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Emperors Faithful wrote:What I mean is, this particular doctrine, especially the reasons behind it, contradicts the rest of 40k sources.

If the GK were doing to prevent some sort oftain that deamons invariably pass on that would make more sense, but to kill witnesses becuase of the knowledge of the existence of deamons seems silly, especiall when that knowledge is actually pretty common.

The knowledge of the Daemon is not a common thing amongst the Guard or normal population of the Imperium.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:What I mean is, this particular doctrine, especially the reasons behind it, contradicts the rest of 40k sources.

If the GK were doing to prevent some sort oftain that deamons invariably pass on that would make more sense, but to kill witnesses becuase of the knowledge of the existence of deamons seems silly, especiall when that knowledge is actually pretty common.

The knowledge of the Daemon is not a common thing amongst the Guard or normal population of the Imperium.

You mean the knowledge of the Daemon? Or the knowledge of the Dark Gods and their seperate respective forces?

Becuase the Navy, and indeed all Imperium Space-spanning vessels (including traders) are more than aware of the risks of warp travel, which includes deamonic possession. In fact in Enforcer, ships have policy regarding that, deamonhosts are treated as boarders and passengers are expected to assist in their repulsion. The ship was then "purified" by the Ecclesiarchy, but this didn't involve killing off witnesses. People don't talk about these things lightly, but they aren't executed for simply knowing about it.

acekevin8412 wrote:With coming of their new codex, it seems that Grey Knights, due to their secretive nature, executing all their allies after the fighting. Space Marines, due to the great expense it takes to create them, are spared and only get a mind-wipe. If they resist like the Space Wolves however, they too are executed.

I have a few questions to ask concerning this.

Are all Guardsmen of the participating regiment executed from the bottom of the command chain to the top? Or is it that only the ones that fought get executed?

Also, where do Inquisitors stand in all this? One would think by virtue of their office, particularly Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, that they would be spared but perhaps not?

The present GK codex (p13) seems to imply that the easiest and safest method is kill all winteses but that this is tempered by several things:

1. Valuable and Heroic imperial citizens and soliders are telepathically scoured
2. Available resources and scale - cleansing some Imperial Guard Regiments is doable - killing Logan Grimnar and his Wolves apparently not.
3. Space Marines are indeed usually mind wiped - unless the Chapter is powerful enough (and present in enough strength) or trusted enough

I imagine that often the Grey Knights use the advantage of suprise to kill any who resist in the aftermath of victory when they can be weakened and off guard. If possible I guess they try and kill everyone upto andincluding the officer staff - with the exceptions above. If there are only a couple of Grey Knights left they are probably limited as to what they can achieve. The description of the massacures on Armageddon has changed somewhat as noted in this thread from slavery and sterlisation to execution.

its also ntoable that even in the GK codex the GK don't always kill everyone

Assault on Beroghast (p16) the primatives survive................even though they have seen the GKs

Mr Morden wrote:
I imagine that often the Grey Knights use the advantage of suprise to kill any who resist in the aftermath of victory when they can be weakened and off guard. If possible I guess they try and kill everyone upto andincluding the officer staff - with the exceptions above. If there are only a couple of Grey Knights left they are probably limited as to what they can achieve. The description of the massacures on Armageddon has changed somewhat as noted in this thread from slavery and sterlisation to execution.

I think the slavery and sterilisation of the general populace is still cannon. The execution only applies to those that were in the process of leaving/escaping from Armageddon.

its also ntoable that even in the GK codex the GK don't always kill everyone

Assault on Beroghast (p16) the primatives survive................even though they have seen the GKs

I think they were fighting Xenos on Beroghast, not deamons.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
You mean the knowledge of the Daemon? Or the knowledge of the Dark Gods and their seperate respective forces?

Becuase the Navy, and indeed all Imperium Space-spanning vessels (including traders) are more than aware of the risks of warp travel, which includes deamonic possession. In fact in Enforcer, ships have policy regarding that, deamonhosts are treated as boarders and passengers are expected to assist in their repulsion. The ship was then "purified" by the Ecclesiarchy, but this didn't involve killing off witnesses. People don't talk about these things lightly, but they aren't executed for simply knowing about it.

Well, kinda both.

True they are aware of the dangers of the warp and the denizens there in, but the explanation that they are appendages of Dark Godlike beings isn't

Pilau Rice wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
You mean the knowledge of the Daemon? Or the knowledge of the Dark Gods and their seperate respective forces?

Becuase the Navy, and indeed all Imperium Space-spanning vessels (including traders) are more than aware of the risks of warp travel, which includes deamonic possession. In fact in Enforcer, ships have policy regarding that, deamonhosts are treated as boarders and passengers are expected to assist in their repulsion. The ship was then "purified" by the Ecclesiarchy, but this didn't involve killing off witnesses. People don't talk about these things lightly, but they aren't executed for simply knowing about it.

