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kenshin620 wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:Sooo.... basicly if I give my space marine captian melta bombs, than join him with a tactical squad.... the tactical squad also get melta bombs?

No, only the captain has melta bombs

Right. My question was not if every model in the unit had Defensive Grenades; my question was if one model having Defensive Grenades was enough to cause the entire attacking unit to lose their charge bonus.

Lolcanoe wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 49, ICs are treated as separate units when resolving attacks.

resolving not assaulting

"Models assaulting units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault bonus attack." pg 36, emphasis mine

Models assaulting UNITS, not, Models assaulting models.

Typhus attached to some Beserkers is a UNIT equipped with Defensive grenades.

The unit is not divided until you go to the resolve combats stage, after the WHOLE UNIT has been assaulted, in which the defensive grenades have already been deployed, because the UNIT was assaulted.

I already told him that, you just summed it up better than I did. Kudos.

So when you resolve attacks individual models no longer count as assaulting?

Wrong. At the point you are resolving attacks models are still assaulting (otherwise you would lose furious charge, for example) and, at this point the IC is a separate unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong. At the point you are resolving attacks models are still assaulting (otherwise you would lose furious charge, for example) and, at this point the IC is a separate unit.

After the assault moves have been made, the IC is a separate unit when resolving attacks. When you resolve attacks, you are not assaulting, you are attacking, which happens after you assault.

Lolcanoe - yet you are still an model who is assaulting - otherwise you would not have any benefits from charging, such as FC and the extra attack

You are stil in the act of assaulting when resolving attacks

You are not in the act of assaulting when you resolve attacks. You are attacking. You have to assault before you can attack. FC still works because it tells you they gain the benefits in the TURN they assaulted.

Yet ytou are, still, assaulting. The entire turn you make an assault move you ARE an assaulting unit / model.

This is simple English here....

Right, and if you are assaulting a unit (I've never heard of assaulting a model), you lose your bonus attacks if the defending unit has defensive grenades, including when an IC is attached to the unit, as the IC is part of the unit.

You seriously need to swallow that pride, or choke on it, and give up. Just because you feel it is one way, doesn't make it the correct way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet ytou are, still, assaulting. The entire turn you make an assault move you ARE an assaulting unit / model.

This is simple English here....

It may be simple English, but the assault phase is subdivided into three different steps, and the IC is only treated as a separate unit during a brief period during one single of those sub-steps. And the wording for Defensive Grenades is "...assaulting against a unit with defensive grenades...", so it is not checked during the process of resolving the assault, but during the process of moving the assaulting unit.

Shadelkan - ah for productive posts.

Mah - no subdivision is going on; the model IS still assaulting at this point.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/254148.page

kenshin620 wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:Sooo.... basicly if I give my space marine captian melta bombs, than join him with a tactical squad.... the tactical squad also get melta bombs?

No, only the captain has melta bombs

If you were to believe others in the thread, if one model in a unit is equipped with something, the entire unit is.

Dark Eldar have a grenade launcher that specifies that the model *and the squad he joins* count as having assault/defensive grenades. Barring something like that, I don't see how the entire unit can benefit from a single model's wargear.

bushido wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:Sooo.... basicly if I give my space marine captian melta bombs, than join him with a tactical squad.... the tactical squad also get melta bombs?

No, only the captain has melta bombs

If you were to believe others in the thread, if one model in a unit is equipped with something, the entire unit is.

Dark Eldar have a grenade launcher that specifies that the model *and the squad he joins* count as having assault/defensive grenades. Barring something like that, I don't see how the entire unit can benefit from a single model's wargear.

Because offensive grenades specifically state that only models equipped with them can make use of them whereas defensive grenades effect the enemy unit.

No, they affect the enemy models, not the entire unit

youbedead wrote:

bushido wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:Sooo.... basicly if I give my space marine captian melta bombs, than join him with a tactical squad.... the tactical squad also get melta bombs?

No, only the captain has melta bombs

If you were to believe others in the thread, if one model in a unit is equipped with something, the entire unit is.

Dark Eldar have a grenade launcher that specifies that the model *and the squad he joins* count as having assault/defensive grenades. Barring something like that, I don't see how the entire unit can benefit from a single model's wargear.

