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I have about an 80-90% knowledge of the entire rulebook and nasty units in each Codex. For example, I know to be wary of the Hail of Doom arrow for Wood Elves.
Statistics I can memorize quickly. Most things I can generalize into groups (E.g., basic Imperial guard are BS 3, whereas the elites are BS4. That generally works.)
From playing DE, you just kind of eventually have to know what most everything does, at least the basics.

Only 2 people know all the rules.

And they are not allowed to travel in the same aircraft, nor at the same time.

Grenat wrote:We learn new things each game, checking in the rules book or in a codex
Life is about learning, after all o/

This.

Just this past Saturday, we used a large piece of dangerous terrain (rare for us). Moving, running, and assaulting (unit was fleet) through the dangerous terrain caused three dangerous terrain test for each model in that unit. Huh. I had no idea.

Our group knows the general rules pretty well. We've all read through our own codexes many times are are quite familiar with the units. Although, there are times where we have to check a Tyranids strength or the number of attacks a particular special character has.

It's when something new or rare pops up that we pause the game and try to figure it out.

My old group was really hot on knowing their rules, so while I am usually one of the most rules savy people in the conversation, I was by no means the best. They had it all down pat.
When I started our Uni club though, jesus. There were some players who I had to tell the numbers to every single turn. I guess some people have a difficulty with numbers or something. but it bugged the crap out of me.

I also have one of those friends who is REALLY bad for remembering rules, worst thing though, when he starts to lose or you doing something particularly damaging you have to prove to him you can do it and find the rule. This only gets worse with more cider the later it gets.

I'll be honest, I'm bad for the rules, but then I have problems with GW's rules anyway. For example, If a unit has been boxed in, and then gets tank-shocked, It should be an automatic death or glory... alas, I did not write the rules.

This also has to do with the fact that I don't get many chances to play, and when I do, I always pick a different army, so I never have a chance to cement anything. On the upside I do as much back-checking into the relevant rulebooks before I make ridiculous claims, and I am usually partially right (because I have misremembered two rules, mixed them up, etc.).

To be honest though, there have been more instances in which I pulled something out of my ass, then realized I was cheating, but then cross-referenced the book and it turns out I actually had been quite right in what I'd done.....

Know all the rules? I don't even own all the rules. I don't even own half the rules.

It used to be that when you bought 40k you bought a complete game (RT, 2nd ed). Nowadays having to also buy a dozen+ Codex books just to have a clue what's going on, is just another example of the barefaced shameless money-spinning, otherwise known as business as usual at GW.

On topic: I do think the rules are harder to learn now. 2nd edition was weighty but it was also plain to understand, things like Wargear cards and vehicle Datafax sheets also made the more specific rules easy to access when needed.

With the later editions it seems like they tried to simplify the game, but then just made it more complicated by adding a whole bunch of exceptions to the simplified rules, and then exceptions to the exceptions. Then finally hid them all across 17 different books. For example they ditched the movement characteristic, but then they went and gave faster units fleet. They got rid of the weapon damage value, but then they go adding in instant death to replace it, then instant death gets all complicated with cavalry and FNP and TH etc... etc...

I hate having to check rule in 5th edition because it always flipping through the codex, then to a different part of the codex, the to the rulebook, then to a different part of the rulebook. The older games had a bit more redundancy, which wasn't redundant when you wanted to see all the rules for something on one page.

Its a shame because 40k used to be full of rich detail that was lost in the name of 'streamlining'. The game might have been streamlined now, but it certainly hasn't got any easier to learn, harder IMO

Smacks wrote:It used to be that when you bought 40k you bought a complete game (RT, 2nd ed).

Buying 2nd edition didn't get you a complete game. The starter set got you most of the rules and starter army lists, but you still needed to also buy Dark Millenium for the Psychic rules and most of the vehicle datafaxes, and your codex if you wanted to play a complete army.

So if anything, there's less to buy these days, since the core rules all come in the one book rather than as a supplement.

You don't actually have to buy every codex. It certainly helps... but that's no different to 2nd edition.

2nd edition was weighty but it was also plain to understand,

The FAQ section in White Dwarf every month or two for most of the game's lifespan would seem to suggest otherwise...

