Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:I heard Wayland were able to find a loophole because GWs new terms and conditions were miscast.

SHAZAM

Glad they managed it, if they pull it off and keep it up they'll monopolise RoW orders pretty sweetly, they seem to suggest orders put in before the deadline were exempt from the stupid rules (obviously) so they probably ordered 20 of everything! Restocking is the mysterious bit..

derek wrote:

DaNewBoy wrote:
I think we should be careful about this though... my FLGS won't be able to compete with these prices and could lose some business and perhaps their whole store.

I'm going to stick my neck out and pretend this was a serious post.

Honestly people have been saying the same thing since that crazy fad called the internet showed up. I'm sure any day now the hobby will die along with all of those stores that have been successful for the previous years and years that the internet has allowed consumers a choice in where they spend their currency. After all, we know that Games Workshops new European Sales terms, and the US internet sales terms before those, were the magic band aids that erased the internet retailers from existence and made it safe for the FLGS to "compete" in Jervistopia, erasing any and all problems they faced since the big bad internet forced them into new ways of doing business.

For a more serious reply, when I decide where to spend my money, I take into account what my FLGS offers me as a consumer. For example, two of my local stores provide a 15% discount on GW product, a place to play, very nice tables and terrain to play on, and events where I can play with my toy soldiers with others. I don't often feel the need to shop overseas other than during vouchers because I see the everyday savings offset by what I'm getting from my local store. I do however want the choice to be there for me to do so. Just like I want the choice to order from across the state at Miniature Market, and save 25% off retail when I'm making a big order.

The fact is, the guy who runs my FLGS is not running a very successful business. The demand is there, but to maintain his brick and mortar store he has to mark up prices slightly. He has another job besides the his store he works to pay the bills and I bet without that job the store wouldn't survive. He has a regular crowd of about 15 a day that come in and play games, but that in and of itself isn't generating revenue. Sure they'll by a glue here or some candy there, but in general retail space to just play games is a losing business.

He already has closed the store Mondays and Tuesdays because he can't afford to keep it open everyday of the week anymore. I know this is a capitalist market and the week must die so the strong survive, but if the store goes, I don't have anywhere to play anymore. I am already living paycheck to paycheck myself and I have to save every month to afford a new box of lootas or a meganob.

I know I could probably add you not caring to my list of woes, and I completely understand. I just thought it was worth mentioning that there are stores like my FLGS that this wouldn't be the best news for.

sarcastro01 wrote:I love how everyone thinks they're besting GW and found some magic loophole.

I agree with this too. I would imagine Wayland have renegotiated the deal that they have with GW. Any company that can offer substantial revenue to another company is always going to be willing to negotiate. I seriously doubt that Wayland have found some clever loophole and gone in and pulled the rug out from under GWs feet because if they had GW could just change the terms and conditions again to allow them not too, they already did it once.

RandyMcStab wrote:Glad they managed it, if they pull it off and keep it up they'll monopolise RoW orders pretty sweetly, they seem to suggest orders put in before the deadline were exempt from the stupid rules (obviously) so they probably ordered 20 of everything! Restocking is the mysterious bit..

I don't think that monopolies are a good thing at all. GW's monopoly is what started this stupid situation in the first place. I am in many minds about this, I don't want to see a UK company (Weyland Games or Maelstrom) get stuffed by GW. At the same time I'd rather support my local GW shop because it's a friendly place that usually has what I want, I can also get my GW stuff sent there cutting out our crappy postal service. I don't like to see bricks and mortar FLGS go out of business either although that's tougher in the UK as they have direct competition from GW shops. I also dont like seeing gamers getting shafted.

It would be easy to say that this is all GW's fault but even if they hadn't unleashed the Spring from Hell there would still be the pressure of the internet stores crushing FLGS. I'm intrigued about how Weyland Games will restructure to supply product to the rest of the world and I will be interested to see if other companies follow suit. Internet commerce is still relatively new, and I am wondering how long it will be before GW pull the rug out from under everyone's feet and start to sell direct at competitive prices.

Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

It isnt "just" to up profit margins for GW, the stated aim is to increase the %age spent within Aus, benefitting that regions gaming stores.

Levi has done this since the early 90s

I don't believe Wayland has negotiated a deal. GW created the whole embargo situation because they honestly believe that they will lose less Australian customers than they gain revenue from those customers buying at AUS retail. If even a single company got around the embargo, there is no reason to have an embargo at all, and then they set themselves up for another fall by having too much for their Australian business relying on a single customer.

I'm not a lawyer, but I assume GW can't just change the terms and conditions whenever they want. Plus, comments from Wayland about needing to keep the stock separated seem to imply a work around.

@DaNewBoy. No offense, but your FLGS just sounds like a bad business and his woes have nothing to do with GW. Running a gaming store is rarely going to be a lucrative business. If he can't afford to pay his own wage at the store, he's doing something wrong. If he needs another job to prop up the store, he's doing something wrong. Perhaps he should act like many gaming stores and charge $5 to play on the tables. It sounds like he is doing the typical thing that makes gaming stores shut down, ie, just running it like a club.

Furthermore, US retailers don't really have much to complain about compared to AUS retailers. Sure, he might be charging 20% more than his competitors. Australian retailers are forced to charge 100% more than their internet competitors. They would have to sell at a loss to compete with Wayland - they can't actually buy stock that cheap from GW. Hell, even GW staff in Australia who get a 50% discount still find Wayland cheaper. All AUS retailers want is to pay UK trade prices and charge UK retail prices.


I'm curious though, if Wayland is somehow getting their stock from another retailer, what is preventing Australian retailers from sourcing their stock from Wayland (or some equivalent?) That way they could effectively pay UK trade prices + taxes and still come out far far ahead.

DaNewBoy wrote:
I just thought it was worth mentioning that there are stores like my FLGS that this wouldn't be the best news for.

See, I just don't get how this is any different than the way things were prior to 14 days ago. Has the local shop seen a boom in business in the last 14 days? I somehow doubt it has if the owner is already marking items above the MSRP and expecting customers to swallow the cost of his failing business instead of just ordering from GW direct at that point, or from any of the number of online stores in the US that aren't restricted from selling to US residents. The change in European trade terms didn't affect the US for the most part since we have in country retailers selling at 25% off or more.

It's not like this "news" is new. It's a return to the status quo that GW tried to upset 2 weeks ago.

Vermillion wrote:Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

I'm not sure you have your facts right here... wages are higher here by a reasonable amount (avg wage is ~60K AUD here, whereas UK avg wage translates to about 40K AUD)* but our living expenses are proportionally higher. I'm on both Tesco's and Cole's online stores and Tesco seems quite a bit cheaper for everything I've checked so far, after factoring in exchange rate. Coles brand bread is AUD 0.23/100g, whereas Tesco brand bread is AUD 0.14/100g... Think twice before you emigrate: its a lovely country, but all my British friends here are lamenting about how much more expensive everything is.

But that's waaaay off topic. What I meant to say is, I love you Waylands!! Even though GW pissed me off so much that I'm not buying anything from them anymore and instead will buy Distopian Wars, thanks for sticking it!!

Given the decrease in discount I almost have to say that the buying from a third party idea would be the easiest way to get around it. Given that they need to keep their stock separate and the discount is going down a bit seems like they just buy from some other entity other than GW and since the product did not come from GW their silly rules will not apply.

Clever on their part and they more than likely are not losing any money, the extra cost is rolled into the lessened discount but because of GW's crazy pricing it's still tons cheaper than buying local for the people in AUS.

Flashman wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:hmm I think I see how they are doing this, it's smart, but best of all good prices around the globe!

Care to share? Or are we going to be all mysterious?

I think its fairly obvious. GW's controlling retailers through its terms of sales. While the idea that Wayland has negotiated special terms is plausible, it seems unlikely given how they've stated they have to segregate their RoW stock. The fact that they're doing this means its likely coming from a non-GW source. I believe that their buying their stock for selling in Europe directly from GW but that their RoW stock is being purchased through a distributor. Wayland probably isn't getting as good a discount on the RoW stock, but it doesn't carry the GW terms of sales, since they aren't purchasing it from GW.

