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Why yes in fact I can, the reason I do is because I feel like spending some of my free time like that. It was definitely not just an example to empathise my point.

The main reason they can gain any profit and not advertise and why is cause they can and it's cheaper to not advertise. Just makes them slightly odd though as really they should be bankrupt by now with that strategy, but strangely aren't.

It won't last forever, as sinking funds is probably more of a recovery move. I guess it depends on how the LoTR goes when the new movie comes out. If they're smart they'll capitalise on any success it generates and invest it back into the company (this is the most likely way to see any price reduction in products, yet you won't anyway). At most they'll readjust the prices to match the fluctuation of the currencies, but only when they can no longer profit from the currently set prices. I agree with you that they're there to make money and not to give you models.

Kirby himself has even admitted to the pricing strategy in a way.

Tom Kirby wrote:
You are right to say that if prices are too high people will be alienated. The fact that we have been recruiting new Hobbyists over many, many years, that we are seeing excellent growth around the world with good retention of hobbyists is pretty conclusive proof that they are not. Making miniatures is not a simple process and so our R&D costs are high - you’ll see plenty of detail on this in our financial report (on this web site). Also, our miniatures are the best in the world and we believe in charging premium prices for our premium products and services.

What we are selling is a hobby – not toys and not a pass-time. Committed gamers and collectors and modellers know they get wonderful value for money from Games Workshop products. Far better value, I suggest, than from similar amounts of money spent on meals out, sports events, boozy nights in the pub. Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun. Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life!

Quote from their investor relations archive here.

I'm not going to say I'm pleased with the current prices, but if they can sell it at such a high price they will. Anything else would just be denying them relatively easy profits.
If people didn't like the prices, they wouldn't buy at the set prices. Therefore there must be enough people out there that are alright with the prices to justify a rise instead of a reduction in the price. The main problem people are having is their trade embargo with the rest of the world currently, effectively boosting prices in some places by an easy 40-60%. Though if they did the same price increase over a long period of time at small intervals no one would probably notice all too much or care about it.

As a finance analyst working in the retail sector and having looked at GWs result for almost the last 10 years, IM(professional)O GW is a badly run company, using a business model that is 15+ years out of date and there is a pretty obvious volume decline stretching back nearly a decade.

GW are a dying company, they just aren't going to die soon.

Couple of points of order to throw in:

If GW's falling sales etc are because of the current economic situation and not because of bad business, how is it that other companies existing in the same conomic "weather" are increasing sales, expanding and reaping a profit? Hobby companies. GW cannot blame its problems on the current economy.

@ OP: PP models many not be "customizable" per se, but that is because the system itself is designed to be customizable. Which doesn't mean you can't model or convert PP figures. The greater part of my PP forces end up converted. Its not even strictly neccessary to use PP models at all.

And yes, PP players tolerate higher prices better because each item they are buying is infinitely more useful than an equivalently priced GW miniature. You also require a lot less of them. When one can purchase a whole starter force (and rules) for less than the price of a single small unit, Price becomes less of a problem on an individual model basis.

Tom Kirby wrote:Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun. Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life until the new edition makes all your models useless!

Fixed that for him.

n0t_u wrote:

Tom Kirby wrote:
Also, our miniatures are the best in the world and we believe in charging premium prices for our premium products and services.

If people didn't like the prices, they wouldn't buy at the set prices.

@ Tom Kirby quote. No, they aren't. They really aren't. There are better and nicer miniatures out there in droves.

and @ n0t_u .... I get the impression that many people are not buying at the set prices, and a lot of them haven't been for quite some time. The number of people buying at the set prices appears to be falling by year.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, proof that not everybody is seeing damage to their business because of the current economy:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370077.page

PP are so damn popular they are delaying releases to concentrate on making up demand.

I get the same impression as well really, but there are people willing to buy at the price the fact that they have any profit at all proves it. I stopped buying with the recent price rise due to the embargo myself, but the price rises had been slowing me down a little anyway. I'm by no means trying to support their recent lapse of intelligence.

I'm just trying to figure out why they think it's a good idea to continue to raise the prices and really turn away a possibly great deal of potential customers. It's just a slow death through shots to the foot really.

I'd rather not have the decision to stop buying GW as a knee-jerk reaction and have it thought out a little more; as it will help me stick to it. The only logical way to drop their prices down is to decrease the demand for their products. But, the way I see it, it will be rather slow if it happens at all. The Hobbit movie and likely to follow models and interest will likely make them increase the prices further, as demand kicks up and they can get away with it a little longer.