The core mechanics were relatively easy, yes... but there were an awful lot of grey areas, and each codex release added a few more. Again, just like now

Smacks wrote:Know all the rules? I don't even own all the rules. I don't even own half the rules.

It used to be that when you bought 40k you bought a complete game (RT, 2nd ed). Nowadays having to also buy a dozen+ Codex books just to have a clue what's going on, is just another example of the barefaced shameless money-spinning, otherwise known as business as usual at GW.

On topic: I do think the rules are harder to learn now. 2nd edition was weighty but it was also plain to understand, things like Wargear cards and vehicle Datafax sheets also made the more specific rules easy to access when needed.

With the later editions it seems like they tried to simplify the game, but then just made it more complicated by adding a whole bunch of exceptions to the simplified rules, and then exceptions to the exceptions. Then finally hid them all across 17 different books. For example they ditched the movement characteristic, but then they went and gave faster units fleet. They got rid of the weapon damage value, but then they go adding in instant death to replace it, then instant death gets all complicated with cavalry and FNP and TH etc... etc...

I hate having to check rule in 5th edition because it always flipping through the codex, then to a different part of the codex, the to the rulebook, then to a different part of the rulebook. The older games had a bit more redundancy, which wasn't redundant when you wanted to see all the rules for something on one page.

Its a shame because 40k used to be full of rich detail that was lost in the name of 'streamlining'. The game might have been streamlined now, but it certainly hasn't got any easier to learn, harder IMO

I agree....
I still dont understand how a lightning claw works...

Also, I miss the officer wargear list. It WAS simple, but retards who couldn't read the rules could use them and flipped crap etc. I cannot understand why they would ever have removed it.... Also: I @%$@!%!%$!@$@# HATE the damn codex layouts now I hate having to flip between three or four sections to try and find out what everything does. The codices have a descriptive entry, shortlist entry, and then a wargear section. And then for no clear reason, some units will refer you to the wargear section, while in other codices, they refer you to other unit entries, etc. And the amount of space thats wasted on fluff. at 100 pages and more, the UltraGayrine codex is horrendous. They could fit it into a digest or 40 odd pages and less, yet I have to carry around a flimsy book liable to get torn up...

Actually, I can tel lyou EXACTLY why I don't read the rules: its hard to buy a single rulebook that does not carry an extra 80% of useless text that I have to read through to get the 5 to 20 words that actually explain what something does, how rules work, etc. The first 5 pages of fluff are more than enough. Hell, with the age of the internet, you could probably add a barcode in so people can digitally access all that fluff...urgh....

Oh man.... I work in a law firm, so I have seen that laws are quite clearly structured... it would make sense to write a codex and the rulebook in a similar way, that way at least people using the little one or the big one can refer you both to section 3.D(f), that explains how combat is won... How much easier would it be if section 1 of your codex is overview, section 2 is FOC, section 3 is wargear, section 4 is special rules and section 5 reference sheets...

Actually

HATE the damn codex layouts now I hate having to flip between three or four sections to try and find out what everything does. The codices have a descriptive entry, shortlist entry, and then a wargear section. And then for no clear reason, some units will refer you to the wargear section, while in other codices, they refer you to other unit entries, etc. And the amount of space thats wasted on fluff. at 100 pages and more, the UltraGayrine codex is horrendous. They could fit it into a digest or 40 odd pages and less, yet I have to carry around a flimsy book liable to get torn up...

Actually, I can tel lyou EXACTLY why I don't read the rules: its hard to buy a single rulebook that does not carry an extra 80% of useless text that I have to read through to get the 5 to 20 words that actually explain what something does, how rules work, etc. The first 5 pages of fluff are more than enough. Hell, with the age of the internet, you could probably add a barcode in so people can digitally access all that fluff...urgh....

