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Breeezy wrote:
i dont mind if someone criticises my work but when they go out of their way not only to be rude about it but post an entire topic on it thats when it gets annoying

To be fair, you could have just sent this to him as a PM instead of saying you're the sole reason he started this thread. I do share the OP's thoughts on this matter, even though I wasn't thinking of making a thread about it. Please though, work on your grammar. If you just capitalize letters and use punctuation, people will take your posts a lot more seriously.

Breeezy, aerethan said that this thread is in response to people posting poorly painted figures getting complemented for their work. I believe him. The thread I believe you're trying to reference is that terrible swap shop thread that looks very much like an obvious troll thread.

A person to learn from is Gordon Ramsey. Having just watched all of Kitchen Nightmares, he had 1 major rule to business owners, and I think the same should go for painters. Don't listen to all the positive feedback as all it does is inflate your ego. Listen to the negatives, as they are the ONLY place where you learn what to improve.

I absolutely agree that patting someone on the back over a piece of garbage is anything but helpful. It gives the person false illusions of their skill level and can prohibit them from improving every bit as much as discouraging, negative feedback would. I'm all for constructive criticism, but these comments of "Great job!" and "Nicely done!" are...painful to view when the miniature is in no way deserving of the praise. Plus, as I said, they aren't helpful--very few people are going to attempt to improve if they've been told they're doin' great right where they're at.

Oh, and Breezy, you actually did claim your miniatures were pro-painted...jussayin.

Dark_Omen wrote:
Oh, and Breezy, you actually did claim your miniatures were pro-painted...jussayin.

Come to think of it, that's probably what started me on this whole thing, having just done a little ebay search for pro painted models that made me lol.

I understand to a point what you mean Aerethan, but I do some work with kids that involves art activities.

I always praise them, especially if they are reluctant in the first place. I tend to be more critical of the kids that have a good innate ability to try and get them to push themselves.

But often kids will say, "I can't draw." What they genearlly lack is self confidence as much as ability. Encouragement means they are less reluctant to have a go next time.
They will never become a Titian, but then again, sadly, neither will I. But I will still encourage them to do the best they can and accept their level of achievemnt given their ability.

By continuing to paint people will improve, as Dais I think said. No one improves or gains anything by giving up and letting someone else do it for them.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I understand to a point what you mean Aerethan, but I do some work with kids that involves art activities.

I always praise them, especially if they are reluctant in the first place. I tend to be more critical of the kids that have a good innate ability to try and get them to push themselves.

But often kids will say, "I can't draw." What they genearlly lack is self confidence as much as ability. Encouragement means they are less reluctant to have a go next time.
They will never become a Titian, but then again, sadly, neither will I. But I will still encourage them to do the best they can and accept their level of achievemnt given their ability.

By continuing to paint people will improve, as Dais I think said. No one improves or gains anything by giving up and letting someone else do it for them.

Pretty much the expanded and over-all better version of what I said! : D

But we aren't children. As I said, if you are old enough to post here then you are old enough to take proper criticism.

Dark_Omen wrote:I absolutely agree that patting someone on the back over a piece of garbage is anything but helpful. It gives the person false illusions of their skill level and can prohibit them from improving every bit as much as discouraging, negative feedback would. I'm all for constructive criticism, but these comments of "Great job!" and "Nicely done!" are...painful to view when the miniature is in no way deserving of the praise. Plus, as I said, they aren't helpful--very few people are going to attempt to improve if they've been told they're doin' great right where they're at.

I agree with you there, no sense in saying that, BUT if the painter is new to the hobby or has put all he can into it, you can say "Nice job, I can see what you're trying to do, BUT, if you would like them to look better, try doing this/not doing that..." which is a lot better than just "Nice job" which just lets the painter think they've done everything right and don't need to improve their skill or "It sucks, do it this way" which just discourages them.

^ Yup, pretty much where I stand. As I stated, I'm all for constructive criticism

I was using it as an analogy, but some of the painters are young.

