Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fafnir wrote:Falchions are hardly overpowered, even with +2 attacks. Lightning claws are better, and they come for free on SM Terminators.

Sure, a Paladin Squad with a Librarian will be absolutely devestating on the charge. But you have to remember the costs associated with that, as well as the method of delivery. The Librarian and even just 5 Paladins are going to take up a massive portion of any list, and if you actually want to get the charge, you're looking at the additional cost of a Land Raider as well. At that point, you're easily crossing into 700-800 points for 6 men and a transport.

Lightning claws are strength/initiative 4, or 5 with furious charge at best. The falchions can go up to 6 attacks, strength 6, initiative 10 and 2d6 armor pen. Yes its outrageously expensive, but that's because it should be for that power level. Re-rolling misses/wounds is nowhere near that powerful, and the paladins can do that with master crafting anyways.

Keep in mind that paladins can still carry relentless psycannons with their cc weapons, and the librarian can have servo skulls and powers like sanctuary and shrouding as well. Now I have a 13 wound monstrous creature with 8 psycannon/8 stormbolter shots, 2+ armor, stealth and forces enemies to take difficult/dangerous terrain tests to assault it.

Yes, they would cost a combined total of 570 points without a transport, but I think it's justified for that level of power.

I would run that set up in games over 2000 points without a moment's hesitation because it forces the enemy to deal with it immediately or risk losing everything to 1 unit. Just deep striking them in the right spot could be enough to win you the game when the enemy is force to spend a turn running away or ignoring everything else to focus fire that 1 unit down.

Omegus wrote:Why, exactly, would the falchions grant you +2 attacks? You are getting an extra attack for having two force weapons instead of just one, what else do you want?

Soon as I saw your post I thought "Stop Speaking."

Off Topic: Just like to say to all the people who went completely off topic by arguing the rule, it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt, RAW is 2+A. RAI is subjective, and therefore the FAQ is Subjective. Gwar! would turn in his grave at some of you.

On Topic: I would definitely run 10 purifiers with 4x psycan 6x falch, it would be pwnsauce.

Bruteboss wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Falchions are hardly overpowered, even with +2 attacks. Lightning claws are better, and they come for free on SM Terminators.

Sure, a Paladin Squad with a Librarian will be absolutely devestating on the charge. But you have to remember the costs associated with that, as well as the method of delivery. The Librarian and even just 5 Paladins are going to take up a massive portion of any list, and if you actually want to get the charge, you're looking at the additional cost of a Land Raider as well. At that point, you're easily crossing into 700-800 points for 6 men and a transport.

Lightning claws are strength/initiative 4, or 5 with furious charge at best. The falchions can go up to 6 attacks, strength 6, initiative 10 and 2d6 armor pen. Yes its outrageously expensive, but that's because it should be for that power level. Re-rolling misses/wounds is nowhere near that powerful, and the paladins can do that with master crafting anyways.

Keep in mind that paladins can still carry relentless psycannons with their cc weapons, and the librarian can have servo skulls and powers like sanctuary and shrouding as well. Now I have a 13 wound monstrous creature with 8 psycannon/8 stormbolter shots, 2+ armor, stealth and forces enemies to take difficult/dangerous terrain tests to assault it.

Yes, they would cost a combined total of 570 points without a transport, but I think it's justified for that level of power.

I would run that set up in games over 2000 points without a moment's hesitation because it forces the enemy to deal with it immediately or risk losing everything to 1 unit. Just deep striking them in the right spot could be enough to win you the game when the enemy is force to spend a turn running away or ignoring everything else to focus fire that 1 unit down.

GK with lightning claws would also be able to go up to to 6 attacks, strength 6, initiative 10 and 2d6 armor pen. Lighting claws on GK units would be completely broken, especially WS5 Paladins. My guess is that during playtesting they found that WS5 Paladins with S5 from hammerhand were completely out of control once given rerolls to wound from lclaws, so they decided to give them +2 attacks instead as a way to tone down paladins.

schadenfreude wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Falchions are hardly overpowered, even with +2 attacks. Lightning claws are better, and they come for free on SM Terminators.

Sure, a Paladin Squad with a Librarian will be absolutely devestating on the charge. But you have to remember the costs associated with that, as well as the method of delivery. The Librarian and even just 5 Paladins are going to take up a massive portion of any list, and if you actually want to get the charge, you're looking at the additional cost of a Land Raider as well. At that point, you're easily crossing into 700-800 points for 6 men and a transport.

Lightning claws are strength/initiative 4, or 5 with furious charge at best. The falchions can go up to 6 attacks, strength 6, initiative 10 and 2d6 armor pen. Yes its outrageously expensive, but that's because it should be for that power level. Re-rolling misses/wounds is nowhere near that powerful, and the paladins can do that with master crafting anyways.

Keep in mind that paladins can still carry relentless psycannons with their cc weapons, and the librarian can have servo skulls and powers like sanctuary and shrouding as well. Now I have a 13 wound monstrous creature with 8 psycannon/8 stormbolter shots, 2+ armor, stealth and forces enemies to take difficult/dangerous terrain tests to assault it.