I spent half a day trying to find out what the 'G48' in my weapons type column meant

poda_t wrote: And the amount of space thats wasted on fluff. at 100 pages and more, the UltraGayrine codex is horrendous. They could fit it into a digest or 40 odd pages

They tried that in 3rd edition... People hated it, so they've gradually gone back towards the 2nd edition style.

fleet of claw wrote:

I spent half a day trying to find out what the 'G48' in my weapons type column meant

well, fine, but someone can spend that same half day wondering at the difference between eternal warrior and feel no pain... or wondering what the X means (which, thank you to the current writers of codices for confusing our sniper weapons with poison weapons......)

insaniak wrote:

poda_t wrote: And the amount of space thats wasted on fluff. at 100 pages and more, the UltraGayrine codex is horrendous. They could fit it into a digest or 40 odd pages

They tried that in 3rd edition... People hated it, so they've gradually gone back towards the 2nd edition style.

I appreciate that the fluff helps the codex, it gives you a flavor of the army, but I dont want to lug a 100 page book around that I have to flip through irrelevant sections to get through. I also don't need to get chewed out for copying GW's codices into a format that makes it much easier for me to get the needed information. As much could be said of the core rule book... so.... people are going to be hard pressed to care about learning the rules when it takes so long to read through them. ( I recall a few of the 3rd edition codices, and they could have gotten a better layout too)


Still, I agree with the above that more players need to get off their lazy ass and read the rules...... but that AOBR rulebook needs to be more ubiquitous, and the giant tome less so.

Capt. Rex wrote:I don't know all the rules of the back off my hand, but I know enough to get by in a game.

I don't mind too much if someone doesn't know all the rules. It's the people who start making up the rules...like 60% of the people at my local GW.

Amen. And Amen. Nothing wastes more time than having to look through the rulebook (or God forbid, their own codex) just to prove to someone that they did indeed just make up their own rule. By that point you haven't accomplished a thing, not to mention it's extremely annoying..

Any rule set that declares '....the most important rule is the(se) rules are not important... '
Are encouraging people to spend thier time learning far more important stuff.

I can learn GOOD games with well written rules (less than 75 pages , ) in less than 2 hours.And enjoy YEARS of playing a game where the rules dont get in the way of actualy playing the game.

Or I can waste YEARS trying to get to grips with a game that uses marketing pamphlets , instead of a rule set.

Guess what I prefer...

insaniak wrote:

Smacks wrote:It used to be that when you bought 40k you bought a complete game (RT, 2nd ed).

Buying 2nd edition didn't get you a complete game. The starter set got you most of the rules and starter army lists, but you still needed to also buy Dark Millenium for the Psychic rules and most of the vehicle datafaxes, and your codex if you wanted to play a complete army.

I think that is slightly unfair, and respectfully I disagree. The game was complete in and of itself. The Codex Imperialis and the black army-list book gave you the background, special rules, wargear options, and points cost for 99% of the units that were available at the time of printing (and many that were still 'in the pipe' or never got models). The same is true for the wargear book.

Dark Millennium was a supplement that expanded the psychic and vehicle rules. Supplement being the key word here, you certainly didn't need Dark Millennium to play the game. You didn't even need it to use Psychics or Vehicles in the game. Granted it was an important source for vehicle datafax sheets, but it was not the only source. Datafax sheets were also printed in White Dwarf and (IIRC) were often included in the box when you bought a Vehicle. Not to mention printed in the Codex books.

The Codex books were obviously nice to have, because they contained the rules for all the newer units and vehicles which had been released after the game was printed. As well as very army specific stuff such as Special Characters. I'm not going to outright say that they were unneeded supplements. It really depended on how fleshed-out your faction was when the game was printed. The Tyranid codex was important, since they only had a handful of units without it. IG was important for all the new tanks. Codex Ultramarines on the other hand brought almost nothing new to the game. Orks and Eldar were quite playable without the Codex, Chaos was also quite playable (though Codex Chaos did add quite a lot of new stuff). Space Wolves was probably a special case, being either entirely supplemental (rules for playing marines as SW) or entirely essential (rules for playing SW) depending on your point of view.

I think what is most important to remember is that you didn't need a Codex book just to know what your opponents army did (with the possible exception of Nids and IG). Yeah they might have a couple of new units and weapons that you needed to ask about, or some expanded rules. But it wasn't like now where you are completely in the dark about all their units, rules, weapons, points cost, or even if their army is legal... unless you also buy their book.