The other point is that not everyone is the same.
Whether you think they should be tough enough to take the knocks, some people are more sensitive than others. Praise works better than the stick.

It should not be a hard thing for someone mature enough to post to simply ignore the (meaningless) "good job" comments.

aerethan wrote:But we aren't children. As I said, if you are old enough to post here then you are old enough to take proper criticism.

Whilst what Chibi said was about experience with kids, it applies just as well to everyone, especially those of the mollycoddled generations. A lot of education is being criticised for creating young people and adults who enter the world fueled by praise. From the time kids can understand basic English, they're showered with praise. In nursery, kids are overprotected and told just how good they all are. In school, this is the same, priase comes thick and fast, because unhappy kids means unhappy parents, and unhappy parents means complaints, and complaints mean lower leaderboard rankings for schools, and we can't have that, oh no, Jim's painting of a turtle-that-looks-suspiciously-like-a-green-blob-prodded-with-a-brush is just as good as Gemma-the-gifted-child's turtle-that-is-instantly-recognisable-as-a-turtle!

Not a harsh word or criticism can be spoken without parents, eager to find out why their precious son is being victimised by the teaching staff for their slower learning ability, lodging furious complaints and all that gak.

This inevitably leads to people who live off praise. People find work and get layed into by their boss for doing something wrong, and they can't cope. They just haven't really experienced criticism before-constructive or otherwise.

Age doesn't automatically decide someone's ability to take criticism, and the generations of people going through the educational systems only go to prove it. If anything, by the time they reach maturity and had the bubblewrap cut away, they're lost without it.

Easing people into something is vastly more effective than lashing out with the flawed justification of them being grown up enough to take it. As a writer, I know that I couldn't take the criticism I recieve now if I was taking a few years ago. Only by learning from what was said by people who encouraged me whilst giving me helpful tips and detailing why I shouldn't do things and how to rectify errors, was I able to accept harsher criticism. There were points where someone would lay into me like a frenzied murderer with a knife, and I have to say it killed my spirit. A novice at anything would be reluctant to try again if some of the stuff that was said about my early work was aimed at them; mean doesn't even begin to describe it.

Trying to force a beginner to get better by criticisng their work as if it was meant to be a Golden Demon entry does nothing for them, and only works against your goal; the greatest harm can result from the best intentions.

I'm not much of a painter. I have little time and less skill.

I'd much rather have someone tell me that my painting skill sucks (and here's a few tips) than tell me it's great...really.. great ... (snicker).

I have won 'best painted army' a couple of times at tournaments, and that was worth more to me than the prize money

I know somebody that has a nerve injury in their right arm, and while you can tell that he has trouble painting, the colors go where they're supposed to and the models are recognizable.
I'm all for encouragement but if your "Blood Angels" army looks like you vomited blood all over unprimed Space Marines don't expect automatic praise.

What I got from the OP was...'whine whine blah blah whine troll, troll".


It's good to be honest about someone's work, but at the same time you shouldn't be so harsh in the fact that you find yourself discouraging people from the hobby. Obviously there are people who have a long way to go, and others who have been here for a while. I myself have posted some pretty bad miniatures when I first started here on Dakka Dakka, and though I didn't know it at that point, they were terrible, though everyone here gave me great criticism and a welcoming hand.

Now I'm not about to win any Golden Demons, but in time I realized myself that I needed to get better, and that my miniatures just weren't really all that good.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is no reason to go off on a rant about someone's paint job and be completely honest, just nudge them in the right direciton, we don't need any **** 'round on Dakka.

aerethan wrote:A person to learn from is Gordon Ramsey. Having just watched all of Kitchen Nightmares, he had 1 major rule to business owners, and I think the same should go for painters. Don't listen to all the positive feedback as all it does is inflate your ego. Listen to the negatives, as they are the ONLY place where you learn what to improve.

Here's a little situation that I have had to witness on MULTIPLE occasions, that I think is very similar....

