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Dracos wrote:Basically mech DE has a very bad matchup against mech eldar. Serpents, falcons and walkers are all going to be part of what makes a good anti-de list, and they also work well normally.

yeah the massed Str 6 is really nasty for DE. Most of the things DE have to weather massed str6(pain engines, wracks, grots) doest have the speed to catch it.

Exergy wrote:

Dracos wrote:Basically mech DE has a very bad matchup against mech eldar. Serpents, falcons and walkers are all going to be part of what makes a good anti-de list, and they also work well normally.

yeah the massed Str 6 is really nasty for DE. Most of the things DE have to weather massed str6(pain engines, wracks, grots) doest have the speed to catch it.

Normally fire dragons would have no good targets against DE so pain engines would just give them an easy target. Wracks and grots have a 6+ armor so they will die in droves to dire avengers if they are ever caught out in the open, because at that point their 4+ FNP is no better than a 4+ cover save.

The funny thing with Eldar armies is they are very competitive against the 2 most recent 5th ed codex DE and GK.

schadenfreude wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Dracos wrote:Basically mech DE has a very bad matchup against mech eldar. Serpents, falcons and walkers are all going to be part of what makes a good anti-de list, and they also work well normally.

yeah the massed Str 6 is really nasty for DE. Most of the things DE have to weather massed str6(pain engines, wracks, grots) doest have the speed to catch it.

Normally fire dragons would have no good targets against DE so pain engines would just give them an easy target. Wracks and grots have a 6+ armor so they will die in droves to dire avengers if they are ever caught out in the open, because at that point their 4+ FNP is no better than a 4+ cover save.

but wracks still have T4 and the 4+ FNP save is in addition to cover if they can get it(often they can) Wracks are 10 points and have surviability similar to Meq(slightly worse in the open, better in cover) For the points they do ok.

crucially wracks still get their FNP against Str6(except star cannons)
Pain engines will die to fire dragons, but most eldar players wouldnt take fire dragons against a DE player. Still without being faster, pain engines are useless.

I love my Dual Flamer Stormies with a Destructor Lock every time I face DE. Combine them with spammed S6 and DE hate it.

Exergy wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Dracos wrote:Basically mech DE has a very bad matchup against mech eldar. Serpents, falcons and walkers are all going to be part of what makes a good anti-de list, and they also work well normally.

yeah the massed Str 6 is really nasty for DE. Most of the things DE have to weather massed str6(pain engines, wracks, grots) doest have the speed to catch it.

Normally fire dragons would have no good targets against DE so pain engines would just give them an easy target. Wracks and grots have a 6+ armor so they will die in droves to dire avengers if they are ever caught out in the open, because at that point their 4+ FNP is no better than a 4+ cover save.

but wracks still have T4 and the 4+ FNP save is in addition to cover if they can get it(often they can) Wracks are 10 points and have surviability similar to Meq(slightly worse in the open, better in cover) For the points they do ok.

crucially wracks still get their FNP against Str6(except star cannons)
Pain engines will die to fire dragons, but most eldar players wouldnt take fire dragons against a DE player. Still without being faster, pain engines are useless.

I'm comparing tournament lists to tournament lists, not tailored lists to tailored lists. Eldar are going to struggle a bit with making good use of fire dragons, but they would still do well against Incubi, grots, or wracks.

Wracks do well for their points, but they would still get chewed up by bladestorm + doom. Scatter lasers against wracks is a bad idea as long as raider/venoms are still alive. Wracks are also a bit too slow to hug cover for the entire game. Without fleet wracks have the problem that DA can just hang out between 13-18" shooting wracks in cover.

DE also don't have any psychic defense besides the crucible which is unreliable and easily avoided.

IMO Eldar are the best tooled army for fighting DE.

schadenfreude wrote:
I'm comparing tournament lists to tournament lists, not tailored lists to tailored lists. Eldar are going to struggle a bit with making good use of fire dragons, but they would still do well against Incubi, grots, or wracks.

Wracks do well for their points, but they would still get chewed up by bladestorm + doom. Scatter lasers against wracks is a bad idea as long as raider/venoms are still alive. Wracks are also a bit too slow to hug cover for the entire game. Without fleet wracks have the problem that DA can just hang out between 13-18" shooting wracks in cover.