Well, kinda both.

True they are aware of the dangers of the warp and the denizens there in, but the explanation that they are appendages of Dark Godlike beings isn't

So how would exposure, on the battlefield, lead to that sort of understanding? Surely you would be too busy screaming and shooting at the hellish nightmares to contemplate on the nature of these possible, never-before-mentioned, Dark Gods?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
So how would exposure, on the battlefield, lead to that sort of understanding? Surely you would be too busy screaming and shooting at the hellish nightmares to contemplate on the nature of these possible, never-before-mentioned, Dark Gods?

The Inquisition rounding you up after and saying there's nothing to worry about.

In the infantry mans Primer, Orks are described as being scared off by loud shouting

Pilau Rice wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
So how would exposure, on the battlefield, lead to that sort of understanding? Surely you would be too busy screaming and shooting at the hellish nightmares to contemplate on the nature of these possible, never-before-mentioned, Dark Gods?

The Inquisition rounding you up after and saying there's nothing to worry about.

In the infantry mans Primer, Orks are described as being scared off by loud shouting

Yes, there's definitely propoganda. But that doesn't explain how the existence of daemons, which is fairly wide knowledge (if not their prticular nature) warrants death.

It's the extent of the threat. Amongst the military, sure, most of them know of the existence of Warp-spawn, but the actual scale of the threat and it's true nature would demolish the moral of most of The Imperium, hence the secrecy.

One problem is that the current Codex gives the impression that anytime, anywhere, the Grey Knights get involved, everyone gets killed or gets their minds wiped (not saying that this IS what it says, as that would necessitate cracking open that piece of crap again).

Not only is this basically ridiculous, in terms of resources and scope (how do you ensure that you get every single person you want, including guys on warp-capable vehicles?), it's contradicted by the most emblematic "Imperial vs. Chaos" fight involving GK, the battle for Armageddon. There, the populace wasn't mind wiped, nor was it wiped out. It was sterilized and imprisoned. In addition, this was criticized by Logan Grimnar, and he wasn't silenced.

Plus, if almost no one is allowed to survive with the knowledge of GK vs Daemon fights, why aren't the GK treated like some weird bunch of unknown Space Marines. "Inquisitor! Some Astartes in silver armor have landed. They say that you requested them. Who are these Marines? We have no records of their Chapter identification." Does the Inquisitor not tell them, and allow a story about Shiny Space Marines, or tell them, and then kill them?

Maybe it's not so much contact with Daemons as it is contact with them in the scale of a full-fledged conflict? My impression of Daemons was when they attack, it's literally a Hell on Earth type situation. I didn't think it was exactly subtle.

iproxtaco wrote:It's the extent of the threat. Amongst the military, sure, most of them know of the existence of Warp-spawn, but the actual scale of the threat and it's true nature would demolish the moral of most of The Imperium, hence the secrecy.

This says it better then I did

Da Butcha wrote:
Plus, if almost no one is allowed to survive with the knowledge of GK vs Daemon fights, why aren't the GK treated like some weird bunch of unknown Space Marines. "Inquisitor! Some Astartes in silver armor have landed. They say that you requested them. Who are these Marines? We have no records of their Chapter identification." Does the Inquisitor not tell them, and allow a story about Shiny Space Marines, or tell them, and then kill them?

The Grey Knights are an extension of the Inquisition.

Have the Grey Knights ever had any large deployments in Ultramar?

I could imagine the 'purge' of any citizens of Ultramar being met with some severe arse-kickery by the boys in blue.

Da Butcha wrote:One problem is that the current Codex gives the impression that anytime, anywhere, the Grey Knights get involved, everyone gets killed or gets their minds wiped (not saying that this IS what it says, as that would necessitate cracking open that piece of crap again).

Not only is this basically ridiculous, in terms of resources and scope (how do you ensure that you get every single person you want, including guys on warp-capable vehicles?), it's contradicted by the most emblematic "Imperial vs. Chaos" fight involving GK, the battle for Armageddon. There, the populace wasn't mind wiped, nor was it wiped out. It was sterilized and imprisoned. In addition, this was criticized by Logan Grimnar, and he wasn't silenced.

Plus, if almost no one is allowed to survive with the knowledge of GK vs Daemon fights, why aren't the GK treated like some weird bunch of unknown Space Marines. "Inquisitor! Some Astartes in silver armor have landed. They say that you requested them. Who are these Marines? We have no records of their Chapter identification." Does the Inquisitor not tell them, and allow a story about Shiny Space Marines, or tell them, and then kill them?

