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purplefood wrote:Almost Space Marines? Try again...

He might be referring to abhumans or the clone trooper experiments.

Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

purplefood wrote:Almost Space Marines? Try again...

Cadians : "Because of this, the Cadians are widely regarded as the best troops in the Imperium, short of the Space Marines themselves"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

Elysians are the airborne of the IG. You don't have to be a Ranger to be Airborne.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:Almost Space Marines? Try again...

Cadians : "Because of this, the Cadians are widely regarded as the best troops in the Imperium, short of the Space Marines themselves"

Short being the operative word.
Space Marines have a plethora of genetic enhancements and improved training. Not to mention better equipment and squad/company level leadership. Cadians really aren't anywhere close, though they are better than the average Guard regiment...

Well, Space Marines are canonically stated to each be the rough equal of twelve average Guardsmen. Depending on the degree of variance in quality, there could very well be Guardsmen worth twelve average Guardsmen, and thus equal or better than Space Marines. Then there's the matter of armor; I'd certainly say that the commander of a Baneblade is worth a whole lot more than a Marine on the battlefield, for instance...

A single Space Marine is equal to 12 gardsmen.
That number begins to increase more and more when you expand it...
A tactical squad is equal to more than 120 Guardsmen.
A company is equal to more than 1,200 Guardsmen.
A chapter is equal to more than 12,000 Guardsmen.
This is because their leadership and tactics are much better than IG leadership and tactics are, though it is possible to level the playing field with tanks and artillery as well as void/air support.

There's no indication that they're at all competent on a tactical or strategic level, not least of which because their main use is as shock troops used as blunt instruments to bash a hole in the largest concentration of resistance they can find. I dare say the Guard scale more exponentially than Space Marines, as the more Guard there are the greater the availability of special weapons and supporting vehicles, while Space Marines are optimized to be used at their "too few to make the lightest dent in anything" configuration, and just sort of repeat that the more there are present.

MountainSquid wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

Elysians are the airborne of the IG. You don't have to be a Ranger to be Airborne.

No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MountainSquid wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

Elysians are the airborne of the IG. You don't have to be a Ranger to be Airborne.

No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

Yep. The Elysians, much like the US Rangers or the British Special Air Service, can operate as air mobile infantry or 'paratroopers' as necessary.

I suppose rangers was a bad comparison, but I was going for that strata of troop quality, not quite special forces, not quite standard line troops

purplefood wrote:
Short being the operative word.
Space Marines have a plethora of genetic enhancements and improved training. Not to mention better equipment and squad/company level leadership. Cadians really aren't anywhere close, though they are better than the average Guard regiment...

That's ok, but anywhere close?
They survived 13 Black Crusades.
They are deploying their troops all across the galaxy.
They are trained to be a solder from the age of 1.
Their Kasrkins are elites in Stormtroopers, they also have minor genetic enchantments so we may say that they are the closest thing ordinary man can be toward Space Marine.
Their Leader is Creed, one of the most brilliant tacticians ever in Warhammer 40k.

They are not even close when it comes to reflexes and training of an Astartes, but they are the closest thing to them in terms of Human beings.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Short being the operative word.
Space Marines have a plethora of genetic enhancements and improved training. Not to mention better equipment and squad/company level leadership. Cadians really aren't anywhere close, though they are better than the average Guard regiment...

That's ok, but anywhere close?
They survived 13 Black Crusades.
They are deploying their troops all across the galaxy.
They are trained to be a solder from the age of 1.
Their Kasrkins are elites in Stormtroopers, they also have minor genetic enchantments so we may say that they are the closest thing ordinary man can be toward Space Marine.
Their Leader is Creed, one of the most brilliant tacticians ever in Warhammer 40k.

They are not even close when it comes to reflexes and training of an Astartes, but they are the closest thing to them in terms of Human beings.

Not to sound like creed fanboy, but it has to be said Creed is probably THE most brilliant tactician, correct me if I'm wrong

Solar was better than Creed ( after all how many worlds did he conquer for the Imperium? )

But that is the past, for now it is Creed.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

US Army airborne and air cav are not automatically Rangers. The Elysians are more analogous to the first two than the Rangers.

