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I don't think there is any solid reason to change heavy bolters. I don't use them much with my SM, except for scouts, but I use them frequently in my IG army. They're good for the amount they cost. Some of the suggested changes would really need to up the cost.

Since the heavy bolter is really only flawed in infantry squads, I think any fix should focus on that aspect. While sponsons may be overprices for some stuff, they're not bad, just not worth taking.

The problem for infantry isn't the point cost, it's opportunity cost. Even at heavy 4, aside from the domino effect on vehicles and other high volume fire, how good, really is S5 shooting?

Rather than try to make the HB compete head on with other heavy weapons that can take out armor, is to give it something truly different: an assault firing mode. Simply make the HB Heavy 3 36" or Assault 3 18" range. That's elegant and gives the weapon a purpose in IG platoons and tactical squads.

Heavy Bolters are perfectly fine as-is IMO. Buffing them in the units that *could* use a buff (IE: Space Marines with Heavy Bolters) would cause a huge imbalance in other areas (GK and IG, mostly).

It's OK for there to be a weapon that just isn't so hot in a man-portable, crew-served format.



If you want to see Heavy Bolters tearing things up, play DeathWatch. They're incredibly OP in that game.

Polonius wrote:make the HB Heavy 3 36" or Assault 3 18" range. That's elegant and gives the weapon a purpose in IG platoons and tactical squads.

I like this.

CT GAMER wrote:Why not give it "suppression fire": every "six" rolled to hit allows you to take another shot

I'd bump it up to heavy4 as well.

The problem with"exploding dice" though, is that in a wargame involving point costs and such, it would be hard to balance just how many points something like that is worth. For example, let's go with HBs as Heavy 4 since you mentioned that as well. BS4 needs 3, 4, 5, 6 to hit. 1/4th of all the hits will be an extra shot. Now, that extra shot has to hit. What if it rolls a 6 to hit? I know, I know. It's unlikely and starts to get into the realm of crazy luck, but how do you point something that can potentially hit more times than any weapon in the game because you got lucky? I figure it would really overprice the HB. Besides, how would the fluff justify it? "A marine who sees his heavy bolter impact an enemy will often fire more shots in his excitement, but if he misses, he is likely to become sad and stop firing." I mean, I guess there are weapons that fire d6 shots, but I don't know, exploding dice have always bothered me -.-

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, maybe you would explain it more to mean those extra shots can occur only once. But that's all my two cents.

Edit: I too like Polonius' idea.

Polonius wrote:The problem for infantry isn't the point cost, it's opportunity cost. Even at heavy 4, aside from the domino effect on vehicles and other high volume fire, how good, really is S5 shooting?

Very good, unless you're shooting at vehicles.

Melissia wrote:

Polonius wrote:The problem for infantry isn't the point cost, it's opportunity cost. Even at heavy 4, aside from the domino effect on vehicles and other high volume fire, how good, really is S5 shooting?

Very good, unless you're shooting at vehicles.

True, my Eldar are very sad when a few heavy bolters make an appearance.

CrazyThang wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Polonius wrote:The problem for infantry isn't the point cost, it's opportunity cost. Even at heavy 4, aside from the domino effect on vehicles and other high volume fire, how good, really is S5 shooting?

Very good, unless you're shooting at vehicles.

True, my Eldar are very sad when a few heavy bolters make an appearance.

Really?

I mean, for a weapon that's designed to mow down light infantry, it's not even that good at it. At BS3, it takes 2.4 shots to do a wound to T3 4+ save units out of cover, and twice that in cover. Even a fully loaded long fang squad with heavy bolters won't wipe out such a squad out of cover. And wouldn't you rather face five HBs than five MLs?

If any change is nessisary I would give them a on the move fire mode. Fire it from the hip with less accuracy(less shots)

Str5 AP4 Heavy 3 or Assault 2

It would make them completely different from autocannons, more inline with DE splinter cannons(Heavy6 or Assault4) while not making them any more powerful on vehicles.

IMHO they are fine on vehicles. Especilly the twinlinked ones on razorbacks. TL Heavy 4 razorbacks would be too strong.

Polonius wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Polonius wrote:The problem for infantry isn't the point cost, it's opportunity cost. Even at heavy 4, aside from the domino effect on vehicles and other high volume fire, how good, really is S5 shooting?

Very good, unless you're shooting at vehicles.

True, my Eldar are very sad when a few heavy bolters make an appearance.

Really?

I mean, for a weapon that's designed to mow down light infantry, it's not even that good at it. At BS3, it takes 2.4 shots to do a wound to T3 4+ save units out of cover, and twice that in cover. Even a fully loaded long fang squad with heavy bolters won't wipe out such a squad out of cover. And wouldn't you rather face five HBs than five MLs?

