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So it's a valid argument, but still psycho babble? Wish I had some kind of silly "Does not compute" image to post.

No side would call for a reroll in system I described unless the die was standing on a corner (45 degree angle) or close to that, or trapped in some strange spot.

With some table setups, it's not always practical to have some box set aside to roll in, especially in an FLGS like mine where there's no extra space on the sides. At best we get some area of the board that's currently not in use, but still has terrain around.

i'm not saying everyone can have access to them, just something we do. often times even the lid to a small of something can work. stops the elusive missing die syndrome as well.


the psycho babble really is just about the human psyche calling out the other player based on their intentions. when its only 2 people and each has a vested interest in the outcome of the die roll, bot would likely call out for a re-roll in any circumstance unless it is uncontestable.

hence, a valid argument, but moot as each would likely as for a re-roll if it was suspect regardless of its roller.

cute, but a gun can be loaded and not cocked.

You can only cock a gun when it is not loaded?
If you can't cock a loaded gun it can't be fired.
Which, let's face it, is not a lot of use.

Swiftly on topic
My intuition is saying flat bottoms are best.

Zero tolerance just makes games too long. The best method I've heard is as follows...

If the dice lands 'cocked', imagine that whatever it is 'cocked' upon was made of ice, and melted. There's your answer. It's ridiculously simple, and always works, and saves lots of re-rolls.

It also saves you from dealing with an opponent who insists upon re-rolling bad rolls because they're 'cocked', even though you both know what the result was....

If the melty test really doesn't work,then the dice is cocked and you get to re-roll it.

For me if its not flat on the table its cocked, thats how my local area seems to play it ... atleast those i have played with.

htj wrote:I hear that's a fairly common system. Personally, we favour the zero-tolerance approach. If a dice is not completely level, it's cocked. Looking to try and get a nice tray to roll in too, to avoid knocking over minis and scenery with dice. I strive for dice purity!

This is how I do it. This squashes all arguments. if the die isn't flat, it's cocked, and you roll it.

A+

malfred wrote:

Infinity uses d20s

Since when has a d20 ever been rolled and resulted in a "cocked" die?

AvatarForm wrote:

malfred wrote:

Infinity uses d20s

Since when has a d20 ever been rolled and resulted in a "cocked" die?

When it's rolled on carpet. Although with hindsight, it was kind of stupid to roll it on carpet.

The die has to land on a flat surface and be clear in the result. If it lands on terrain of any texture or the carpet it should be re-rolled.

That's why we either use an unambiguously flat area at the side of the table or roll into a box.

Wow, I never heard of the test described by the OP... that's a really great idea. I'll keep it in mind if it ever comes up; but when I play I play with actual RL friends so generally there is neither a dispute over a dice being cocked, nor a debate about whether it should be re-rolled - good advice for if I play with people for whom that is not the case.

Kroothawk wrote:Expecting a NSFW slang battle

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:Zero tolerance, it makes everything so much easier. Remember, though, a dice that lands unevenly isn't a "cocked dice". The correct term is "a Swede"

Only in Norway I guess

Nah, we're spreading it around. Already some Danes are in on it, as are a couple of English folks (I hope). The Swedes are, for some reason, slow to take it up. They'll get round to it in the end, though, being the trend whores they are.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Expecting a NSFW slang battle

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:Zero tolerance, it makes everything so much easier. Remember, though, a dice that lands unevenly isn't a "cocked dice". The correct term is "a Swede"

Only in Norway I guess

Nah, we're spreading it around. Already some Danes are in on it, as are a couple of English folks (I hope). The Swedes are, for some reason, slow to take it up. They'll get round to it in the end, though, being the trend whores they are.

Is it true that 'speaking Norwegian' is Swedish slang for throwing up? Is this some kind of revenge?

Bad enough I find myself intetersted in a debate about dice gone askew.
Now it has become a term of abuse for one's neighbours

It is good time to say ta ta to the thread.

It is not abuse. The Swede in question was a notorious roller of crooked dice, back in the days when people played historicals in Oslo.

yeah,

liam0404 wrote:One of his dice rolled onto a bit of terrain, and it was a 6... ...blah blah blah I argued it wasn't...

Sounds like it was a 6...

Howard A Treesong wrote:The die has to land on a flat surface and be clear in the result. If it lands on terrain of any texture or the carpet it should be re-rolled.
That's why we either use an unambiguously flat area at the side of the table or roll into a box.