Because offensive grenades specifically state that only models equipped with them can make use of them whereas defensive grenades effect the enemy unit.

Defensive grenades effect enemy *models* assaulting *units* equipped with them. If a single model in a unit is equipped with a piece of wargear, how can you honestly consider the *entire* unit to be equipped with that wargear?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lolcanoe - yet you are still an model who is assaulting - otherwise you would not have any benefits from charging, such as FC and the extra attack

You are stil in the act of assaulting when resolving attacks

That doesn't change anything. You are still assaulting the entire Unit (for ease let's use capital u) consisting of some unit plus IC. They are treated as one unit you targeted for an assault. What happens later during that assault is irrelevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:[...]
Mah - no subdivision is going on; the model IS still assaulting at this point.

Yes. Again, the model is assaulting Unit which is created from IC and some unit. Model can't direct it's attacks towards anything else than IC - which is considered a separate unit while directing attacks.
That doesn't change the fact that the target of assault is Unit -> IC + unit. Target of assault and target of attacks are separate things.

Macok wrote:
Yes. Again, the model is assaulting Unit which is created from IC and some unit. Model can't direct it's attacks towards anything else than IC - which is considered a separate unit while directing attacks.
That doesn't change the fact that the target of assault is Unit -> IC + unit. Target of assault and target of attacks are separate things.

If the target of the assault is the unit, and the unit doesn't have defensive grenades (only the IC does), then the assaulting models wouldn't be effected at all.

You can't really have it both ways.

bushido wrote:If the target of the assault is the unit, and the unit doesn't have defensive grenades (only the IC does), then the assaulting models wouldn't be effected at all.

You can't really have it both ways.

What? IC is the part of the unit when making the assault. This is covered by the IC joining unit rules. Do you have ANY rules stating otherwise? BRB references have been given in this thread already. If you don't have rules stating anything different I'm afraid I "can have it both ways" because rules tell me so.

Yes, and we're back to: if one model in a unit has a power weapon, every model in the unit gets to ignore armor saves?

For a "unit" to have something every model in the unit has to have it. Exceptions being special rules that are granted (or lost) by characters joining, and wargear like the Phantasm Grenade Launcher (that specifically says it grants an ability to the entire unit).

bushido wrote:Yes, and we're back to: if one model in a unit has a power weapon, every model in the unit gets to ignore armor saves?

For a "unit" to have something every model in the unit has to have it. Exceptions being special rules that are granted (or lost) by characters joining, and wargear like the Phantasm Grenade Launcher (that specifically says it grants an ability to the entire unit).

No. Not every model gets to ignore armour saves because rules describing attacks state how that part is resolved. Attacks are made by MODELS not units.

Yes, the unit does have grenades. Not every model has to have something for unit to have it. The distinction again is: not every model has, unit as a whole has.

Again, this is NOTHING like your PW example because it's unit vs model thing.

bushido wrote: If a single model in a unit is equipped with a piece of wargear, how can you honestly consider the *entire* unit to be equipped with that wargear?

For the third time - the question wasn't that everyone was equipped with them. The question is is one model being equipped with them enough to affect the aassaulting unit. Much like it was ruled for GK:

Games Workshop Grey Knights FAQ wrote:Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad,
psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects
to work or is just one model being equiped with them
enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

puma713 wrote:
For the third time - the question wasn't that everyone was equipped with them. The question is is one model being equipped with them enough to affect the assaulting unit. Much like it was ruled for GK:

The GK grenades say they effect entire units. Defensive grenades say they effect models.


Best guess for defensive grenades would be: only those models eligible to attack the IC (or intending to attack him) would be effected.

Alternately, you can say that the GK ruling only effects those specific grenades, since that's all that was mentioned.

Are you really this stupid Bushido? Seriously? You've ever heard of logical fallacies?

How does this have anything to do with every model in a unit benefiting from EVERY wargear in a single model. Obviously that doesn't work, but that isn't the case for defensive grenades.

@Puma, do us a favor and just make it clear that a squad with an IC with defensive grenades has defensive grenades as a whole. The points are clear, the arguments are solid, you just have two stubborn who can't accept it.