My experience with them has largely been SM, so bs4. Not counting all the other weapons in the SM squad, I'm looking at (usually) 2 dead eldar from the HB alone (unless it's scorps, spiders, or reapers I suppose). Pretty good, since most eldar squads max out at 10 and we haven't counted the standard bolters and the possible other special weapon yet. Eldar cannot soak the losses like IG.

But how often do you ever see heavy bolters in tactical squads? I mean, for five points more you can get a plasma cannon, which will kill just as many marines out of cover on average. Why save five points for a lot less functionality.

Making Heavy bolters able to fire on the move makes them a good choice for units that want to move, while still allowing them to use a heavy weapon.

At my FLGS, I tend to see a lot of HBs in various SM squads (usually tactical). So apparently mmmv.

They're free, after all, so if you have your anti-tank elsewhere having your tac squads focus on anti-infantry isn't so bad.

And as amusing as it is, heavy bolters firing on the move just wouldn't work. They'd just become a no-brainer choice for assault units.

Polonius wrote:But how often do you ever see heavy bolters in tactical squads? I mean, for five points more you can get a plasma cannon, which will kill just as many marines out of cover on average. Why save five points for a lot less functionality.

Making Heavy bolters able to fire on the move makes them a good choice for units that want to move, while still allowing them to use a heavy weapon.

which is why I reccomend (heavy3 or assault2). Assault2 and you get a bolter that can always fire twice at +1 strength and massively increased range. Would make them a lot more useful for troops.

Melissia wrote:They're free, after all, so if you have your anti-tank elsewhere having your tac squads focus on anti-infantry isn't so bad.

And as amusing as it is, heavy bolters firing on the move just wouldn't work. They'd just become a no-brainer choice for assault units.

Which would be relevant if any assault units could take heavy bolters. Tactical squads and blob platoons would take them if you plan on using them to play more aggressively, but why is that a bad thing? Sisters would almost always be better off with a heavy flamer, and Chaos Marines would just take a second special weapon.

Exergy wrote:

Polonius wrote:But how often do you ever see heavy bolters in tactical squads? I mean, for five points more you can get a plasma cannon, which will kill just as many marines out of cover on average. Why save five points for a lot less functionality.

Making Heavy bolters able to fire on the move makes them a good choice for units that want to move, while still allowing them to use a heavy weapon.

which is why I reccomend (heavy3 or assault2). Assault2 and you get a bolter that can always fire twice at +1 strength and massively increased range. Would make them a lot more useful for troops.

This actually kills the hope I had for this. I don't know why I didn't see it, but better bolters for your tacs for free? No thanks.

Polonius wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're free, after all, so if you have your anti-tank elsewhere having your tac squads focus on anti-infantry isn't so bad.

And as amusing as it is, heavy bolters firing on the move just wouldn't work. They'd just become a no-brainer choice for assault units.

Which would be relevant if any assault units could take heavy bolters. Tactical squads and blob platoons would take them if you plan on using them to play more aggressively, but why is that a bad thing? Sisters would almost always be better off with a heavy flamer, and Chaos Marines would just take a second special weapon.

Sisters can't HAVE a heavy bolter in their basic squads.

Polonius wrote:But how often do you ever see heavy bolters in tactical squads? I mean, for five points more you can get a plasma cannon, which will kill just as many marines out of cover on average. Why save five points for a lot less functionality.

Making Heavy bolters able to fire on the move makes them a good choice for units that want to move, while still allowing them to use a heavy weapon.

If an ork can run around shooting a big shoota on the move I don't see why a space marine couldnt do same with a h. bolter tbh...

What if you allowed heavy weapons like heavy bolters to fire on the move but at half-range and bs2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrazyThang wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Why not give it "suppression fire": every "six" rolled to hit allows you to take another shot

I'd bump it up to heavy4 as well.

The problem with"exploding dice" though, is that in a wargame involving point costs and such, it would be hard to balance just how many points something like that is worth. For example, let's go with HBs as Heavy 4 since you mentioned that as well. BS4 needs 3, 4, 5, 6 to hit. 1/4th of all the hits will be an extra shot. Now, that extra shot has to hit. What if it rolls a 6 to hit? I know, I know. It's unlikely and starts to get into the realm of crazy luck, but how do you point something that can potentially hit more times than any weapon in the game because you got lucky? I figure it would really overprice the HB. Besides, how would the fluff justify it? "A marine who sees his heavy bolter impact an enemy will often fire more shots in his excitement, but if he misses, he is likely to become sad and stop firing." I mean, I guess there are weapons that fire d6 shots, but I don't know, exploding dice have always bothered me -.-

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, maybe you would explain it more to mean those extra shots can occur only once. But that's all my two cents.