Weyland Games wrote:

Q. Will I have to use some third party shipping/broking service?
A. No, your order will be handled completely by Wayland, and we will be fully responsible for getting your order to you as we are now. There is no need for mail forwarding services to be used.

thats how i would do it, and thought how they would do it.

Weyland Games wrote:
Q. How are you achieving this?
A. Complicated, this is also commercially sensitive. However in the first instance, we will utilise stock that we had on hand prior to the "conditions of sale" changes. We moved the stock when the announcements were made as we had the "plan" quite soon after we were notified. This stock is finite. How we replenish is sensitive, but it is coming.

In other words are using a third party front company to buy GW stock. That company will remain anonymous so whe GW respond by refusing to sell to us we will not be affected.

Weyland Games wrote:
Q. What will the pricing be?
A. Until we run out of the stock we have on hand, the pricing will be identical as now. Once the replensihment stock has arrived the prices will be slightly higher as there are additional costs involved. But we will continue to offer at least UK RRP with a 10% discount.

Confirmation of above. The third party front company will require a share of the take, hence even UK customers will not get the full discount expected. This strongly induicates that GW will shortly refuse to sell any more stock to Weyland Games. However they will find it impossible to force thord party companies to disclose if they are reselling to Weyalnd Games, or other companies selling beyond the bounds set by GW.

GW once they realise what is happening will demand that sellers do not resell to third parties trading outside the bounds st by the company. They can legally do that, which means that for this to work som e of GW distributors will have to flat out lie to them. This will help Weyland Games short term, but is bad business practice it also requires complete secrecy on the part of the third party supply companies and will hurt those companies which are trying to honestly trade with GW will begin to suspect everyone and may kneejerk.

I much prefered the dismissed option of an open third party shipping service under the aegis of a club sold to within the UK.

I think that makes it sound alot more decietful than it likely is.

Orlanth wrote:Confirmation of above. The third party front company will require a share of the take, hence even UK customers will not get the full discount expected. This strongly induicates that GW will shortly refuse to sell any more stock to Weyland Games. However they will find it impossible to force thord party companies to disclose if they are reselling to Weyalnd Games, or other companies selling beyond the bounds set by GW.

GW once they realise what is happening will demand that sellers do not resell to third parties trading outside the bounds st by the company. They can legally do that, which means that for this to work som e of GW distributors will have to flat out lie to them. This will help Weyland Games short term, but is bad business practice it also requires complete secrecy on the part of the third party supply companies and will hurt those companies which are trying to honestly trade with GW will begin to suspect everyone and may kneejerk.

I much prefered the dismissed option of an open third party shipping service under the aegis of a club sold to within the UK.

Either way, what is the possibility that GW lets this slide? I highly doubt they will let this happen.

Trasvi wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

I'm not sure you have your facts right here... wages are higher here by a reasonable amount (avg wage is ~60K AUD here, whereas UK avg wage translates to about 40K AUD)* but our living expenses are proportionally higher. I'm on both Tesco's and Cole's online stores and Tesco seems quite a bit cheaper for everything I've checked so far, after factoring in exchange rate. Coles brand bread is AUD 0.23/100g, whereas Tesco brand bread is AUD 0.14/100g... Think twice before you emigrate: its a lovely country, but all my British friends here are lamenting about how much more expensive everything is.

But that's waaaay off topic. What I meant to say is, I love you Waylands!! Even though GW pissed me off so much that I'm not buying anything from them anymore and instead will buy Distopian Wars, thanks for sticking it!!

The average salary in Australia only seems much higher than the UK because of the relative value of the AUD vs the GBP at the moment. If you go back several years to before the start of the global financial crisis, the GBP was worth a lot more against the AUD.