HATE the damn codex layouts now I hate having to flip between three or four sections to try and find out what everything does. The codices have a descriptive entry, shortlist entry, and then a wargear section. And then for no clear reason, some units will refer you to the wargear section, while in other codices, they refer you to other unit entries, etc

There are still people who think BA Vangaurd don't have DoA because it's listed in the wargear section under Jump Packs! Vanguard are particularly annoying to read about, you have to check Wargear for their DoA,Then you have to check Sanguinary Guard for their Glaive, Sanguinary guard then just redirects you to the 40k Rulebook section on Power Weapons, and then you have to thumb through some more to find the bit on master crafting. Why can't it just say in the wargear section exactly what the thing does under "Glaive Encarmine". I think this is half the reason why so many people do seem to end up 'making up rules', it's because rather than the rules being explained for things as you read about them, the books just reference another rule some place else (often in another book) which people then have to either go look up or try to remember (not always correctly).

insaniak wrote:

poda-t wrote:And the amount of space thats wasted on fluff. at 100 pages and more, the UltraGayrine codex is horrendous. They could fit it into a digest or 40 odd pages

They tried that in 3rd edition... People hated it, so they've gradually gone back towards the 2nd edition style.

I like fluff as much as anyone, but I do agree there is an awful lot of waffling in the books. My usual experience looking up rules in my codex is quickly skimming "bla bla bla" through 2 paragraphs to find the one sentence that explains the rule, which more often than not is punctuated by the words "As described in the Warhammer 40000 rulebook". *sigh*

Smacks wrote:There are still people who think BA Vangaurd don't have DoA because it's listed in the wargear section under Jump Packs! Vanguard are particularly annoying to read about, you have to check Wargear for their DoA,Then you have to check Sanguinary Guard for their Glaive, Sanguinary guard then just redirects you to the 40k Rulebook section on Power Weapons, and then you have to thumb through some more to find the bit on master crafting. Why can't it just say in the wargear section exactly what the thing does under "Glaive Encarmine". I think this is half the reason why so many people do seem to end up 'making up rules', it's because rather than the rules being explained for things as you read about them, the books just reference another rule some place else (often in another book) which people then have to either go look up or try to remember (not always correctly).

I share your sentiments. I only found out three weeks ago that Terminators are a)relentless and b)cannot make sweeping advances. These aren't even listed in the normal "wargear" section, you have to look it up in the "armour" section.

However, I don't completely agree with you. I think that, core rules wise, you should know everything or at least know that you don't know everything and thus be prepared to look it up. However, special-rules-wise, if you forget that your boyz have Furious Charge, tough cookies. I will be a sportsman and poin it out if I happen to know this, but if I don't, then it's your problem for not looking it up.

We shouldn't suffer just because you couldn't be bothered to read your codex. You don't have to remember everything but you do have to know what can be found there.

Certain players will not learn the rules as long as you allow this to slide. Some players love to play but find learning all the rules a bore. It is only a problem if you think it is.

I think it is useful for every player to know the basic rules. I don't think anyone knows them all. I learn the basic rules and also the rules for my own army. I don't learn the rules for opponents' armies. I prefer just to trust them in order to make for a more enjoyable game.

If you hate being the guy who has to be the "rulebook" I don't think it is out of line to require other players to learn more of the rules. Kindly encourage them to look up rules during the game that they don't know. This takes longer in the short term but will pay dividends in the long term. Don't just say, "GO HOME AND READ THE RULEBOOK" because they probably won't. Or maybe they will and won't understand it out of context. Maybe they need to learn by playing. If it is the latter, they are more likely to learn it if you let them look it up than if you give them the answers all the time.

You know, I was in this group where one guy was the "rulebook" and the other guy always asked him for rules during the game. The "rulebook" guy was tweaked about it, but the other guy had decided to do it in order to avoid arguments about the rules. He figured - if he always let his friend make all the rules calls, they'd never argue about interpretations! And he was right.

Whatever lets you play a game and has fun is OK for your group. If you are gifted in the area of Rules-Knowledge, it is OK to wear that hat as long as it means a better game.

Just my ten cents.
Solorg
WAAGGHH!!!