Edit: I too like Polonius' idea.

No you read it right. I like a little randomness.

Given that a punisher can shoot twenty times I didn't think that a heavy bolter potentially getting a few extra shots is all that insane really...

I know nothing of punishers. Hmmm.

I'm guessing the stats are nowhere near heavy bolter stats though.

CT GAMER wrote:If an ork can run around shooting a big shoota on the move I don't see why a space marine couldnt do same with a h. bolter tbh...

Because Marines like to aim.

For an Ork, it doesn't matter if he shoots on the move because he's not aiming to begin with.

Making the HB Pinning and Heavy 4 would make them...very powerful. Far more than they should be without universally recosting them. One needs to keep in perspective the number of platforms these weapons are on. Don't just think of SM tac squads with one heavy weapon, think those ridiculous Baal preds or Leman Russ tanks mounting 3 of them, Vendettas able to get two for 10pts, etc.

The HB's problem isn't its ROF, it's the fact that against heavy infantry, it's not exactly effective as GW went out of their way to ensure that in the switchover from 2E to 3E, and with the prevalence of widespread 4+ cover saves it's effectiveness against lighter infantry, especially horde infantry, is almost never optimal.

CrazyThang wrote:I know nothing of punishers. Hmmm.

I'm guessing the stats are nowhere near heavy bolter stats though.

R24", S5 AP- Heavy 20.

It can get pretty nasty in the right situation, but it's overpriced and too short ranged for what it does.

I love how this thread boomed with so many different ideas and discussions. I Think the HB has to remain Heavy, no matter what.

Melissia wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:I know nothing of punishers. Hmmm.

I'm guessing the stats are nowhere near heavy bolter stats though.

R24", S5 AP- Heavy 20.

It can get pretty nasty in the right situation, but it's overpriced and too short ranged for what it does.

Not sure I totally agree wih that assessment. With a threat range of 25-30" it rarely doesnt have targets since 40K is so focused on getting up close personal alot of the time.

What it does is punish any lightly armoured hordes that dare to try to engage your army or objectives you hold...

So does the normal LRBT, and it does it for thirty points cheaper.

Melissia wrote:So does the normal LRBT, and it does it for thirty points cheaper.

And one bad scatter roll and you've got nothing to show for it.

Twenty shots means you pretty much always gonna get some hits and wounds...

CT GAMER wrote:

Melissia wrote:So does the normal LRBT, and it does it for thirty points cheaper.

And one bad scatter roll and you've got nothing to show for it.

Twenty shots means you pretty much always gonna get some hits and wounds...

The BC however is also much more of a threat to heavy infantry, can take on anything but AV14, and can hit anything on a board if it can see it, and it's not like the LRBT can't take triple heavy bolters and a stubber either, costing as much as a base, unupgraded LR punisher with BC, 3xHB and a stubber.

Honestly, I'd remake the heavy bolter so it was more of a machine gun. I mean, as mentioned, the heavy bolter is an automatic cannon that fires a slightly smaller round slightly faster. That's not a machine gun.

I'd switch it's profile to S4 AP5 Heavy 6 36".

Ailaros wrote:Honestly, I'd remake the heavy bolter so it was more of a machine gun. I mean, as mentioned, the heavy bolter is an automatic cannon that fires a slightly smaller round slightly faster. That's not a machine gun.

I'd switch it's profile to S4 AP5 Heavy 6 36".

I would love that for russes (poor armor save +5 people!) although then hurricane bolters would be out of a job! (in situation where you can take them as an option which is.....twice and they dont replace HB so I suppose my argument is a bit invalid)

CrazyThang wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Polonius wrote:But how often do you ever see heavy bolters in tactical squads? I mean, for five points more you can get a plasma cannon, which will kill just as many marines out of cover on average. Why save five points for a lot less functionality.

Making Heavy bolters able to fire on the move makes them a good choice for units that want to move, while still allowing them to use a heavy weapon.

which is why I reccomend (heavy3 or assault2). Assault2 and you get a bolter that can always fire twice at +1 strength and massively increased range. Would make them a lot more useful for troops.

This actually kills the hope I had for this. I don't know why I didn't see it, but better bolters for your tacs for free? No thanks.

Giving them HB Assault 2 or Heavy 3 would not be right. Ever heard of noise marines with blastmasters? They have an assault 3 pinning HB or Heavy 1 small blast BC, but then agian you can only have 1 per squad and that one gun is 40 points (as much as a termie)

IMO if you make it Heavy 4, you would have to make the AC (assualt cannon) Heavy 6 in order to keep a sense of ROF among weapons.