1st Jan
2007: 1 GBP = 2.48 AUD
2008: 1 GBP = 2.26 AUD
2009: 1 GBP = 2.10 AUD
2010: 1 GBP = 1.77 AUD
2011: 1 GBP = 1.52 AUD

Everyone in Australia hasn't got rich, but their buying power for things they can buy from the UK has gone up a lot.

The problem is caused by the fact that GW have failed to adjust their export prices to reflect the GBP weakening against the AUD. Thus it is much cheaper to mail order GW models from the UK rather than buy them locally.

lukewild1982 wrote:
I would imagine Wayland have renegotiated the deal that they have with GW. Any company that can offer substantial revenue to another company is always going to be willing to negotiate. I seriously doubt that Wayland have found some clever loophole and gone in and pulled the rug out from under GWs feet because if they had GW could just change the terms and conditions again to allow them not too, they already did it once.

So why have Wayland not just said, "We have renegotiated athe contract with GW."
There doesn't seem anything to suggest that they have in the FB announcment.

Somehow the thought of GW playing cat and mouse having to change terms and conditions every 5 minutes is rather amusing.
But even if that is the case, Wayland have only just announced this new system and GW have not had time to react.

I have a sneaky suspicion I know what their plan is...

They will sell GW goods as "Used" rather than New.

They make them used by taking off the plastic shrink wrapping etc.

I could see this being something that would invalidate the RoW conditions that GW set out.

That would seem to be breaking the spirit of the rules.

Grimstonefire wrote:I have a sneaky suspicion I know what their plan is...

They will sell GW goods as "Used" rather than New.

It would also leave Weyland open to question regarding customs fraud. Used good are seperate to new in terms of duty in many countries, making goods 'technically used' on a corporate level may be frowned upon by customs agencies.

GW would of course be happy to claim that the goods were sold to Weyland as new and that they do not approve of, nor had any part in any distributors alleged mislabelling of their product to foreign customs agencies.

Grimstonefire wrote:
They make them used by taking off the plastic shrink wrapping etc.

Individuals can do that as when a product is sold to a end user/third party becomes second hand. But good sold by a distributor to a distributor or retailer are expected to remain new.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Wow. A country where the minimum wage is 50% higher than Britain and the weekly shop costs less then the UK for me by around a third (a friend and I tested this with an aus online grocery retailer website) can still save money on GW products spending a much lower % of their income on models than the UK does. I think I need to emigrate might make GW affordable for me... Wonder if Aus energy prices are lower too so I could save money on my electric bill as well.
Please note however I am in favour of what Wayland is doing as a company restricting where a retailer can sell their products to is pretty damn pathetic just to up that companies own sales and profit margins.

I'm not sure you have your facts right here... wages are higher here by a reasonable amount (avg wage is ~60K AUD here, whereas UK avg wage translates to about 40K AUD)* but our living expenses are proportionally higher. I'm on both Tesco's and Cole's online stores and Tesco seems quite a bit cheaper for everything I've checked so far, after factoring in exchange rate. Coles brand bread is AUD 0.23/100g, whereas Tesco brand bread is AUD 0.14/100g... Think twice before you emigrate: its a lovely country, but all my British friends here are lamenting about how much more expensive everything is.

But that's waaaay off topic. What I meant to say is, I love you Waylands!! Even though GW pissed me off so much that I'm not buying anything from them anymore and instead will buy Distopian Wars, thanks for sticking it!!

The average salary in Australia only seems much higher than the UK because of the relative value of the AUD vs the GBP at the moment. If you go back several years to before the start of the global financial crisis, the GBP was worth a lot more against the AUD.

1st Jan
2007: 1 GBP = 2.48 AUD
2008: 1 GBP = 2.26 AUD
2009: 1 GBP = 2.10 AUD
2010: 1 GBP = 1.77 AUD
2011: 1 GBP = 1.52 AUD

Everyone in Australia hasn't got rich, but their buying power for things they can buy from the UK has gone up a lot.

The problem is caused by the fact that GW have failed to adjust their export prices to reflect the GBP weakening against the AUD. Thus it is much cheaper to mail order GW models from the UK rather than buy them locally.