Smacks wrote:
Dark Millennium was a supplement that expanded the psychic and vehicle rules. Supplement being the key word here, you certainly didn't need Dark Millennium to play the game. You didn't even need it to use Psychics or Vehicles in the game. Granted it was an important source for vehicle datafax sheets, but it was not the only source. Datafax sheets were also printed in White Dwarf and (IIRC) were often included in the box when you bought a Vehicle. Not to mention printed in the Codex books.

Actually, you DID need Dark Millennium to use Psychics, at least if you actually wanted them to be able to use powers, as the main box neither had the powers nor the Psychic Phase cards.

Although, you forgot 3rd ed in that list. The game ran just fine using nothing but the Black Book and its army lists(they even had variants!).

Platuan4th wrote:

Smacks wrote:You certainly didn't need Dark Millennium to play the game. You didn't even need it to use Psychics or Vehicles in the game.

Actually, you DID need Dark Millennium to use Psychics, at least if you actually wanted them to be able to use powers, as the main box neither had the powers nor the Psychic Phase cards.

Actually, you didn't.

The rulebook had a shortened version of the psychic rules near the back which you could use. It had some basic powers like destroy mind, teleport, psychic shield etc... which all psykers could use, and psychic vomit (for orks). I actually ended up preferring those rules to the Dark Millennium rules for their simplicity.

Sam_theRelentless wrote:However, I don't completely agree with you. I think that, core rules wise, you should know everything or at least know that you don't know everything and thus be prepared to look it up. However, special-rules-wise, if you forget that your boyz have Furious Charge, tough cookies. I will be a sportsman and poin it out if I happen to know this, but if I don't, then it's your problem for not looking it up.

Well personally I do often check and double check rules. I like to go into games as prepared as I can be. I think someone forgetting something that their own army can do is one of the more innocuous errors. The kickers are when people start claiming their units can do something which they can't. It usually isn't because they are TFG, more often they just misunderstood the rule or got it mixed up with something else. Maybe you can also point this out if you know it, but if you don't, then it actually ends up being your problem.

There was a topic I recall recently where someone on the 40k boards was asking for strategies against his friend's Death Company who he was struggling to counter. Then it transpired that his friend was claiming Death Company had 'Fleet' as a USR. I don't know if his friend was cheating, but I think he probably wasn't. The DC Dread does have fleet, but not infantry (perhaps it was a mix up). But again this is another example of where the rules are not explained in the book. You are told they have Black Rage but when you look up Black Rage, you are only given half an explanation, then told that it is made up of two USR and to go 'see the warhammer 40000 rulebook' for the other half of the rule. It does make you wonder why they couldn't have just listed the USRs that applied in the army list, rather than joining and renaming them as something else. It's not hard to see how people can become confused.

Jubear wrote:I have been thinking lately about how many of the folks in my local gaming group/coven dont actaully have a good grasp of the rules for the systems they play.

I bring this up after spending yet another game having to work out nearly everything from combat res to even basic stuff like what my opponent needs to hit. It seems that my local group use me as a "rulebook" of sorts (they all own copies of the rules for everything we play) I finally reached my limit halfway thru a game of fantasy last week and simply refused to work stuff out for the guy I was playing against and as I watched him stumble thru working out a combat I relised that when It comes down to it the guys I am playing about seem ok about dropping $1000 aus on an army but wont spend a night reading a rulebook.

So if your reading this and you know you do this to someone please remember the following

1. If your going to spend hours and hours assembling and painting some uber new unit please take 5 minutes to learn its special rules.

2. Read your fething rulebook.

3. remember the basic statlines in your army I have played marines players who dont know a basic SMs statline...

4. If you are unsure of a rule or need help it takes 5 minutes to post on dakka to get an answer.

You really should mellow out or Life (TM) is going to utterly and royally kick your ass when you're faced with a real problem. Its pushing around toy soldiers making "pew pew" noises. Get over yourself.

You could run some very basic psychic powers using 2nd edition without Dark Millennium, but really you ended up paying large points costs on models that couldn't be fully utilised.

That said the full DM set offered substantially more than is offered in today's 40K rulebook. Yes you get it in the main book and not as a supplement, but that's because there was so much stuff packed in with Dark Millennium you couldn't have got it all in the box. Perhaps it was overload, plenty of people played 40K without it, but it was fun.

filbert wrote:I find the older I get, the less rules I remember!