DE also don't have any psychic defense besides the crucible which is unreliable and easily avoided.

IMO Eldar are the best tooled army for fighting DE.

Tournament list to tournament list you are never going to see grots, pain engines, or wracks anyway because they (suck, are not ravagers, are worse than wyches.) I was just mentioning that in a tailored list the things that DE have to weather mass str 6 are not even good.

In a tournament list, fire dragons are going to be excessive. There will be no pain engines, grots, or incubi to shoot at(I only take incubi against meq, almost never in TAC). A lot of standard Eldar tourny lists have 2-3 squads of fire dragons while DE lists have 0-1 Incubi and nothing else. Fireprisms and missile launchers are also largely wasted against DE. I will take my TAC against Eldar anytime, because in TAC eldar usually have to reduce the mass str6 to be able to handle av12+, Teq yada yada. Its in a tailored list situation that I really hate fighting Eldar as their are no fire prisms, no firedragons, missile launchers, just a HUGE mass of scatter lasers and shurkien cannons and I am left praying to the dice gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:
IMO Eldar are the best tooled army for fighting DE.

Mech guard or Eldar. It really depends

DE excell at making SM look silly

Powerguy, why give the Farseer RoW? DEldar have no psychic powers, so that's a waste of points.

Cerebrium wrote:Powerguy, why give the Farseer RoW? DEldar have no psychic powers, so that's a waste of points.

Maybe because it's an all comers list instead of a tailored to fight DE list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:
In a tournament list, fire dragons are going to be excessive. There will be no pain engines, grots, or incubi to shoot at(I only take incubi against meq, almost never in TAC). A lot of standard Eldar tourny lists have 2-3 squads of fire dragons while DE lists have 0-1 Incubi and nothing else.

Most opponents in a tournament are MEQ, so the 0-1 Incubi while an accurate statement is very likely to be 1 Incubi.

Wracks are a very popular choice usually taken as a cheap troops choice after the haemonculus give another unit such as wytches or incubi a pain token.

schadenfreude wrote:Most opponents in a tournament are MEQ, so the 0-1 Incubi while an accurate statement is very likely to be 1 Incubi.
Wracks are a very popular choice usually taken as a cheap troops choice after the haemonculus give another unit such as wytches or incubi a pain token.

Meq is very common, but Incubi do so poorly against enough things in the game that a lot of players dont include them.
Even if they are great VS meq in 12/15 games they are pretty awful against IG, Orks, and Eldar in the other 3/15 games.

I converted up some wracks and I enjoy taking them. They are fun enough but they are usually the first thing I drop. They dont make up for the lack of speed enough and cant handle tanks like wyches can. If acothysts could take useful wargear it might be different but they are usually the first thing i drop.

I recommend a single autarch. Farseer psychic defense is needed for tac, and guide/doom are great. Also a single autarch still gives a 2+ reserves on turn 3.

As has been said scatter lasers are where it is at v de.

What're people's opinions on Eldrad?

Well my match vs DE finally happened a little later than I thought it would. I tried to de-optimize my list a little by packing in a few EMLs instead of just a sea of scatter lasers.

(all reserve)

Dire Autarch w/Avenger Cat, in the DA unit
Jet 'tarch w/laser lance and fusion gun, in the Guardian Jetbike unit

3 Scatter Walkers
Holo-Falcon, Scatter, chincannon
Holo-Falcon, Scatter

9 Guardian Jetbikes, 3x shuricannons
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/shimmershield and PW
-> Wave Serpent w/EML
10 Storm Guardians, 2x Flamers, Warlock w/destructor
-> Wave Serpent w/EML

2x Vypers, EML, Scatterlaser
Vyper w/Scatter, chincannon
Vyper w/Scatter, chincannon

Basically what happened was that I came in on the bottom of turn 2 (with everything except the Jetbikes and one Falcon), concentrated on the left-hand side of the map. He lost three vehicles and an entire squad of warriors instantly upon my arrival. Turn 3 saw the last of his transports wrecked so his witches and some scary unit with Lilith Hesperax and an Archon were walking. Also, coming in on the far left side meant that a couple of his units were out of position to counterattack.