Average salaries mean nothing all honesty as that includes the higher earning ones, lets go for the majority.
Minimum wage in the UK £5.93
Minimum wage in Aus $15 which is £9.85 roughly according to a currency converter.

So after checking places to live I would be paying roughly the same on rent for better accomodation, after hitting the grocery sites and comparing I'm saving £30 a week on food. Leaves bills really, with that extra income depending on energy and telecommunication bill charges I'd be better off overall.
Now lets factor in averages again. Two adults on that wage, 40 hours a week with 2 kids, one gamer in the house. Sorry but still looks as if currently with costs compared the Australians have it better off with more disposable income. Factor in that the GW products which are the centre of this debate are shipped there and sold by people GW are paying in their stores 50% more I can see why prices would be higher there. I can see why GW costs there are so high given these additional costs and while currency strength might be a factor in pricing abroad these aren't really being looked at and thats before shop rental costs come into it, it's not just a straight conversion which should be looked at.

And rereading this I should add the orkmoticon

Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, or a rant, just me calling it as I see it after seeing page after page on this subject and think people should stop to think of this. I also think people should start a rally against energy companies which is an essential expenditure, not a luxury like a hobby, check your bills for those and see how much that cost has went up. Lets discuss those in off topic perhaps and compare and see who is the eviler company, gw or the energy providers

Hmm... I'm plumping for the 3rd party approach. Be interesting to see if another online company breaks ranks in this manner. In theory, all they'd have to do is sell to each other at cost and then export what they buy.

I can almost hear GW lawyers furiously retyping terms and conditions.

The how and the why I care not.

Keeping my Australian buddies in supply of reasonably priced plasticrack is what's important. I hope this works out for you guys...

Vermillion wrote:Average salaries mean nothing all honesty as that includes the higher earning ones, lets go for the majority.
Minimum wage in the UK £5.93
Minimum wage in Aus $15 which is £9.85 roughly according to a currency converter.

So after checking places to live I would be paying roughly the same on rent for better accomodation, after hitting the grocery sites and comparing I'm saving £30 a week on food. Leaves bills really, with that extra income depending on energy and telecommunication bill charges I'd be better off overall.
Now lets factor in averages again. Two adults on that wage, 40 hours a week with 2 kids, one gamer in the house. Sorry but still looks as if currently with costs compared the Australians have it better off with more disposable income. Factor in that the GW products which are the centre of this debate are shipped there and sold by people GW are paying in their stores 50% more I can see why prices would be higher there. I can see why GW costs there are so high given these additional costs and while currency strength might be a factor in pricing abroad these aren't really being looked at and thats before shop rental costs come into it, it's not just a straight conversion which should be looked at.

And rereading this I should add the orkmoticon

Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, or a rant, just me calling it as I see it after seeing page after page on this subject and think people should stop to think of this. I also think people should start a rally against energy companies which is an essential expenditure, not a luxury like a hobby, check your bills for those and see how much that cost has went up. Lets discuss those in off topic perhaps and compare and see who is the eviler company, gw or the energy providers

Of course, GW prices were 50% more expensive than the UK when the Aussie Dollar was worth far less than what it is now, and if wages had anything to do with the cost of GW models, there would be places in the world where you could buy for far, far, less than UK/US does.

But you said it yourself:

"Average salaries mean nothing..."

Damn right Vermillion.

It's just GW using a favourable exchange rate to reap as much return off of our market as possible ie. another short-term goal. If they were serious about this embargo, they wouldn't sell to Australian gamers via their UK web store. Except they do. So they're a bunch of hypocrites.

I wonder if maelstrom will go for a similar maneuver. Either way, I hope it works out for Wayland and I would buy from them if it does.

AesSedai wrote:I wonder if maelstrom will go for a similar maneuver. Either way, I hope it works out for Wayland and I would buy from them if it does.