To be honest, I have given up trying to memorize rules; I've been playing 40K on and off since RT days so the rules I do remember end up getting muddled up with rules that applied two or three editions ago.

I find it much easier to have my rulebook close to hand and well thumbed!

Exactly. I can remember the latest thing but I seemingly randomly pop up things like virus grenades in my head. cooky.

filbert wrote:I find the older I get, the less rules I remember!

Not a problem, that's what the summary sheets are for!

insaniak wrote:

2nd edition was weighty but it was also plain to understand,

The FAQ section in White Dwarf every month or two for most of the game's lifespan would seem to suggest otherwise...

They got a lot of silly questions though, how many times did they answer if Terminators could ride bikes?

it.... Also: I @%$@!%!%$!@$@# HATE the damn codex layouts now I hate having to flip between three or four sections to try and find out what everything does. The codices have a descriptive entry, shortlist entry, and then a wargear section. And then for no clear reason, some units will refer you to the wargear section, while in other codices, they refer you to other unit entries, etc. And the amount of space thats wasted on fluff. at 100 pages and more, the UltraGayrine codex is horrendous. They could fit it into a digest or 40 odd pages and less, yet I have to carry around a flimsy book liable to get torn up...

Indeed.

I would love to see 40k develop an application like IBodger for Warmachine.

Rules question or don't know what something does? Type it in the IPad, pull it up a second later.

Seriously, whomever programmed IBodger---you rock.

Smacks wrote:... you certainly didn't need Dark Millennium to play the game.

Well, unless you wanted to play 40K with... er, pretty much anyone else.

I think what is most important to remember is that you didn't need a Codex book just to know what your opponents army did (with the possible exception of Nids and IG).

I think your perception is perhaps a little tinted by your being more familiar with those rules. Because there were just as many special rules in the 2nd edition codexes as there are in today's version. All the black codex gave you in most cases was the base statline and weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:They got a lot of silly questions though, how many times did they answer if Terminators could ride bikes?

I don't know, how many times did they answer that? I recall it coming up, but don't remember it being repeated.

I'm a bit of geek (shocker) and make up cards for all my units so I have the stats ready to hand and know exactly what each one does. It should make it unnecessary to take the army book, but there's always some fether who wants to check the wording

Smacks wrote:

insaniak wrote:
HATE the damn codex layouts now I hate having to flip between three or four sections to try and find out what everything does. The codices have a descriptive entry, shortlist entry, and then a wargear section. And then for no clear reason, some units will refer you to the wargear section, while in other codices, they refer you to other unit entries, etc

... you have to check Wargear for their DoA,Then you have to check Sanguinary Guard for their Glaive, Sanguinary guard then just redirects you to the 40k Rulebook section on Power Weapons, and then you have to thumb through some more to find the bit on master crafting. Why can't it just say in the wargear section exactly what the thing does under "Glaive Encarmine".

This.
I bought the BA rulebook with the hope of bringing my old BA back onto the table. The organization of codicies is a huge hurdle to learning the rules. Why on earth should you have to look at wargear, fluff, special rule, and army list sections and then find out you have to look at the fluff section for another unit all to find out how a given unit functions? It's rediculous!

This kind of mess is abosolutely unacceptable for a games company with as much experience in game publishing as GW. Each unit should have an army list entry with the name of all wargear and special rules noted. There should be one special rule section and one wargear section to which one can refer for all Special Rules and Wargear respecitvely. Most importantly, rules should be kept the feth out of fluff entries, especially when they apply to more than one unit and are only listed in one unit's entry.

The unit description/Fluff section of the codex is like reading an advertisement where each unit has a narrative and a special rule to entice you into buying that unit.

insaniak wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:They got a lot of silly questions though, how many times did they answer if Terminators could ride bikes?

I don't know, how many times did they answer that? I recall it coming up, but don't remember it being repeated.

More than once I thought, but I remember them commenting that they'd been asked numerous times so had to lay it to rest.

A good one was when they had to confirm that special character Durthru the Treeman was actually a treeman and had to follow treeman rules.

Kinda like when they clarified the Doom of Malanti is a zoey.