Something people have forgotten; is that for up and coming wargames to take its buisness...then they are gonna have to actually offer armies that people like. I don't like Warmachine or anything because they don't offer a single army that I even remotely like (the quality of most in fact disgusts me).

Hi all.
The thing GW plc is ignoring is that they may be close to loosing critical mass.

As GWplc do not want to admit thier buisness is based on social interaction.And that they ONLY need to lose about half the players in a group before the group switched over to another companies product entirley.

Wargames companies have to remember that GAMES are the driving force behind thier buisness.Great games attract more custom and grow thier customer base.
So looking at companies that focus on game play and treat customers with mutual respect , they seem to be growing in a time of recession.

When GW plc lost it focus , and decided to target a demoghraphic that was not suited to their products, because it was easier for them.
They simply lost the impetus they had gained over the previous decade.

They are trying to sell toy 'soldiers to kiddies' , but price them out of 'pocket money' range .
They write the rules for 'collectors' and people who think 'the rules are not that important'.And so just add NO value to the product, just increse the price.

Look as Mantic Games as an example of how to do things right!

Look at GW plc as an example of how to 'loose customers and alienate people '

Mantic have started off great. They have focused on armies that people like. Created models that people want to buy. Created a gaming system that is easy to use and create a product range that suits a very large demographic.

Miniatures/Wargaming companies rely on customer recomendation to increase there business. Very few people will just collect the models they want to imerse themselves in the whole game/universe. Pricing some people out of this reduces the people playing and will then reduce the number of recommendations that follow.

GW always done so well because there was no other real competition, and what was around GW's lawyers soon stopped. Now some of the companies have made it through GW is having to deal with younger, fresher competition which is something they have never has to do.

I think they need to go back to the start and build a new business model. Use everything they can to maximise their potential.

They have a huge number of retail outlets why not use these to sell other miniatures as well. Profit out of another company. This would give customers more scope in the stores attracting more people in which will in turn boost sales from their own lines.

They just need to realise that although they are the biggest fish in the pond they are not the only one.

GW have surrvived so long because they control a good 85% of the wargamings industry. In an average local gaming club you'll 5-6 people playing Warhammer of some description, 2-3 playing Warmachine, and precious little else. They have effectively saturated the market with their product, allowing them to charge almost whatever they want, without fear of being undercut by a serious competitor.

The market breaking point is so much higher, because customers do not want to lose their social spectrum by switching to a more unpopular game. Now it'll happen eventually- probably when a standard infantry unit breaches the £25 mark, but in a more competitive market GW would not be able to reach that without losing hordes of customers to similarly popular wargames.

Things would be so much better for the customer if instead of an 85% stake, GW had 45%, PP had 30% a third party had 22% and 3% was made up of independant companies.

mercer wrote:TBH Games Workshop does listen to customers. Proof is in the 5th edition rulebook when they adapted true line of sight. Mentioned in W.D that many people were doing this in 4th even though not part of the rules and they incorporated it because that's how people played/wanted.

Er... true LOS was not new to 5th edition. It's been the core of the LOS rules since Rogue Trader. Some people just misunderstood the abstract LOS rules introduced in 4th edition to deal with Area Terrain and Assaults, and thought that they were supposed to be used all of the time.


On topic, I think a very large part of GW's success has always come down to being ahead of the field on miniature design, and having interesting fluff. Although a certain amount of it was possibly just timing... they managed to be better enough than the major competitors for long enough to reach a size where they stayed popular purely because they were popular. Through the late 90's, early 00's, you played WHFB or 40K because you could find opponents and venues more easily than any other game out there.

That may well change. The internet has changed the way games are marketed, and you no longer need to be a large corporation to achieve a global market. So some of the smaller but good games are starting to gain some traction.

Perkustin wrote:Why has privateer press failed to capitilise on the increasing horde of disillusioned fans?

Huh?

PP have been constantly swamped with stock orders for over twelve months, the demand for their products is just crazy.

They've just pushed back Augusts releases to cope with demand because there are that many people buying their things.

They gave away 1000, that's one thousand of their starter boxes at Adepticon. That's a playable force, with the rules inside. I think it was worked out (by others) that if even 10% of the players who received their free starter box give the system a go, PP have made their money back and then some.

I'd say they've capitalised just fine.