Yes, they would cost a combined total of 570 points without a transport, but I think it's justified for that level of power.

I would run that set up in games over 2000 points without a moment's hesitation because it forces the enemy to deal with it immediately or risk losing everything to 1 unit. Just deep striking them in the right spot could be enough to win you the game when the enemy is force to spend a turn running away or ignoring everything else to focus fire that 1 unit down.

GK with lightning claws would also be able to go up to to 6 attacks, strength 6, initiative 10 and 2d6 armor pen. Lighting claws on GK units would be completely broken, especially WS5 Paladins. My guess is that during playtesting they found that WS5 Paladins with S5 from hammerhand were completely out of control once given rerolls to wound from lclaws, so they decided to give them +2 attacks instead as a way to tone down paladins.

Sadly, incorrect. Falchions were made to give more attacks so they could be rolled for at the same time with NF Swords, and, when the situation allows, NF Halberds.

Jaon wrote:
Off Topic: Just like to say to all the people who went completely off topic by arguing the rule, it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt, RAW is 2+A. RAI is subjective, and therefore the FAQ is Subjective. Gwar! would turn in his grave at some of you.

If it was that clear cut you would see a lot more GK lists with falchions, as some simple math proves how powerful +2 attacks/model really is. Personally, I'm not touching falchions in my army until I see an FAQ confirm the +2 attacks, as I seriously doubt my opponents will think the RAW are as clear cut on the issue as you seem to think. Especially once they see a paladin unit like I mentioned above in action.

Jaon wrote:

Omegus wrote:Why, exactly, would the falchions grant you +2 attacks? You are getting an extra attack for having two force weapons instead of just one, what else do you want?

Soon as I saw your post I thought "Stop Speaking."

Off Topic: Just like to say to all the people who went completely off topic by arguing the rule, it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt, RAW is 2+A. RAI is subjective, and therefore the FAQ is Subjective. Gwar! would turn in his grave at some of you.

Well, Joan, it's a good thing that what you think others should do is completely irrelevant.

And if there really was no shadow of a doubt, there wouldn't be 20+ page threads about it that keep getting locked. I look forward to the day GW finally releases the document that tells you to go FAQ yourself.

Provided you can get the Paladins/Purifiers to S6 they technically can get a re-roll to wound (Hammer of Righteousness)

Food for thought.

L. Wrex

youbedead wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Falchions are hardly overpowered, even with +2 attacks. Lightning claws are better, and they come for free on SM Terminators.

Sure, a Paladin Squad with a Librarian will be absolutely devestating on the charge. But you have to remember the costs associated with that, as well as the method of delivery. The Librarian and even just 5 Paladins are going to take up a massive portion of any list, and if you actually want to get the charge, you're looking at the additional cost of a Land Raider as well. At that point, you're easily crossing into 700-800 points for 6 men and a transport.

Its proably better to just use DCA instead they're still slaughtering what ever they hit and at a third of the cost

More like a fourth if you include Falchions. And absolutely true. If I were playing competetively, I'd take 20 DCA over 5 Paladins anyday.

I prefer the I6! if you put 10 teminators or purifiers against each other, 1 unit all falchions , 1 unit all halberds who woud win CC?

10 purifiers, we will assume no charge and no shooting, no pcannons.

20 attacks, 10 hits, if you get hammerhand 6-7 wounds, 5 without.

Versus 20 attacks from 5 falchion purifiers, or only 13 without.

So we see that with no charge, we expect halberds to have a slight advantage over falchions as long as hammerhand goes off, but not such a huge advantage that means +2 attack falchions have no chance. 26 versus 29 points also is pretty close.

Moral of the story is that purifiers get halberds for cheaper, and when fighting against other purifiers halberds are pretty much the ideal weapon situation. Also note that purifing flame is superior to hammerhand on purifiers with falchions... kills 1-2 of the falchions before they swing, which really helps swing the combat if they were going for hammerhand.

Termies on the other hand are very different. Analyzing the mirror match is kinda pointless, as the sword also plays an important role, as does wound allocation, as do shooting weapons as they dont take away cc attacks. So you shouldnt really see 5 falchion termies versus 5 halberd termies.

As a final note on falchions versus halberds, the real answer as others said is DCA. WS5, I6, 2(3)A, Invuln save. In CC GK mirrors they are so much more point efficient than purifiers its not funny.

So on to the OP. If falchions are +2 attacks then I will use them whenever possible on paladins, when I run them. If they are +1 attack they are not worth it to me at all, and as a result I probably wont run paladins.

Falchions with +2 attacks are never worth it for me on purifiers/strikes. First, I will always have pcannons, which introduce regular wounds at init4, so to avoid wound allocation from stealing kills on cc purifiers I will stick with init 6 halberds and init 1 hammers. For strikes I would only use min/max squads, so spending so many point on cc upgrades is worthless (besides 1-2 hammers for vehicles)

But... all my Paladins are already modeled with halberds :(