I have been tattooing for more than 25 years. I like to think that I am pretty good at it, and I have a ton of loyal clients and trophies that help back up that assumption. In the coarse of my career, I have, on occasion, been persuaded to take on apprentices who would like to learn the trade. Some of them kept their egos in check and are currently doing very well for themselves. However, there have also been more than a few who let their 'friends' tell them how great thier work was, allowed their egos to get the best of them and decided, quite prematurely, that they were 'ready for the big leagues'! Most of them didn't last a month. The couple that made it through the first few months, have both told me (years later) that they wished they hadn't listened & had seen the apprenticeship through to the end.

The tattoo industry will chew you up & spit you out without blinking an eye. If you say you can do it, you had better be able to back it ALL up. '

The painting forums might not be on the same level as my chosen industry, but I think the same train of thought still applies. If someone posts a pic of something that is not up to par, rather than giving praise where it is obviously not deserved and taking the chance that complacency might set in, a bit of well worded criticism would not only be more appropriate, but in the long run, more appreciated.

I happen to COMPLETELY agree with the OP on this one.

I think it's just common courtesy, really. When someone says, "Hey," your response shouldn't exactly be " you,," even if you don't like the person, unless you're some asperger's case.

Speaking of honest criticism, though, that oversized sig graphic with nothing but your name plastered in pink combined with the avatar graphic that was spammed on my screen relentlessly while reading this thread is god awful and makes my eyes want to bleed.

Big boy rules, and all that.

Zen2k wrote:I think it's just common courtesy, really. When someone says, "Hey," your response shouldn't exactly be " you,," even if you don't like the person, unless you're some asperger's case.

Speaking of honest criticism, though, that oversized sig graphic with nothing but your name plastered in pink combined with the avatar graphic that was spammed on my screen relentlessly while reading this thread is god awful and makes my eyes want to bleed.

Big boy rules, and all that.

Want some cheese with that whine?

Zen
Aerethan's sig has bugger all to do with the thread topic
Would suggest that you edit your post to remove the inflammatory remark.
Thank you

True.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Zen
Aerethan's sig has bugger all to do with the thread topic
Would suggest that you edit your post to remove the inflammatory remark.
Thank you

Proof that while we can disagree on things we can remain civil.

I'll admit that I started the thread in a fit of passionate rage. The point still stands not to coddle those who clearly need proper criticism and not empty praise.

Saying "Good work" to someone encourages them to paint. However I normally follow up with some advice like thin these paints, add a wash or highlight. Just telling someone that their work is bad discourages them from painting.

Also I don't think there is such thing as a poorly painted miniature. A mini is a work of art and not all people are good as each other. However the time when you straight up tell someone that their army sucks is if they put three dots of different color paint on a marine's shoulder pad to make them "tourney legal." As long as they put effort, a good work is fine.

At first i thought OP was a little in the wrong but looked before i leapt and took a walk through P&M and the painting forums, now i'm gonna have to say i agree with him. This thread may make your eyes bleed but some paint jobs make my eyes bleed and then people compliment it. If it were my blog i'd expect criticism, if you don't get any how will you every improve.

Also i agree massively with the praise and children rant, it's unbeleivably true! The TFG at my LGS is like 17 and he's spoilt as, got a forgeworld keeper of secrets(the huge one) from mummy and daddy, yet he sulks and never wants to play you again if he loses. It's the same principle with painting, get no criticism, then someone with some nads tells you it could be improved and they sulk and whinge.

OP's point wasn't about attacking the artist with 'It sucks' or 'It's rubbish' it's about constructive criticism, which in turn helps the artist.

Imagine if the wright bros didn't get any feedback from the first plane, they go home thinking it's the bees knees and planes never advance past that because they did a 'good job' so everyone must be happy with it.

Mini rant done

What is wrong with encouraging people? If they have just started painting, imagine all the replies of people pointing out mistakes, and how you would feel. Personally if i got all "pointers" i'd start thinking grey armies were a good idea. Painting in no way should ever be criticised like list building, painting takes time, list building takes a couple of minutes looking at a book.
I'm starting to think that geeks not being able to encourage people without sticking a negative in there, is why geeks don't play team sports .