Not really, it's The Inquisition, they have near unlimited resources at their disposal, they probably use the planets own supplies to kill them.
At Armaggedon, all Guardsmen who went off-world were tracked and killed pushing to total kill-count up much higher than Angron would have ever managed, which is the ridiculous part. The populace, or those who in some way witnessed the battles were literally worked to death to re-build the planet. No one escaped.
The Grey Knights are treated like a bunch of unknown Space Marines, but they have Inquisitorial support, so cite that when they arrive. Contrary to what you may think, The Grey Knights aren't spotted that much, as their's likely not many people left when they arrive, and they usually get there and leave before any other military even has a chance to mobilize.

This new rule is stupid, Daemons and Chaos Gods are comon knowledge in the Imperium. But I think that Imperials tell their population different story then what is truth about Chaos gods. And I think that have to do something with mental instability in all Humans, Space Marines to. Maybe if you come in contact with Daemons in that number the Grey Knights are fighting, you get mad in some time - and the best course of action is to:

a - Either forget, or
b - Be executed

Because I really doubt that they would just execute anyone who ever came into contact with daemon ( take Cadia for example ). Maybe it's something totally different that ocuurs only after some period of time.

I came to this idea by watching the faith of O'Kais from Fire Warrior game. What happened to him after fighting all that Daemons and Chaos Marines? He start hearing voices and get really sick. Maybe, when some Human survive that kind of invasion, he also start hearing voices over time and start worshiping Chaos or give him life so that Daemon can enter material realm. And maybe Space Marines are different story when it comes to that ( notice that nothing happened to Space Wolves, but they are closely watched. Like they fear some of them may be traitor or something ).

But this is only theory, but it is more logical. To me at least.

SW were always gonna be watched...
The amount of times they have had fights with supposedly friendly forces is absurd.
I don't actually know what you're point is though...

Brother Coa wrote:This new rule is stupid, Daemons and Chaos Gods are comon knowledge in the Imperium. But I think that Imperials tell their population different story then what is truth about Chaos gods. And I think that have to do something with mental instability in all Humans, Space Marines to. Maybe if you come in contact with Daemons in that number the Grey Knights are fighting, you get mad in some time - and the best course of action is to:

a - Either forget, or
b - Be executed

Because I really doubt that they would just execute anyone who ever came into contact with daemon ( take Cadia for example ). Maybe it's something totally different that ocuurs only after some period of time.

I came to this idea by watching the faith of O'Kais from Fire Warrior game. What happened to him after fighting all that Daemons and Chaos Marines? He start hearing voices and get really sick. Maybe, when some Human survive that kind of invasion, he also start hearing voices over time and start worshiping Chaos or give him life so that Daemon can enter material realm. And maybe Space Marines are different story when it comes to that ( notice that nothing happened to Space Wolves, but they are closely watched. Like they fear some of them may be traitor or something ).

But this is only theory, but it is more logical. To me at least.

It's not new. It's been like that since the very origin of The Grey Knights, and as we've discussed, the general population aren't told about Chaos, they simply know of it through old folk tales and a certain amount of Imperial propaganda. The true nature and scale of the threat Chaos poses isn't even truly known by very high ranking members of The Military.

That's also not a theory, it's true. Witnessing a Daemonic Invasion scours the sanity of a normal human, and is harrowing to even those of steely disposition such as regular Space Marines.

purplefood wrote:SW were always gonna be watched...
The amount of times they have had fights with supposedly friendly forces is absurd.
I don't actually know what you're point is though...

Did you read the whole thing?
My point is that maybe the Daemons are doing something to Humans when they are in large numbers. But that the symptoms of that are seeing later ( probably when population flee to another planet ). To make them hear voices and start worshiping Chaos.
I think that is the point why Grey Knight execute everyone who comes in contact with such large number of Daemons.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:SW were always gonna be watched...
The amount of times they have had fights with supposedly friendly forces is absurd.
I don't actually know what you're point is though...

Did you read the whole thing?
My point is that maybe the Daemons are doing something to Humans when they are in large numbers. But that the symptoms of that are seeing later ( probably when population flee to another planet ). To make them hear voices and start worshiping Chaos.
I think that is the point why Grey Knight execute everyone who comes in contact with such large number of Daemons.

It's called Chaos taint.
I don't know what it actually is but that's what the Imperium calls it and it does tend to lead to worshipping chaos.
I did read it but for the life of me i couldn't understand what your point was.
Space Marines are indoctrinated so they are obviously harder to corrupt. Normal people however are not and as a result are far easier to corrupt.
Also witnessing a daemonic invasion would seriously mess with your head...

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:SW were always gonna be watched...
The amount of times they have had fights with supposedly friendly forces is absurd.
I don't actually know what you're point is though...