For those of you who saw Band of Brothers, the paratroopers in Easy Company are elite troopers, but not Rangers. Just like the Elysians are elite troopers, but are not analogous to Rangers. They are people who can dismount from aircraft (or jump out) very quickly. Some might have training that makes them analogous to being rangers(Stormtooper/grenadier training), but that is in addition to airborne training.

MountainSquid wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

US Army airborne and air cav are not automatically Rangers. The Elysians are more analogous to the first two than the Rangers.

For those of you who saw Band of Brothers, the paratroopers in Easy Company are elite troopers, but not Rangers. Just like the Elysians are elite troopers, but are not analogous to Rangers. They are people who can dismount from aircraft (or jump out) very quickly. Some might have training that makes them analogous to being rangers(Stormtooper/grenadier training), but that is in addition to airborne training.

so maybe Airborne is a better comparison for IG in general when comparing them to PDF?

Wardragoon wrote:so maybe Airborne is a better comparison for IG in general when comparing them to PDF?

Nah, what has already been said is a better comparison: The PDFs are the National Guard/reserves/gendarmeries that are usually(but not always) not as well trained or equipped as the regular army(IG). As has been pointed out though, some PDFs are better than some IG regiments.

But these are the rare exceptions.

Melissia wrote:But these are the rare exceptions.

Yes.

Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

No, the comm beads are as standard a piece of their equipment as the lasgun.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

That specifically mentions combat experience, with the farcical claim that every world is constantly beset by all manner of external threats, because GRIMDARK, which is outright contradicted by both common sense and more detailed fluff.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

No, the comm beads are as standard a piece of their equipment as the lasgun.

Interesting. It'd be good to see where that came from. I can only remember comm beads being standard in the Gaunt's Ghosts books and Caiphas Cain. No mention of them in other fluff, and only Cain implies that they are regarded as standard, and only for squads, not for every soldier.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

That specifically mentions combat experience, with the farcical claim that every world is constantly beset by all manner of external threats, because GRIMDARK, which is outright contradicted by both common sense and more detailed fluff.

It would also be farcical to claim that every, or even most, IG regiments all have extensive combat experience. Just because they were shipped off-world doesn't turn them into campaign winning veterans. A lot end up on garrison duty, part of Sector Fleet patrols (which may or may not see combat) or sometimes mop up duty in the wake of Astarte operations. And even if the regiment is thrown headfirst into a hellish warzone, they often don't come out intact.

This idea that IG reigments are 'L337' compared to PDF, to the extent that people are comparing a Hive World's PDF to the US National Guard 'Weekend Soldiers', is unfounded. It's a shame a lot of BL authors paint an unflaterring picture of PDF's. Look at Henry Zhou's work for PDF's doing much better.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

No, the comm beads are as standard a piece of their equipment as the lasgun.

Interesting. It'd be good to see where that came from. I can only remember comm beads being standard in the Gaunt's Ghosts books and Caiphas Cain. No mention of them in other fluff, and only Cain implies that they are regarded as standard, and only for squads, not for every soldier.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

That specifically mentions combat experience, with the farcical claim that every world is constantly beset by all manner of external threats, because GRIMDARK, which is outright contradicted by both common sense and more detailed fluff.

It would also be farcical to claim that every, or even most, IG regiments all have extensive combat experience. Just because they were shipped off-world doesn't turn them into campaign winning veterans. A lot end up on garrison duty, part of Sector Fleet patrols (which may or may not see combat) or sometimes mop up duty in the wake of Astarte operations. And even if the regiment is thrown headfirst into a hellish warzone, they often don't come out intact.

This idea that IG reigments are 'L337' compared to PDF, to the extent that people are comparing a Hive World's PDF to the US National Guard 'Weekend Soldiers', is unfounded. It's a shame a lot of BL authors paint an unflaterring picture of PDF's. Look at Henry Zhou's work for PDF's doing much better.

In the Ghost's novels Abnett reffers to all the regements using combeads

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

For me the evidence is to the opposite. The IG codex that addresses it talked about how some regimants had advanced micro-beads and other bulky WWII-style walkie-talkies. I don't think commbeads are standard.

Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

Rogerio134 wrote:Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

See, thats what makes me think that IG are about like Ranger's in troop quality, since Storm Troopers are pretty much the Delta or Green Beret of the Imperium