Maelstrom have got their own problems at the moment:

Maelstrom website wrote:
Games Workshop's new Finecast range - miniatures that used to be metal, but are now spincast resin - has proved somewhat of a bugbear for the company and, thus, ourselves and our customers. Unfortunately, it appears that we are still limited to ordering only three of each item at a time - which means that we can only order three of each item per week (as Games Workshop only allow us to order from them once per week). They have not yet informed us when this restriction in ordering Finecast products will be lifted.

Thus, we must ask those of you who have ordered Finecast products to be patient, for the delay in sending them has been incurred through no fault of our own. We will of course split any orders that have Finecast products and other items and send those as soon as we can, and your Finecast products will follow as soon as we can get our hands on them.

As well as the above, we must also ask all of our customers - even those that have not ordered Finecast products - to be patient for we are experiencing a heavy backlog of orders thanks to the Games Workshop sale. This has, of course, led to an inordinate amount of customer e-mails to answer, which is taking its time to work through.

We appreciate this is not good news, for we do not like any of our customers to experience delays and customer service is our number one priority, but - to be frank - the sheer amount of orders created in May has exceeded all records and we will need an extra few days to complete them and answer e-mails. We also appreciate that this message could have been delivered to you before now, but we were not told about the restrictions not being lifted on Finecast until yesterday.

We appreciate your understanding and hope that you will continue to enjoy our great service, prices and knowledge in the future.

I have had an order waiting with them for two weeks now and nary a squeak - still processing apparently

You would have to think that Wayland would not do something to jeopardise their dealings with their biggest selling lines?

I'm just thinking of the Maelstrom/Battlefront situation, where the latter threw their toys out of the pram and stopped supplying to Maelstrom. As GW are even more tight-arsed I would have thought they would have even less tolerance than Battlefront to any kind of workaround or loophole?

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Although to be honest, I'm not sure if I would have the stomach to buy GW any more even if Wayland did start supplying ROW again, the companies behaviour over the last couple of years has become so despicable that I couldn't in good conscience buy from them again.

Orlanth wrote:

Confirmation of above. The third party front company will require a share of the take, hence even UK customers will not get the full discount expected. This strongly induicates that GW will shortly refuse to sell any more stock to Weyland Games. However they will find it impossible to force thord party companies to disclose if they are reselling to Weyalnd Games, or other companies selling beyond the bounds set by GW.

GW once they realise what is happening will demand that sellers do not resell to third parties trading outside the bounds st by the company. They can legally do that, which means that for this to work som e of GW distributors will have to flat out lie to them. This will help Weyland Games short term, but is bad business practice it also requires complete secrecy on the part of the third party supply companies and will hurt those companies which are trying to honestly trade with GW will begin to suspect everyone and may kneejerk.

I much prefered the dismissed option of an open third party shipping service under the aegis of a club sold to within the UK.

Good post and I think you're spot on. What I don't understand though----if this is indeed their method---how are they going to keep it secret? When Wayland Games GW orders suddenly fall by thousands of dollars---and a new distributor named Dnalyaw Games suddenly starts placing orders in the thousands of dollars---well you would think GW could hunt that down via secret shoppers and SKUs?

I think GW would be very hard pressed to determine that company X's numbers have dropped Z while company Y's have increased Z unless the numbers were the same every week. And if Wayland basically teams up with another retailer and they sell to each other it would be even more difficult as the companies ordering would not really change.

GW would have to do something like hire a private investigator to find out and even then I'm not entirely sure how GW could structure their agreement to prevent this. I guess they could stipulate that you cannot sell to other companies but in that case the owner of Wayland could just buy a lot of "personnal" property, what he/she does with it afterwards is up to them.

Honestly GW should have known better than to try this. Unfortunately for them it is not the 1980's any longer and the world is opening up more and more.

Kilkrazy wrote:That would seem to be breaking the spirit of the rules.

Hey man, RAW is a bitch.

Good news, let's hope it pans out!

As to ordering Finecast from them- I'm sticking to getting Finecast locally, with all the issues it's had- not sure how easy it would be to get a replacement if ordering it online... plus, it seems the wait time is really long.