This sounds to strict, In most games dice roll a bit to far when things heat up and a obvious 6 shouldn't be rerolled just because it's leaning up against a hill!

ArbitorIan wrote:If the dice lands 'cocked', imagine that whatever it is 'cocked' upon was made of ice, and melted. There's your answer. It's ridiculously simple, and always works, and saves lots of re-rolls...

I play ArbitorIan and this is the System we use.
In the above example, it's leaning on a hill, we imagine that the hill melts away and the dice levels out flat, and the result is a 6.
And also this prevents people seeing a slightly cocked '1' and claiming cocked dice. We pretend that the item below it melts... and there you go it was a 1, no free rerolls for you my friend!
melty ice terrain is really good, fair and speeds up games. I recommend that everyone gives this a try.

Vertrucio wrote:Arbitrarily calling/checking on dice by trying to balance a d6 on top of it is just plain silly. It's a silly ritual that can be used to influence the outcome of rolls and games.

Agree'd... What if the dudes really good at jenga! and balancing stuff! or has sticky fingers, or licks the dice?

Vertrucio wrote: What if that die had just landed on a 1-3 instead? You might say you would have still forced him to balance, but that's actually BS. Psychology studies have found that in similar situations, you'll only call things out when it benefits you, and you will do this subconsciously. Just ask yourself how strict you've been on this? I bet you can come up with a decent count of similar rolls you've let slide because it wouldn't cost you the game...

I think you'll find that getting rid of silly dice balancing shenanigans will not only speed up your games and cause less arguments, it will be much more fair. You might even find yourself enjoying just rolling the dice and leaving things where they lie.

ArbitorIan wrote: (melty ice terrain)... also saves you from dealing with an opponent who insists upon re-rolling bad rolls because they're 'cocked', even though you both know what the result was....

I think this is the most important aspect of cocked dice, people only try to call them when it's in their best interests to do so.

Seriously guys Melty Ice terrain For everyone!
it's the way forward!

Panic...

Melty ice terrain is the preferred method for me as well but sometimes this won't work ("Sure, it would be a 6 or 1 if it was level but the thing it's on stopped it from rolling further and being something else if the hill/base/squig wasn't there at all...") so I try stacking a die on top of it and I accept it when others try to do this. If they lean down to table level and gingerly are trying to pull off a Las Vegas magic show level of a balancing act then no, I'm sorry, the fact that you have to be an expert at balancing in order for it "not to be cocked" is proof that it is.

Odd, we've always played it where if it is very widely deviated, it's "Cocked".

If it lands on some terrain (We use Green Felt for Woods, Blue Felt for Water, Brown Felt for roads), and one side is only a centimeter off the ground, it's fair game.

At my FLGS (aka the kitchen table), we call it like we see it. My kitchen table is two rectangular tables pushed together. As such, there is a sizable gap in the meeting place, and dice seem attracted to it. When dice fall in there, they are held completely on edge, making it impossible to determine a number. Those are always rerolls.

However, it the die is only slightly cocked (landing halfway on top of a template comes up often), then we use the face that is pointing most horizontal. Its something like the melty terrain trick, but I've never thought of it that way.

So basically if its too hard to call, we reroll. Otherwise, it is what it looks like.


In other news, what do people do about rolling off the table? I do what the rulebook says, and count it as a fail. This works in my favor a lot, cause my bro likes to put a lot of flourish on his rolls, and sends them off the table. What do you guys do?

I say at the start of my games that if a dice isn't flat on the table then its cocked and I will both reroll and expect my opponent to reroll, that way its crystal clear.

I did have a mate drop 2 sixes on either side of a blast template the other week, they were only slightly cocked but we both knew what we had agreed to so there were no major dramas.

Saying that someone once asked me to reroll a dice that was on top of a army list, just a single sheet of a4, you're taking the piss with that one.

You need to get over the magical idea that because a die was stopped by some terrain piece, that the face that's the topmost face isn't randomized.

The reality is, your roll was randomized the moment it left your hand. If it bounces once and is stopped against the side of a building, or any terrain piece, then that's still a completely randomized roll.

It does not matter if the die could have continued rolling because a random result is still a random result.

And honestly, if you think about it, the dice are being stopped by the table surface, or by microscopic grooves and pitting on the table surface, applying friction that eventually stop the dice from rolling on a smooth surface.