Mr Hyena wrote:I don't like Warmachine or anything because they don't offer a single army that I even remotely like (the quality of most in fact disgusts me).

Really? That's a shame..

Really? That's a shame..

Yeah, I'm sorry, but that looks just too bright and WoW like.

Fair enough then. It's funny, I've been saying the same things about GW.

Bright and WOW like? Are you including the Winterized and heavily weathering machine at the bottom in that? Because if you are then I have to tell you that every piece of real military kit that ever got used in winter is "Bright and WOW-like" as well.

Also, are you not confusing the sculpting/posing of the miniatures with the entirely optional paint schemes? You do know that PP say you can paint your figures any way you like, don't you?

As for "disgust".. need I point you at the lammassu, or the Morris Dancing Chaplain fiasco for actually physically repulsive figures?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Bright and WOW like?

I would suspect the 'WOW like' is more down to PP's characteristic sculpting style than the paintjobs.

They tend to walk a very fine line between awesomely chunky (if slightly silly due to the over-exaggerated proportions) and just too over the top. It's just a style that's not for everyone, just as some people really dislike the not-quite-as-extreme-but-still-exaggerated proportions of GW miniatures.

Dear thread,

here's a hunting dog and a ouija board, please use them to find your way back on track,

cheers

CadianXV wrote:In an average local gaming club you'll 5-6 people playing Warhammer of some description, 2-3 playing Warmachine, and precious little else.

Out of ten players in my club, 2 play 5th Ed 40k. They have played once in the last year.

All ten of us play historicals.

Try to remember, that GW may have 85% of the Sci-Fi/Fantasy gaming market (do you have any actual data to back this claim?).

They do not have the same share of the wargamming hobby in general.

Why are GW Players unable to grasp that GW does not equal Wargamming? GW = GW Hobby.

Try and remember that there are alot of historical gamers out there, and we have been going alot longer than GW games...

Ok- discounting historicals.
Also, no I don't have hard data, but at £126.5million revenue in 2010 I think its fair to say they have a significant majority.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Bright and WOW like? Are you including the Winterized and heavily weathering machine at the bottom in that? Because if you are then I have to tell you that every piece of real military kit that ever got used in winter is "Bright and WOW-like" as well.

Also, are you not confusing the sculpting/posing of the miniatures with the entirely optional paint schemes? You do know that PP say you can paint your figures any way you like, don't you?

As for "disgust".. need I point you at the lammassu, or the Morris Dancing Chaplain fiasco for actually physically repulsive figures?

insaniak is right. Its the combination of the paint scheme and the proportions of the model that make it look VERY WoW like.

In order to earn my purchase; models have to be pretty grimdark or at least gritty; with slightly realistic proportions. Until a company does that (apart from GW); then my money will go to GW only. Aesthetics can mean alot to people.

Mr Hyena wrote: with slightly realistic proportions. Until a company does that (apart from GW); then my money will go to GW only. Aesthetics can mean alot to people.

LMAO... GW... Realistic Proportions? Please.

Space Marines must be aneorix to fit in their armour.

To be fair though, realistic proportions just dont work on small scale models. You have to over emphasise certain aspects. Though some of GW weapon sizes are just plain daft.

Hence why I spend all my spare money on 1985-89 figures. They actually have weapons they can hold up...

I second that Lmao. Realistic Proportions from GW....Yeah, if you did a LOT of Acid then they have realistic proportions. And gritty/grimdark is in the paint-jobs as much as anything else.

Baragash wrote:As a finance analyst working in the retail sector and having looked at GWs result for almost the last 10 years, IM(professional)O GW is a badly run company, using a business model that is 15+ years out of date and there is a pretty obvious volume decline stretching back nearly a decade.

GW are a dying company, they just aren't going to die soon.

This might be how "we can look into the future and see what GW business will be like 5 years from now". If this was an isolated decision, then people would probably not be justified in predicting doom and gloom.

On the other hand, GW has been seeing declines in their total sales for years. They've been having annual price increases for years. They have been losing market share to competitors for years. They have been fretting about rumors and leaks for years.

If the company keeps taking the same actions (squashing rumors, squelching previews, hiking prices), they should expect to see the same results (drops in total sales, drops in market share), not something else.

The shame is that GW isn't a terrible company. They do MANY things quite well. A lot of their new miniatures are fantastic. Their new plastic kits, for the most part, are much better than their old ones. Some of their new rule books are quite good. A lot of their new fiction is very good. Compared to many miniatures website, their web store and website are attractive and usable (have you tried to find stuff on Wargames Foundry?).