Depends on the intent of the post.

Every website I have ever posted photos of finished products up, from armoring to modeling, I've always been starting out, I ask for the criticism so I can improve. Not everyone does that, if they post up a garbage mini, but don't ask it's pretty simple, keep your mouth shut if you can't find a single positive thing to say. If they do ask, give advice in a way that doesn't make you come off a pretentious neckbeard living in his parents house. Just be polite.

Saying something equivalent to "This model sucks, give up now" is doing the hobby no good, that person isn't going to improve, neither are the people who are lurking the thread, if anything it's going to spook them off of posting their own work so we keep seeing the same train wreck armies in the FLGS, because they have never gotten that input.

But I do agree with OP partially, if something is a giant blob of pain and glue, don't lie and tell them great job, look for something done well, otherwise if you happen to know why it's jacked up (thick paint, to much glue, wrong paint type, ect) point out how they can fix it. If they don't want to listen to the advice and refuse to take the criticism, then just ignore the thread, that person isn't going to listen anyway but by tearing them down those newbies reading that thread are going to think "Well screw putting my work up if this is how Dakka is going to respond".

The phrase "If you haven't got anything nice to say" springs to mind...

The point at which I stop saying 'nice work', is usually when a work fails to blow me away completely with its pure god-like awesomeness (It happens more than you might think). But there is a big difference between not leaving any comment, and leaving a negative comment.

Positive encouragement is often more helpful than brutal honesty. Despite what people might say, very few of them are actually looking for "constructive criticism". For most people, all they really want is some approval and recognition for all their hard work. You might be surprised how much a few kind words of encouragement could mean to someone. For us (the viewers), we get to see lots of other people's awesome collections that took them ages, so it's a fair trade.

Of course there are always a few people who are less interested in seeing cool stuff, and encouraging others, and more interested in trying to make themselves seem important by making others feel small. But those guys are douche bags, don't be one of those guys. If you don't like someone's work, then you don't have to look at it, and you certainly don't have to comment on it. If you feel someone is getting recognition they don't deserve, Rather than wasting your time deriding them, go help out someone who you think does deserve recognition. If you want to help someone improve, then help them. If you're not sure how to help them, then don't discourage them by telling them that they are hopeless. Leave them be, someone else might know just what advice they need.

Smacks wrote: Despite what people might say, very few of them are actually looking for "constructive criticism". For most people, all they really want is some approval and recognition for all their hard work.

Bingo.

my painting is table top quality........Ive posted my pics up plenty of times........its great to get feedback.......but......just as great job is useless and i dont like that is useless so isnt just a plain out well you need to do this this and this to make them better..........I have a Degree in Creative Studies (works well with teaching) long story short they teach you to tell them what you like, what is wrong, and how it can be fixed..........but you have to rember that some things are truly subject to opinion and should be avoided (ex. pink and purple marines) even though they might truly be an eyesore it is there creativity and stomping it can make one less person in this hobby

aerethan wrote:But we aren't children.

Some of us are.

10-12-year olds aren't an uncommon sight on the boards, since that's the age that a lot of kids are getting into the game.

insaniak wrote:

aerethan wrote:But we aren't children.

Some of us are.

10-12-year olds aren't an uncommon sight on the boards, since that's the age that a lot of kids are getting into the game.

I started the hobby when I was 15. You know what I did then? I went online(which was still a rather small place at the time) and found my local fantasy group. When I showed up with my models, I looked at everyone else's models and asked how I could get my painting up to snuff. I didn't ask them if they thought my painting was good, because I immediately knew that I was years away from being at the standard they were at. No one said how nice my models looked, they were honest. Paint was thick, my linework needed improvement, and my mold lines were terrible.

I sought out ways to improve, I yearned for criticism. And at just 15.