That's another aspect of psychology that you need to get over.

I have used the "one die on top another" check to see if a die was cocked. The problem being that dissreputable foe will take every cocked die that is not to their likeing and when they go to balance one die ontop the other, they place the top die hurridly and in such a way that it falls off. I've seen it done.
I waffle when it comes to when i will or will not accept a roll. I will often accept whatever the die looks like it says so that the game will roll faster. If the 3 is mostly up when the die comes to rest. I accept the 3.

Vertrucio wrote:You need to get over the magical idea that because a die was stopped by some terrain piece, that the face that's the topmost face isn't randomized.

The reality is, your roll was randomized the moment it left your hand. If it bounces once and is stopped against the side of a building, or any terrain piece, then that's still a completely randomized roll.

It does not matter if the die could have continued rolling because a random result is still a random result.

And honestly, if you think about it, the dice are being stopped by the table surface, or by microscopic grooves and pitting on the table surface, applying friction that eventually stop the dice from rolling on a smooth surface.

That's another aspect of psychology that you need to get over.

The problem isn't the lack of randomisation its being able to accurately say what the result it.

If it's obvious what the topmost face is, it's not cocked.

Interesting to see what various view people have on this, we have always played it that if the dice come into contact with a piece of terrain or a model and is cocked, the result is which ever side would be facing upwards should the die have been able to continue it's roll in that direction. I do play with a group of friends however and we rarely disagree on such situations.

I generally dont' care, I just want a person to be consistent.

When I say it is.

I tend to say a die is cocked when there's no definite way of telling which side should be face up. There are certainly cases where it's more obvious than others and in those uncertain instances I ask my opponent for his opinion.

Dice hitting the floor:

We reroll them.
Have the same roll hit the floor more than once, though, and you're in for a HUGE amount of harassment. LOL
Then again, my gaming group is a group of friends, so...

Simo429 wrote:I say at the start of my games that if a dice isn't flat on the table then its cocked and I will both reroll and expect my opponent to reroll, that way its crystal clear.

I did have a mate drop 2 sixes on either side of a blast template the other week, they were only slightly cocked but we both knew what we had agreed to so there were no major dramas.

Saying that someone once asked me to reroll a dice that was on top of a army list, just a single sheet of a4, you're taking the piss with that one.

But, "flat on the table" means "flat on the table." I'd ask you tor reroll it, too (regardless of the die roll).
That's the problem with such a limited scope of acceptability. it can easily get out of hand.

What kind of terrain do you use? In my group, it's often near impossible for a die to land flat on the table. Some of the terrain is GW RoB and some is professional made terrain from Italy. There is little flat space on the RoB and almost none on the italian stuff.
Not trying to nit-pick your rules. Your rules are your business. I'm just trying to show the possible annoyances that can come from something so restrictive.

Eric

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Q: When is a dice "cocked"?

A: When it is loaded.

Wrong. the answer should be: Only when you're ready to shoot.

Yeah, I'm nitpicking here, but it's never the wrong time to note proper firearm safety.

Still, I have to say that even if proceduraly incorrect your answer is far cleverer than mine.

sennacherib wrote:I have used the "one die on top another" check to see if a die was cocked. The problem being that dissreputable foe will take every cocked die that is not to their likeing and when they go to balance one die ontop the other, they place the top die hurridly and in such a way that it falls off. I've seen it done.
I waffle when it comes to when i will or will not accept a roll. I will often accept whatever the die looks like it says so that the game will roll faster. If the 3 is mostly up when the die comes to rest. I accept the 3.

And what I'm saying is that no matter how hard you try to follow that rule and be honest about when you call cocked dice, you're going to end up falling prey to human psychology and there are going to be times where, subconsciously, you will more often than not start calling bad rolls for yourself cocked and checking on them, and good rolls for the opponent cocked as well.

This doesn't mean you're purposely cheating, but just a fact that you'll only be interested enough in rolls that matter to you to look for cocked dice in the first place.

With the way your opponent was checking on every die, and slowing down the game, you can see why I recommend that everyone simply stop using dice jenga, and just take the dice where they fall on the table.

If you can't balance a dice on top it is cocked...to make things interesting one of my buddies rolled a bunch of dice at once and got some to litterally sit on each other on a flat board, so I had to give him the 6 that was under it as it technically passed our test.