Did you read the whole thing?
My point is that maybe the Daemons are doing something to Humans when they are in large numbers. But that the symptoms of that are seeing later ( probably when population flee to another planet ). To make them hear voices and start worshiping Chaos.
I think that is the point why Grey Knight execute everyone who comes in contact with such large number of Daemons.

Did you miss my post Coa? Do you always miss the posts which explain things?

Brother Coa wrote:This new rule is stupid, Daemons and Chaos Gods are comon knowledge in the Imperium. But I think that Imperials tell their population different story then what is truth about Chaos gods. And I think that have to do something with mental instability in all Humans, Space Marines to. Maybe if you come in contact with Daemons in that number the Grey Knights are fighting, you get mad in some time - and the best course of action is to:

a - Either forget, or
b - Be executed

Because I really doubt that they would just execute anyone who ever came into contact with daemon ( take Cadia for example ). Maybe it's something totally different that ocuurs only after some period of time.

I came to this idea by watching the faith of O'Kais from Fire Warrior game. What happened to him after fighting all that Daemons and Chaos Marines? He start hearing voices and get really sick. Maybe, when some Human survive that kind of invasion, he also start hearing voices over time and start worshiping Chaos or give him life so that Daemon can enter material realm. And maybe Space Marines are different story when it comes to that ( notice that nothing happened to Space Wolves, but they are closely watched. Like they fear some of them may be traitor or something ).

But this is only theory, but it is more logical. To me at least.

IIRC, in the novel version of Fire Warrior at the end...

iproxtaco wrote:At Armaggedon, all Guardsmen who went off-world were tracked and killed pushing to total kill-count up much higher than Angron would have ever managed, which is the ridiculous part. The populace, or those who in some way witnessed the battles were literally worked to death to re-build the planet. No one escaped.

Well except for Logan and his Space Wolves who stood against the Inquisition on this matter (and IIRC in older fluff he was not the only Chapter Master who objected?) and then walked away in disgust.
Same as an Officio Assassnorium operative would walk away.

The Grey Knights "Kill them All" tends to ignore all of the other fluff where they either fail to appear during a Daemonic incursion or the survivors arre allowed to contonue to serve the Emperor. Although even in the new Codex it says this is the most common but not the only solution..........

Mr Morden wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:At Armaggedon, all Guardsmen who went off-world were tracked and killed pushing to total kill-count up much higher than Angron would have ever managed, which is the ridiculous part. The populace, or those who in some way witnessed the battles were literally worked to death to re-build the planet. No one escaped.

Well except for Logan and his Space Wolves who stood against the Inquisition on this matter (and IIRC in older fluff he was not the only Chapter Master who objected?) and then walked away in disgust.
Same as an Officio Assassnorium operative would walk away.

The Grey Knights "Kill them All" tends to ignore all of the other fluff where they either fail to appear during a Daemonic incursion or the survivors arre allowed to contonue to serve the Emperor. Although even in the new Codex it says this is the most common but not the only solution..........

Yes except The Space Wolves. The rest is simply made-up though. Give me one example where the average citizen is allowed to walk away after seeing a Daemonic Incursion or The Grey Knights.

iproxtaco wrote:Give me one example where the average citizen is allowed to walk away after seeing a Daemonic Incursion or The Grey Knights.

The world of Beroghast.

Grey Knights saved world from Ork WARGHHHH!!!!! When Fire Lords arrived at that world the only thing they wound was a lot of dead Orks. And the population was full of stories about "Steel Saviors".

Are we including Novels - lots of examples - Cain Novels, Guants Ghosts and others.

If its just seeing Grey Knights - the primative population of Beroghast saw them and even told the Marines that arrived later about them.... they were (as pointed out above) only fighting orks but they were not cleansed.

plus I am thinking a lot of the population at the Cadian Gate?

So in order to wipe out the mighty imperium of man.. all the demons have to do is make an appearance on each pl;anet, have one bloodletter pop out and say boo to a billion guardsmen, and the gk take care of the rest? . wait what

Why doesn't the Inquisition just requisition enough resources to invade the Eye of Terror and bomb it flat?

Kilkrazy wrote:Why doesn't the Inquisition just requisition enough resources to invade the Eye of Terror and bomb it flat?

Because that would advance the plotline. In real life (real fake life) they would I agree

Kilkrazy wrote:Why doesn't the Inquisition just requisition enough resources to invade the Eye of Terror and bomb it flat?

The Eye of Terror is unassailable. If you send in 1,000,000 Guardsmen expect 500,000 suddenly insane Chaos Guardsmen to roll out of the EoT in 2 weeks and invade the Imperium.

The Chaos Legions assailed the Eye of Terror OK.