He unloaded on one of my holo falcons and the DA Serpent, immobilizing and shaking them, respectively. he rolled FNP with his combat drugs *gulp*, but S6 still insta-squishes T3 things no matter what. Lilith Hesperax also got insta-squished by a stray scatter laser shot.

When it was all said and done the DE force was reduced to about four scattered units, two of which were running off the map. Eldar losses totaled just six Jetbikes.

Ouch.... What was his list? That's a pretty tough loss..

loota boy wrote:Ouch.... What was his list? That's a pretty tough loss..

1850 pts btw

Roughly... and I forget some of the names...

3x tri-lance vehicles
Wyches in a transport
Wyches in a transport
Incubi, Hesperax, and an Archon in a transport (the Archon was nicely equipped)

Warriors with a dark lance and some other S8 gun parked in ruins on his objective
Warriors with a dark lance and some other S8 gun parked in his corner of the map

A bunch of Hellions
2x groups of 3 jetbikes w/ heat lance

(Combat drugs giving most of his stuff FNP)

The only casualties I had other than the immobilized Falcon, were those Jetbikes from when the Hellions ran into them. The first round the Hellions won by two or three but I made the morale check. The second round I won by 1 and the Hellions broke and fled.

After the transports were all popped or immobilized I was able to flood the units inside with tank shocks - I was able to force five morale checks with just two shocks. This broke one of the Wych squads and pushed the other one out of cover and away from my objective where it was badly shot up.

My DAs disembarked for only one turn to bladestorm away a unit of jetbikes but other than that I never disembarked. He had two squads of densely clumped Wyches in cover that I was dying to 2x flamer + Disruptor, but I maintained my focus on the objective to assure the win...

It's not that my opponent played a bad game at all, it's just that the S6 shooting that we have is an excellent counter to everything the DE can bring. And the all-reserve strategy with I regularly employ brings a fearsome Alpha strike. And a fearsome Beta strike. After just two rounds the DE were basically ruined. I think if he did make a strategic mistake it was spreading his army too widely across the map during the turns when I was hiding in reserve. That allowed me to come in on the corner and focus on fighting him for a couple turns without being harassed by the Hellions, one squad of bikes, and one transport for at least one extra turn.

My Vypers and Walkers were permitted to stay relatively stationary and crank out around two-hundred S6 shots as he chose to target my Serpents and Falcons. My Vypers alone were responsible for taking out almost all of his vehicles. One one turn as they took down yet another one, my opponent made some sort of comment about "wow, I've never seen Vypers do nearly this well".

I think Eldar are just a really rough match for Dark Eldar. DE excel at killing Space Marines, as my opponent tabled a Black Templar army the previous week in something like four turns. But against Eldar they have a much harder time getting into position and picking their battles. And their lance vehicles, while spectacular against Land Raiders and Rhinos, are far less efficient against a list full of tricksey Eldar vehicles.

Step 1: Get some Scatter lasers
Step 2: Repeat until points limit is reached.

I play DE and Eldar, and from both sides of the board i can tell you that the potential amount of S6 a mechdar player can bring to the table can be absurd.

S6 will tear through Raiders, venoms and ravagers alike, it'll chew up wyches and warriors with ease.

---

It's also my experiance that mass S6 works against... everything, almost.
Packing a mandatory 3 fire dragons units for heavy work enough S6 will tear up most vehicles and infantry.
Outflanking walkers and the speed of wave serpents can get side shots very easily,
In recent games I've even brought down plauge marines and FNP BA termies, just by throwing dice at them.

mercury14 wrote:It's not that my opponent played a bad game at all, it's just that the S6 shooting that we have is an excellent counter to everything the DE can bring. And the all-reserve strategy with I regularly employ brings a fearsome Alpha strike. And a fearsome Beta strike. After just two rounds the DE were basically ruined. I think if he did make a strategic mistake it was spreading his army too widely across the map during the turns when I was hiding in reserve. That allowed me to come in on the corner and focus on fighting him for a couple turns without being harassed by the Hellions, one squad of bikes, and one transport for at least one extra turn.

It's sounds like you deployed like Dark Eldar and he deployed like Eldar. If you reserved everything, he really should've been all the way up-board, ready to assault you as soon as you showed up.

Good job taking him down so decisively!