with sub-rounds. I imagine this to be the case against many horde/assault armies that lack range.
And it seems that range would be the TFC's best defense.

General Fuzzum wrote:
And it seems that range would be the TFC's best defense.

Thats another point to consider. The TFC is the only normal weapon in the vanilla book that has a range greater than 48". The conversion beamer can, however you can only take one of those. So with a thunderfire cannon you can help close the gap with armies that have a lot of long ranged weapons (Tau and IG come to mind).

I have used 2 thunderfires and a vindi competitvely at 2K and its affects are awesome.

it works awesome against horde armies, and against marines and others the sheer volume of saves you make them take is phenomenal. It really is an anti infantry killing machine with lots of high str hits.

I get the haters telling me its a waste and I don''t know what I am doing, but used smartly it can be quite impressive. It does work and it works very well. I also fully advocate using 2 of them. I think 3 is doable, but honestly, in a competitive sense those points are better used on a LR or vindi. While OT, I am not a big fan of predators so that would not be one of my 3rd slot fillers.

The plus
60" range with str 6, 5 or 4 and can ignore cover saves.
Techmarine with full servo harness.
4 blast templates, which against a blown up transport sets up a nice target on the riders or gives hordes fits.
it is capable of damaging light vechicles, but ideally is best suited for anti infantry, in particular those pesky LF ML spam units that like to bunch up in cover.
cheap pt cost

the negative
only AV10
any glancing or penetrating hit destroys it
fairly static

others are of course free to break this all down and give counter arguments, which is perfectly fine. My point to this is it can be used effectively and competitively.
Anyhoo, my two cents