If I'm not mistaken, once a unit assaults and gets hit by a defensive grenade, they lose assault bonuses for the entire turn against anyone they're fighting or shooting (the shooting part being redundant since they assault before being hit by a defensive grenade. One doesn't simply get flashbanged and can't see the person who threw the flash but can see everyone else. Who ever they assaulted and any IC within base contact or has its unit within base contact do not get assault bonuses against them.

Shadelkan wrote:... you just have two stubborn who can't accept it.

Completely inappropriate, but there are more than 2 since I agree with Nos

The other GK grenades are worded differently than defensive grenades, it is dangerous to extrapolate from the ruling on other grenades to defensive grenades in general.

I am still unsure why the unit the IC is attached to counts as having defensive grenades. A single model in the unit has them and that model counts as a separate unit for the purposes of resolving attacks...which is when you determine how many attacks each model makes and who they swing at.

That said, I think it is confusing enough I would probably give it to my opponent if they were insistent for the sake of continuing the game.

bushido wrote:

puma713 wrote:
For the third time - the question wasn't that everyone was equipped with them. The question is is one model being equipped with them enough to affect the assaulting unit. Much like it was ruled for GK:

The GK grenades say they effect entire units. Defensive grenades say they effect models.


Best guess for defensive grenades would be: only those models eligible to attack the IC (or intending to attack him) would be effected.

Alternately, you can say that the GK ruling only effects those specific grenades, since that's all that was mentioned.

No, this isn't the best guess. That's your guess and it's not what the rules say.
So what that defensive grenades effect models? Seriously.. So what? They affect EVERY MODEL ASSAULTING UNIT which have defensive grenades. The unit has grenades because one model has grenades. The model that is CONSIDERED part of the ASSAULTED unit.
You don't assault unit AND IC. You assault unit which contains model with defensive grenades. This isn't multi-assault. If you have assault range to IC only the assault isn't failed.
The IC is the part of the unit. You can't just separate them for determining who you assault. They are one and one unit only. How many times do we have to write that over and over and over again. There are references to BRB rules that say so. You still put fingers in your ears and say something completely different without backing it up by ANY rule whatsoever.

calypso2ts wrote:
I am still unsure why the unit the IC is attached to counts as having defensive grenades.

Why do people keep saying this? This hasn't been stated as a part of the question, nor a part of any of the examples. Why do people keep assuming that the unit somehow magically gets more wargear? They don't. This is a question of how the rules are stated and if one model in the unit having a piece of wargear, does it affect the entire assaulting unit. This has nothing to do with others having defensive grenades.

puma713 wrote:
Why do people keep saying this? This hasn't been stated as a part of the question, nor a part of any of the examples. Why do people keep assuming that the unit somehow magically gets more wargear? They don't. This is a question of how the rules are stated and if one model in the unit having a piece of wargear, does it affect the entire assaulting unit. This has nothing to do with others having defensive grenades.

Since we are being nitpicky about this, I am unsure if a single model being equipped with grenades means the whole unit benefits from the effect. Is that a better more precise magical way to say it, because for this specific example the statements are functionally identical.

Gwar! wrote:

Rhy3kk3 wrote:Okay, here is the situation we didn't know how to deal with on our last game:

A Sorcerer of Chaos was part of a Plaguemarine unit and was charged by some pesky Genestealers and was in base contact with one of them and one other chose to attack him.
Does he, being part of the Plaguemarine unit, receive the benefits of the Blight Grenades?

Yes, as he is part of the unit when joined to it, and Defensive grenades state "Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades". Note this is the inverse of the situation of Offensive Grenades, where only the models equipped with them may benefit, due to the wording being "Models equipped with assault grenades", rather than Units as in the case of Defensive grenades.

Am i the only one that sees this as the answer to this problem? Defensive grenades benifit the entire UNIT, and at the time of them being charged the IC is part of the UNIT.

That's pretty much it, voryn15. If you assault against a unit with defensive grenades, you do not gain +1 attack from assaulting. And that applies regardless what unit you attack, in case of a multi-assault for example, even if not all units have defensive grenades.
It's a debuff on the assaulting unit, while the assault grenades are a buff on the assaulting unit. So to speak.