The problem (to me) is that GW isn't capitalizing on their strengths, nor are they eliminating their weaknesses. Instead, they seem to be randomly generating good and bad decisions. I don't think GW is dying. I think GW is setting themselves up (not deliberately) to be bought out by another company. I don't want to see that, because it seems like they could simply start making MORE good decisions and less BAD ones. I'm not eager to see what some other company might do to the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 "game universes".

Kouzuki wrote:Who says my opinion is different? I'm pretty sure my opinion is the same or similar as anyone with a finance or accounting background.

No, it's not:

Kouzuki wrote:GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done

Is an opinion that is:

MikeMcSomething wrote:a 100% completely opposite opinion of every other poster on this website with a finance or accounting background (including the ones that are actually securities analysts)

Da Butcha wrote:The problem (to me) is that GW isn't capitalizing on their strengths, nor are they eliminating their weaknesses. Instead, they seem to be randomly generating good and bad decisions.

Ever get the feeling they are rolling the decisions on a table they made up, using a huge diamond-encrusted dice?

Kouzuki wrote:GW has survived so long because it is a decently managed company doing business efficiently and how it should be done.

(most)Customers know nothing of GW's internal workings, and if they do, it's usually considered illegal. Hence, GW does not, and should not listen to customers regarding business practice.

???

The current GW company leadership isn't the same one that they started with. GW began as a basic Cidital- gaming company that was based in D and D and basic gaming content, much the same as some of your gaming podcasts, and fansights as you have today.

The Cidital miniatures were basicly the Mantic, Chapterhouse, or any number of wacky third hand companies that in much the same way as they made off hand attachments, additional models, variations on a theme... GW did the same thing only they did it for D and D and for the numerous, and I mean WITHOUT NUMBER of gaming compnaies that were out there at the time...
You all might not know it, but the gaming scene was completly different then it is today. There was no one size fits all company, and there were extensive choices out there.

As the company began to take shape, issues of IP began to follow. First with them with thier numerous one off products, then later on FOR them as they systematicly cornered the market on "The Hobby."

The true test for them came with the advent of 2d edition 40K, with an issue that came up with the infamous Armorcast issue, and the introduction of Forgeworlds, and then as they branched off to Sabertooth, the video game companies that's names escape me, and Citidal, yet again, only in this case into them making just warhammer and 40K miniatures.( 2d edition was an advent of the RT era minis, and then you began to see the likes of directly for 40K, directly for fantasy, and the offshoot Specialist games.)

In '94, with the consolidation of the Publicly traded company, we started hearing the noise of the excuses for the price increase, the disconnect of the company leadership with both the gaming designers, and the gaming community, and the rather questionable prectices that began with the advent of the release of the plastic kits.

Before then, the plastic kits were in standard kits of 3 vehicles, Mini's came in sets of over 30, and the metals had a whole contingent in whatever basic box or blister pack you got. When GW came out with a product, they didn't !@#$ around, either. They had a six or eight page write up in WD, and they pushed fans to push thier own modification and conversions limits, and even encouraged them.

mmm..... good times, man... good times...

THEN we started seeing the fall of the GW empire as games designers, sculpters, and staff began jumping ship. As they jumped ship, people stepped up to take thier place, and the eventual replacement with people much less qualified eventually took us to today's issues.


The road to heresy is started with the first step...


!@#$ am I that old?


Get of my lawn, you damn kids!

Timing was huge, but most importantly, I think it's because they created a universe which is unique and nearly universally appealing to anyone who would ever be interested in sci-fi gaming.

They have arguably the best miniatures in the business, and the most developed universe.


Nowadays, they do so well because of horizontal expansion. At one time or another, GW has produced miniatures, games, videogames on PC and console, music, clothing, events, etc. The universe is supported by nearly every relevant medium.

LMAO... GW... Realistic Proportions? Please.

Have you seen Warmachines stuff? It looks more like a cartoon in terms or proportion. It blows all immersion out of the water.

No more of this here please! ~Manchu

OK we get it My Hyena - you don't like PP stuff...

Change the record, please. If you wish to praise GW ad nauseam then make your own thread please.

Filbert is correct. That kind of thing is off-topic and will likely de-rail the thread. Please desist.

Go here instead:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/370261.page#2829443